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Lord Zeb
10-17-2009, 11:23 PM
During the months that have passed since the game was released, I have been contributing on this forum in many posts, and now I think I should gather my most appreciated posts and wisdom gleaned not only by my own work, but also what I agree with in others.

For a more dynamic and balanced battlefield, what I think is needed (on top of fixing Mounts, Magic and possibly a bit more realism about lugging around 300 kg in your backpack) is the following:

Let Armour influcence Stamina drain from Sprinting, Jumping and Swimming:





Stamina drain increase while Sprinting in Armor, that grows quite hard in heavy plate armors, that is reducable but not eliminatable by skills. Sprint should be extremely taxing for people in armor, especially at low Armored Combat skill levels, about the same level as the Armour penalty to Magic, or worse. That way studded leather would be a good choice for people for people that wish to remain mobile in combat, while those wishing to fight in rank and file should go for heavier metal armor... or realise that they drain stamina too quickly and then dies when they cannot attack or parry properly any more.


Same stamina penalty for armour should go to Jumping as well.


Swimming should also have Stamina drain, where regular swimming drain while naked should be about equal to normal stamina regeneration (at Swimming 100 skill without food or buffs), and both armor and encumberance increasing this quickly. Only Swimming skills (not Armored Combat) should affect this stamina drain. And on top of this Sprint stamina drain, if one swim quickly. If you do not have any stamina left, you sink. One can always remedy this by removing armour and stop swimming to rest a bit, to survive. (That is, Armour encumberance affecting both regular and sprint swimming stamina drain.)


A value showing the penalty should be displayed beside the Melee, Archery and Magic penalties in the Character display, with the title Movement, and a small explanation that it is regarding Sprinting, Jumping and Swimming stamina. Information of the penalty and it's harshness is needed to change the behaviour of people, as otherwise they will just do as usual and merely wonder where all their stamina went.


And to add to this even more:





Mounted Riders’ Stamina should be unaffected by wearer's armor or lack of such of regarding Stamina drain. However, adding Stamina to Mounts for Sprinting and Swimming, letting heavily encumbered Mounts drain more Stamina, would be interesting though. [Edit: Battlehorns should of course have a higher Encumberence limit, being so large and strong.] Implementing Sprint for Mounts would then let people on light armor have some advantage even on horseback if fleeing, while heavily armored people or people loaded with lots of loot probably won't catch them.


Retain the modifiers and fizzle rates from armor regarding casting of spells and shooting of bows, to keep mages and archers from starting to use too heavy armor. And then add increased Mana cost while in heavy armour! This should be about as large as the modifier on damage, and if not voluntarily making people changing armour, at least limit their magic use involuntarily when their Mana runs out. (Discussed in more detail in Poll: Reworking the Magic Damage System (”http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=211908”).)


[Edit: For those that worry about people in heavy armour lacking healing ability without magic... One shouldn't be able to heal much in heavy armour... one should have a Healer buddy that one run with, healing you up, and have the power to do so. Healing is mainly about Magic, and as space is limited, I address that question in Poll: Reworking the Magic Damage System (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=211908), where I state that Healing needs a boost. And that include Healing Potions, which is not armour dependant healing.

However, if one think that people in heavy armour should be doing such things there is an alternative that could be implemented: Giving Healing & Buffing spells Spell Options of removing Fizzles & reducing Encumberance penalties. A bit of a "Paladin/Cleric" magic option. Would remove the problems people have with healing in heavy armour right away.]



Change allowed Movement on the battlefield:


Archers and Mages not able to Sprint and shoot/cast spells at the same time, to not totally outmaneuvre the now less-sprinting heavy armored ones. Unless they possibly buy special skills/options for it, such as Jumping and casting spells, but with 30% reduced power. Putting Sprinting & Jumping into the same "allowance" would nearly eliminate Kiting, letting Melee recover the battlefield in it's proper glory!


Slower turning speed when Sprinting to remove the "headless hen technique". One can turn pretty quick while sprinting in RL, but not 180 degrees and then move full speed the other way. Some kind of physics engine would be nice, including acceleration and deceleration effects before full speed is attained. Now… there already is one implemented in DFO! Want to know where?

Jump into a body of water, sprint swim at full speed, then turn 180 degrees. Huh? What's that? Your movement don't instantly change direction?

In water, even if you make a 90 degree turn, it takes you time to accelerate back up to full speed. So, let’s apply this motion system apply to sprinting/running!

Right now, people can change direction instantly whilst both running and sprinting. It would be good if you maintained momentum as you do in water and couldn't change direction instantly. The greater the angular change in direction, the longer it takes you to get back to full speed. And instead of simply stopping to Sprint while moving sideways, let’s just use this inhibitor instead! (No Sprint speed sideway movement, but forward movement by sprint speed and sideway movement from A & D buttons should be combinable.)


Add “Combat Dodge” movement while pressing the Q and E buttons while not Mounted, to grant those buttons some use at all times. Combat Dodge movement should count as Sprinting in regard to Stamina loss, reduce Hitbox, as well as making an evasive movement that will vary depending on what other movement buttons are pushed together with it. (Length of movement increased if simulataneously Sprinting, direction influenced by other movement buttons.)



Change how Armour protection works, to make people want to wear armour even more!





Have armour protection rates varied more. Cloth and leather type armors protect more against magic, especially cold damage, fire DoT and electric damage. (They isolate well, while metal is a good conductor of both temperatures and electricity. And even if cloth is easily drenched in acid, treated leather and non-chain metal armor repells it fairly well.)


Would also be good to have Robes come in a few protectively enchanted versions, for even more variation. To let Robes be able to be Enchanted with even 3 slots (like Weapons) to make Transmuted Robes, would give Robes the edge over regular Armours it needs to make them competitive against armours, balancing this even with a great monetary cost. Having Transmute Robes boost specific Magic schools will also be good for Magic Role specialization and magic balance by people specializing at using specific schools.

Transmuted Robes and Transmuted Staffs should boost different things, to make the effect stackable without being too unbalancing. Would be good to let Transmutation of Robes add Casting Time modifiers and Resistance to the specific element damage (Magnitude boost for Spell Chanters?) to the robes. These bonuses should also stack with other enchantment bonuses.


Make even a few pieces of low-grade armor be worth wearing, so people will stop running around naked. Increase the bottom threshold of armor protection values. All armor protection levels should be boosted, but not percentually, but by an equal degree, percentually increasing the low-grade armors the most.


Making armour even more protective by changing the way Resistance ratings work, as they now protect more against low-damage attacks while leaving high-damage attacks almost undefended against by comparison. Just adding a 5% reduction in damage per point of Resistance, to grant a resistance bonus that scale with damage, would solve that problem.


Implement Heavier Mounts, to rule the day by being able to take down Archers, making Mounts vs. Archers be a valid strategy as it was in the medieval days. Mount Armor to train Heavy Mounts should be introduced. These could be slowed down to Sprint speed, making ordinary but more vulnerable mounts a little bit faster. Even heavier types with Battlehorn variants and other new Mount types to come could also be introduced. Have described this other threads, for instance in Making mount combat even more awesome (”http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=3640459&highlight=%22Mounted+combat+powerful%22# post3640459”).



This way even a few pieces of "inferior" armors will give a substantial amount of protection, so people have less incentive to run around naked. Choice of armor will become strategic, where static rank-and-file or mounted combat favors heavy armor, mobile barbarians and archers favor light armor, and magic users use Bone armor or Robes.


Hence 6 types of equiment will be promoted, balanced against each other:





Heavily armored Tanks, that stands around in formations protecting the line, moving decisively when needed. Is also where you make Equpment and Skill levels count, bashing companies into each other, grinding until you see who is the toughest; as well as protect others behind the line such as Mages from being attacked in Melee. Being stationary makes them good targets for Magic, both Buffs/Heals and AoE damage, so Mage support behind the line will count.


Lightly armored Scirmishers, melee fighters in light armor dashing around on the battlefield doing damage where they feel it is best suited, but taking damage easily if they cannot run away fast enough. Have trouble making a dent in a Tank line, but decent at taking out Archers & Mages (even if vulnerable against them).


Lightly armored Archers, running away when the Tanks come close, and then turning and shooting when they think the opposition is low on stamina or just far enough away.


Robed (or Bone Armored) Mages, standing away from the line and blasting the masses with magic from afar, protected by their Robes enchantments from the opposing mages & archers. (Unless the opposition's magic is stronger.)


Light Cavalry (unarmored Mounts) taking out archers or mages if they do not get shot down before they reach them. (Which they then at least will have a chance to, as the archers and mages won't constantly sprint, keeping the distance and then jump and twist-shoot you on the run.)


Heavy Cavalry, riding down gatherings of enemies making formations to scatter, keeping the Archers on the run, and able to stand the beating while trying to catch them.


This will still let people mix these roles as they seem fit, by accepting the costs in efficiency, and investing/training for long times to ease the limitation costs by skills and magic. It is for instance easy to change between Tank and Cavalry roles, as well as combining Scirmisher with Archer, or even Mage, even if you need to get the skills and gear to be efficient, training in different areas. And if one want to, one can be a Tank/Archer or Tank/Mage with Unburden spells, food and skills to handle it, or Cavalry/Mage or Cavalry/Archer even if one hops off one's Mount to cast spells or shoot arrows after maneuvering away. Still a Sandbox, if you have "soft" limitations.


You could then even add:


Mounted Archery with Shortbows that do 30% less damage than the Longbows only usable on foot. (No bonus to Bow damage for being Mounted, as Melee weapons get.) Need high Archery and Riding skills as well as a new Riding Archery skill to determine bow damage and a specially trained Mount with Studded Leather armor (making them identifyable as well as needing investments). Mount specifics are described in Making mount combat even more awesome (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=3640459&highlight=%22Mounted+combat+powerful%22# post3640459).

By this one gain mobility and striking power that will be really dangerous to Cavalry or those who try to flee, but are vulnerable to Magic and Archers that hit harder, and they have less hardy Mounts than the Heavy cavalry and cannot stand up in a toe-to-toe fight with them. Or Tanks, if they are trapped, as they likely need to be only lightly armored to shoot bows.

What then will happend is that if one want to start with Mounted Archery, is that one start over with Skill Rank 1, with an inferior bow that you need to buy a Skill to use while mounted on a steed that will cost you 2 times the Steedgrass and 1000 Gold pieces worth of armor, (which should require both Tailoring 75+ as well as Taming 50+ to make yourself,) if you have access to a Tamer with Taming 75. Takes quite a while of training before you can ride around shooting arrows doing even half your regular bow damage, so it will essentially suck if you do not have any use for that mobility.

It is also balanced even in the long run as even then you will still do more damage on foot with a regular longbow. But as long as you stick to it and do not run out of arrows, no one will run away from you ever again. Leading you into traps is another matter though.



Magery from Mount, but only when standing still (casting interrupted or held spell released prematurely if you move your Mount, or if your Mount is moved by Knockback effects), perhaps taking a little bit extra time to cast spells, to reduce number of buttons pushed from just to step off to cast spells.

After all, it doesn't take long to dismount to cast a spell, and less than a second to mount again, if one is skilled, so if one would cast spells that takes 25% longer to cast because one is on a Mount, one is probably losing time remaining seated as well as there is a chance someone jumps into you and breaks your concentration by moving the Mount that you would otherwise not be in risk of. But at least you have to push a lot less buttons.



Including one-handed Spear weapons so we can have proper mounted lancers as originally described in Poll: Separate Spears from Polearms - Mounted Charge! (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=179868):





Separate Spears from Polearms. All stabbity weapons small enough to hold in one hand (like Impalers) moved over, and maybe making a few extra versions. Also, make the Mahirim Ghost Claws into a trident-like Spear weapon instead, they're ugly now when they're no longer claws/knives. Chopping spears (i.e. Naginata-like) are to remain Polearms, and should have Slashing damage.


Spear abilities should be: One-handed weapons, Piercing damage, fairly fast, low-moderate damage, long reach. And: No wide swing mode! The two different "swing modes" would be forward stab and overhand stab, where the overhand stab is not usable in close melee but reaches over the head of the person standing in front of you, stabbing his opponent. (Unless you are an Alfar trying to reach over a Mahirim or someone standing on a stone.) NO Whirlwind attack with Spears.


Mounted combat with spears is downward stab to the side, and lancing attack forward, enabling a decent weapon attack while moving with your Mount. Special attack (instead of Whirlwind): Mounted Charge! Add half your Mount damage to your weapon attack if you hit with it, hence only usable while mounted. Front attack arc, so you need to be moving to attack with it, as if you are standing still your Mount attacks.




Make Seize special attacks pull down Parries, and granting a cooldown of parrying again of up to a second or two, based on Seize effect strength. (Small skill in Seize, you pull down the parry, but it goes quickly up again; a lot of Seize skill, you hold the opening in the defence open for a fairly long time that is easily usable.) Seize needs a boost, and people complain about Parries being drearily drawing out fights without a countermeasure available now when AoE's been fixed.

[Edit: As the Expansion added a new Special Ability for pulling down Parries, other measures are needed to fix the Seize special attack. For instance, it has no discernable effect if done to a person that is moving towards you, not to mention that the effect of pulling is quite weak. A proper fix to this would be to add a small Crowd Control effect to Seize: A ½-second immobility (but not Stun, still able to attack/shoot/cast/use items) would at least give it some usefulness. Would fix the bug that it doesn't have an effect to those moving towards you as well as limiting the "headless hen" mobility.]



Fixing Knives, letting it become truly dual-wield by swinging the knives twice with 2 individual attack arcs, which will give great DPS in the front for the truly skilled. On top of this make them Dexterity based damage, Attribute gain and Archer Armour-skill limiting combat ability to lighter armours to compensate will make them very desirable weapons for dedicated archers. Then put in a small Seize effect similar to the Polarm's Knockback, and make the icon have 2 crossed daggers instead of a single that can be mistaken for a sword, and we are done!



[Edit: Underwater Combat should be different than over water in many aspects other than simply not beeing able to shoot or use magic under water. Archery range should count as 100 meters per meter shot through water, effectively making deep underwater combat melee-based. All Melee weapons can be used under water, but Weapon Speed is doubled (working like a "Slow spell" for melee attacks), which accentuates the damage differences in DPS for smaller weapons and by that especially Knives. (People swimming with their heads over the water is not greatly affected by this, and can hence still fight Sharks and such with some efficiency.)]

With these additions, then the combat scene would become really interesting. Many of them are even possible to do as stand-alone enhancements, as well as should be fairly easy to program and implement.

Thank you for reading this massive Wall of Text, now please post what you like or do not like of what you read.

Lumanil
10-17-2009, 11:48 PM
WooW
Great suggestions. Would make this game even more epic, if implemented.

xpiher
10-18-2009, 03:25 AM
When I was sckiming the post I was orignally against this idea, but then I read it fully. These suggestions would make the game much more tactical for melee combat, but I'm not sure if I like the more manan consumption on heavy armors since spells are already useless in heavy armor. These suggestions should only be added in after they rebalance armor or skill set ups first. As it stands now, a heavy armor ware would still be useless because you can't heal while in heavy armor.

edaw22
10-18-2009, 03:46 AM
Reading now, looks like awsomesauce

Lord Zeb
10-18-2009, 03:58 AM
When I was sckiming the post I was orignally against this idea, but then I read it fully. These suggestions would make the game much more tactical for melee combat, but I'm not sure if I like the more manan consumption on heavy armors since spells are already useless in heavy armor. These suggestions should only be added in after they rebalance armor or skill set ups first. As it stands now, a heavy armor ware would still be useless because you can't heal while in heavy armor.

One shouldn't be able to heal much in heavy armour... one should have a Healer buddy that one run with, healing you up, and have the power to do so. But healing is mainly about Magic, and I address that question in Poll: Reworking the Magic Damage System (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=211908), where I state that Healing magic needs a boost. And that include Healing Potions, which is not armour dependant healing.

An alternative for healing in armour would be giving Healing spells an Option of removing Fizzles & reducing Encumberance penalties. A bit of a "Paladin/Cleric" magic option. Would remove the problems people have with healing in heavy armour right away, if one think that people in heavy armour should be doing such things.

All in all, at least you only complained on a small addendum to one of the suggestions. ;)

edaw22
10-18-2009, 04:30 AM
Just read it and it was awsomesauce!

/signed, for another brilliantly thought out post by Lord Zeb.

BTW just looked at poll, wow nice results. But still, people need to vote if they ever want this kinda thing implemented.

MikeJT
10-18-2009, 07:36 AM
I personally don't like the idea of letting armor influence movement speed. People in heavier armors already have massive disadvantages.

Their heal spells and conversions are already less effective, and being that good armors are so expensive, having to carry around a good staff as well will simply make it even more expensive for melee users.

IMO the only way that making heavier armors cost even more stamina could be balanced is if they made mages who run or sprint whilst casting a spell a) use more mana, b) have a higher failure rate, and c) have a longer casting time.

The whole 'jump cast kiting' is absolutely ridiculous. Bringing melee into range already costs you alot of health and stamina (you get pounded whilst closing ground, and the faster you close ground the most stamina you use), so when someone just jumps, spins in mid-air, hits you with a spell and sends you flying away with the knockback effects from their spells, it completely nerfs the possibility of doing any damage in melee. But if they jump up into the air and just fizzle 90% of the time whilst using up mana then this tactic could be used to get away once or twice but after that it's either run or die.

Mages have plenty of tools at their disposal to get away from melee users - begone, confusion, launch and stormblast, are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Some crowd control spells like 'entangling vines' and 'mud' would also be good.

Right now a person with 100 armored casting can actually wear heavier than bone with 0 encumberance to magic. IMO, Armored Casting should be balanced so that at 100 armored casting, a person wearing bone has 0 encumberance to magic. Anything heavier, and they should have an magic encumberance penalty. If they have less than 100 armored casting, bone should still give them a penalty.

The same goes for archery. I personally think Armored Archery should only reduce the effects of scale completely. At 100 Armored Archery, a person should be able to wear scale with no encumberance penalty, and no more. Moving to plate or full-plate should reduce archery speed.

Only the melee should be able to use the heaviest armors with no encumberance penalty.

xpiher
10-18-2009, 08:48 AM
One shouldn't be able to heal much in heavy armour... one should have a Healer buddy that one run with, healing you up, and have the power to do so. But healing is mainly about Magic, and I address that question in Poll: Reworking the Magic Damage System (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=211908), where I state that Healing magic needs a boost. And that include Healing Potions, which is not armour dependant healing.

An alternative for healing in armour would be giving Healing spells an Option of removing Fizzles & reducing Encumberance penalties. A bit of a "Paladin/Cleric" magic option. Would remove the problems people have with healing in heavy armour right away, if one think that people in heavy armour should be doing such things.

All in all, at least you only complained on a small addendum to one of the suggestions. ;)

1) This game isn't a classic RPG class set up
2) All utility skills in this game are magic. In other games, they give physical characters magic like abilities to heal and buff with. I say remove the redundancy and just make healing spells not be affected pretty much at all by encumbrance.

To theposter above me. Jump casting has never been the problem. If you are dying to it you suck. However, I will give you this, all the anti-movement skills don't work when a person is moving: come hither and seize are negated by movement. Fix those skills and you pretty much fix the problem.

MikeJT
10-18-2009, 09:16 AM
To theposter above me. Jump casting has never been the problem. If you are dying to it you suck.


I could just as easily say "If you're not winning fights with jump casting, you just suck."

Doesn't make the statement true.

Cunning
10-18-2009, 10:56 AM
Mounted Riders’ Stamina should be unaffected by wearer's armor or lack of such of regarding Stamina drain. However, adding Stamina to Mounts for Sprinting and Swimming, letting heavily encumbered Mounts drain more Stamina, would be interesting though. Implementing Sprint for Mounts would then let people on light armor have some advantage even on horseback if fleeing, while heavily armored people or people loaded with lots of loot probably won't catch them.



And the Battlehorn would not be affected by heavier loads like plate wearers, that way it would be more valuable in large combat. Right now, bhs suck.

jamie1414
10-18-2009, 11:32 AM
normally i don't like your posts for w\e reason...But this whole post...just awsome is all i can say, nothing i could really say "now thats a stupid idea". All brilliant, AV should hire you :D

Sanshi44
10-18-2009, 01:31 PM
/sign best ideas ive seen hope they get implementented soon

xzxDJxzx
10-18-2009, 01:38 PM
Zeb thinks he is the dev of the game, also he admits that he wants to make DarkFall into WoW which is the worst game on the planet.

dariobrun
10-18-2009, 03:13 PM
/signed, awesome ideas

Gadzy
10-18-2009, 04:53 PM
Nerfing heavy armour with stam drain? That would be the last nail in the heavy armour's coffin.

Lord Zeb
10-18-2009, 05:11 PM
I personally don't like the idea of letting armor influence movement speed. People in heavier armors already have massive disadvantages.
Why I didn't suggest that. Influencing movement speed has been tested in Beta, and the results were that everyone in armour were being Kited. Movement speed should hence NOT be influenced by armour.

Influencing Stamina loss while Sprinting is hence a great way to influence movement strategies indirectly. (Or at least indirectly until they run out of Stamina. ;) ) People still have the ability to run as fast as before, with my additions, but not for as long time as before if they choose to carry heavy armour.

Think you might want to reread the post?

Their heal spells and conversions are already less effective, and being that good armors are so expensive, having to carry around a good staff as well will simply make it even more expensive for melee users.
A valid point, which should be addressed by another solution: Spell Option for Healing/Buffing spells to ignore some of the Encumbrance, as I said in a post above.

IMO the only way that making heavier armors cost even more stamina could be balanced is if they made mages who run or sprint whilst casting a spell a) use more mana, b) have a higher failure rate, and c) have a longer casting time.
My choice is then according to my suggestion #2 above: your answer b) 100% failure rate while Sprinting... (unless they take a Spell Option for it that simultaneously reduce Magnitude by 30%, like with Jumping).

The whole 'jump cast kiting' is absolutely ridiculous. Bringing melee into range already costs you alot of health and stamina (you get pounded whilst closing ground, and the faster you close ground the most stamina you use), so when someone just jumps, spins in mid-air, hits you with a spell and sends you flying away with the knockback effects from their spells, it completely nerfs the possibility of doing any damage in melee. But if they jump up into the air and just fizzle 90% of the time whilst using up mana then this tactic could be used to get away once or twice but after that it's either run or die.
Agree, bunnyjump-shoot technique is ridiculous. But with solution #2 they will slow down while drawing bow or casting spell, so they need to at least need some special skill for bows or the Spell Option for Jumping that draws down their damage by 30%. And #3 will change the movement patterns as well, so it won't be as easy to get away with it as one will slow down when landing.

I think you would like my suggestions if you read them properly. ;)

Mages have plenty of tools at their disposal to get away from melee users - begone, confusion, launch and stormblast, are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Some crowd control spells like 'entangling vines' and 'mud' would also be good.
Actually have a thread suggesting such spells in Poll: Magic Schools Reborn (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=211911), so read that one, please.

Right now a person with 100 armored casting can actually wear heavier than bone with 0 encumberance to magic. IMO, Armored Casting should be balanced so that at 100 armored casting, a person wearing bone has 0 encumberance to magic. Anything heavier, and they should have an magic encumberance penalty. If they have less than 100 armored casting, bone should still give them a penalty.
Agree with you there. Bone Armour should be the top limit for "natural" mage armour wearing, and if 100 armoured casting allows more than that, it definitely need to be tweaked. Anyone that wishes to have anything on top of that should use magic to wear it.

The same goes for archery. I personally think Armored Archery should only reduce the effects of scale completely. At 100 Armored Archery, a person should be able to wear scale with no encumberance penalty, and no more. Moving to plate or full-plate should reduce archery speed.

Only the melee should be able to use the heaviest armors with no encumberance penalty.
To be honest, I think that even Scale armour is a bit much for Archers... but I complement that in my suggestion by making the Stamina Loss for well-trained armourwearers to start taking effect after Studded. You then have a choice of 3 setups:
Light armour, to avoid both negative effects;
Scale, which makes you lose more Stamina while running but allows you to shoot freely;
Heavy armour, taking hits to both Bow damage and Stamina loss while sprinting, just ignoring it and doing whatever one wish regardless of efficiency.

1) This game isn't a classic RPG class set up
2) All utility skills in this game are magic. In other games, they give physical characters magic like abilities to heal and buff with. I say remove the redundancy and just make healing spells not be affected pretty much at all by encumbrance.
Which I suggested by suggesting a Spell option for armoured healers.
Will add it to the above, so people won't lose it in the text.

To theposter above me. Jump casting has never been the problem. If you are dying to it you suck. However, I will give you this, all the anti-movement skills don't work when a person is moving: come hither and seize are negated by movement. Fix those skills and you pretty much fix the problem.
If they fix the Movement Engine the way I want, then then Jump Casting will be fixed enough for me to be pleased.

As for Come hither and Seize, that's a bug that need to be fixed. But that in itself won't fix the problem.

And the Battlehorn would not be affected by heavier loads like plate wearers, that way it would be more valuable in large combat. Right now, bhs suck.
Good point. Would seem self-evident that heavier mount types would be able to carry more, but it can be good to make a point of it in the suggestion.

Zeb thinks he is the dev of the game, also he admits that he wants to make DarkFall into WoW which is the worst game on the planet.
No, not a dev, at least not yet. ;) And I have never said anything like that... have honestly not even played WoW, so I couldn't even write such suggestions if I wanted to!

Tren
10-18-2009, 10:38 PM
2) All utility skills in this game are magic. In other games, they give physical characters magic like abilities to heal and buff with. I say remove the redundancy and just make healing spells not be affected pretty much at all by encumbrance.

I disagree with this I would love to see more non-magic alternatives to some of the magic utility spells, like first-aid bandages, grappling hooks, poisons etc. We currently have way to much magic in this game for my tastes.

Only having one way of doing something can get boring, variety and diversity is what we need, If you start removing redundancy what are you goanna do... hmm we have too many healing spells and they kind of all do the same thing let’s just put all those into a single spell, and what’s with all these melee weapons that are only slightly different from each other let’s just have a single melee weapon. And do we really need this many damage spells that just have different graphics...

Ignore captain beige over there and add more fluff, colour and options to the game.

jamie1414
10-18-2009, 11:31 PM
100 armoured casting == -20 magic penalty reduction.
Bone armour set + leather boots/gloves == 19.49 encumberance.
Basically anything more then bone atm gives u a penalty w\o a encumberance enchant and bone atm is too strong for mages, either has to be nerfed or plate has to be hella better since mages can cast 34387343 self buffs

xpiher
10-19-2009, 12:00 AM
I disagree with this I would love to see more non-magic alternatives to some of the magic utility spells, like first-aid bandages, grappling hooks, poisons etc. We currently have way to much magic in this game for my tastes.

Only having one way of doing something can get boring, variety and diversity is what we need, If you start removing redundancy what are you goanna do... hmm we have too many healing spells and they kind of all do the same thing let’s just put all those into a single spell, and what’s with all these melee weapons that are only slightly different from each other let’s just have a single melee weapon. And do we really need this many damage spells that just have different graphics...

Ignore captain beige over there and add more fluff, colour and options to the game.

What you don't understand is what you are asking for is not true diversity. Its the same thing wrapped in a different skin. True diversity would be what we currently have between the damage spells in the game. Fire magic hits progressively harder the more times you hit a person with it, earth magic does really good burst damage, ice magic can take out a person's stam, necro penalizes people's ability to do damage, etc. Whats the point of having bandages if its the same ability as heal self, whats the point in having grappling hooks if they do the same thing launch does? None!

Lord Zeb
10-19-2009, 01:08 AM
The point of them would be that people who do not wish to be magic-users will have alternatives. Which will not only make it so that you do not need Mana and Reagents for the spell effects in question but also avoiding armour penalties. Not to mention that there will be different usage of Launch and Grappling hooks, so it will be far from the same.

Hence, even if the above solutions would be in place, including the Spell Options for avoiding armour penalties for Healing spells, there would still be plenty of people using First Aid and Grappling hooks out there, if they were implemented. Problem with it would only be people that combined them with magic. ;)

stingerII
10-19-2009, 01:37 AM
awesome ideas Lord Zeb, as usual :D

EDIT: double post ... sleepy!!

stingerII
10-19-2009, 01:50 AM
I agree with all but the below point





Fixing Knives, letting it become truly dual-wield by swinging the knives twice with 2 individual attack arcs...


For this, make it a special attack ... but not a regular attack ... if anything give it a short cd

other than that ... /signed

Lord Zeb
10-19-2009, 02:33 AM
Have you ever used Knives? All Knife cooldowns are short, relative other weapons... but that is not enough. They are terribly implemented. Weakest weapon to wield in the game.

What is silly is that Knives now have a 180 degree attack arc where the Knive wielder chops twice, but it only counts as one attack. And where the attack arc is the same regardless how the knives chop. Not to mention that the narrow attack only use a single Knife. Animations do not grant much variance either.

Furthermore, the relatively high DPS is only usable in PvE and is not enough to make up for the shortest Reach in the game. And the low damage per hit is highly penalized with how armour work, as many small attacks have the threshold absorbtion of armour being counted more times than for higher damage attacks that penetrate easier.

Making Knives have dual arcs would amend the silliness of the implementation as well as make it a weapon for which great skill would grant great reward. Not only would make it as it should be, but it would also give a "one hit" dualstrike where the arcs coincide, that would be considerable enough to make it usable in PvP. So, 2 arcs with 105 degree coverage, which coincides in the slim 30 degree arc in the front, would account for a lot for the truly skilled ones... while granting little for those that just run around wildly like headless hens in battle. And without any artificial tweaking to the numbers.

However... making them Dexterity based instead of Strengthbased would still draw in a lot of people to become Knifewielders even if the weapons would remain sucky. If for nothing else than for the cheaper Dexterity training.

MikeJT
10-19-2009, 05:32 AM
Think you might want to reread the post?


Sorry Zeb. I skimmed a little too fast. Seems like we're almost on the same track.

Stormsblade
10-19-2009, 05:36 AM
These suggestions are all pretty bad.

Lord Zeb
10-19-2009, 08:11 AM
At least they are far better than yours in your Economic Overhaul Thread (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=217235). ;)

Dragoon
10-19-2009, 11:20 AM
# Add “Combat Dodge” movement while pressing the Q and E buttons while not Mounted, to grant those buttons some use at all times. Combat Dodge movement should count as Sprinting in regard to Stamina loss, reduce Hitbox, as well as making an evasive movement that will vary depending on what other movement buttons are pushed together with it. (Length of movement increased if simulataneously Sprinting, direction influenced by other movement buttons.)


I really liked how AOC implemented dodge. You could double tap left, right, up or down to dodge while in combat.

It was fluid and felt natural, worked very well. The abilities all costs a small amount of stamina to use. Dodging would not only move you out of the way of an attack but would provide short 2 second buffs as well. Left or right dodge added a defensive buff against melee attacks, double tap back added a resistance buff against magic, and double tapping forward lunged your character forward and gave you a buff towards your next melee attack. This would work even better in Darkfall and add more spice to melee, which currently is pretty dull.

lkx
10-25-2009, 11:38 AM
I support a lot of things here, even if i don't think that they could be able to balance stamina costs without an "Energy bar".
That would help them to differentiate short-term balance (like fights) from long-term balance (like swimming or riding).

Lord Zeb
10-25-2009, 03:49 PM
In combat, Stamina is pretty much a short-term balancing bar, and the above suggestion this thread is about makes it even more so.

So, why do one need a separate Energy bar to keep track of, do the exact same thing as the Stamina bar already is doing? And the only point being to have people running out of the Energy bar, but still got plenty of Stamina? And if there are things that drain the Stamina bar more than the Energy bar, what would be the realism in Stamina running out before Energy?

lkx
10-26-2009, 09:29 AM
In combat, Stamina is pretty much a short-term balancing bar, and the above suggestion this thread is about makes it even more so.

So, why do one need a separate Energy bar to keep track of, do the exact same thing as the Stamina bar already is doing? And the only point being to have people running out of the Energy bar, but still got plenty of Stamina? And if there are things that drain the Stamina bar more than the Energy bar, what would be the realism in Stamina running out before Energy?

Because having a decent balance using the current stamina bar would mean draining almost all of that every single fight.
With an Energy bar we could allow that to be drained and replenished a lot faster, reducing downtimes but still allowing some balance in fights, and keeping long-term stamina limitation for things like swimming and riding.
Talking about realism it isn't so strange, because we have a short-term energy burning (sugars if i'm not wrong) and a long-term one.

Lord Zeb
11-23-2009, 12:12 AM
Because having a decent balance using the current stamina bar would mean draining almost all of that every single fight.

With an Energy bar we could allow that to be drained and replenished a lot faster, reducing downtimes but still allowing some balance in fights, and keeping long-term stamina limitation for things like swimming and riding.

Talking about realism it isn't so strange, because we have a short-term energy burning (sugars if i'm not wrong) and a long-term one.
Even with that notion, one use short-term stamina (used for Jumping and Sprinting) for the same things as fighting (swinging swords).

Long-term stamina could possibly be used for holding up a shield until people start hitting on them, but all other combat maneuvers should then use Short-term stamina and not Long-term ("swimming and riding-stamina") and the "Action bar" would then still be redundant.

I think it is much better to re-balance stamina use mechanics with a single Stamina-bar, and adding drain modifiers for Sprinting based on armour use is a good one for that, as well as adding a "drowning function" for people swimming in armour. (It is actually physically possible to swim in armour, just very hard and one need to be a really good and energetic swimmer, so allowing people to do this with a hefty Stamina-loss penalty isn't too far from the realism mark.)

Gray Fox
11-23-2009, 10:05 PM
Great suggestions, really.
I didnt understood that part about the steedgrass and gold cost for mounted archery.

Lord Zeb
11-23-2009, 10:37 PM
That?

It is so that IF one wish to use Mounted Archery, one need a Mount specifically trained for Mounted Archery. The extra steedgrass and gold costs were recommendations for how much more it would cost training such a mount.

That is, one cannot use a regular mount or a heavily armoured mount, due to those not trained well enough so you can steer them with your knees, or have too much padding to feel it well enough, or something.;)

It is the short version of a much more comprehensive suggestion which you can find in Making mount combat even more awesome (http://”http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=3640459&highlight=%22Mounted+combat+powerful%22# post3640459”). Read that post and you might find another great suggestion.:sly:

nisco17
11-23-2009, 10:47 PM
Agree with everything on here, though I don't think one handed spears are totally necessary at the moment.

One thing that I think might make melee more interesting is an extra stamina bar, or an "Energy Bar" that depletes but also recharges quickly. Your encumbrance could determine how quickly it depletes.

Certain things, such as landing power attacks (which I'd much rather see as holding down the mouse rather than it's own ability) could drain energy and do a lot of damage, so dodging them would be vital. Would also prevent sprint spam.

Gray Fox
11-24-2009, 03:08 PM
Ah I understand it now.
I like your suggestions, they seem practical and realistic. ;)
Even if some of them were implemented and didnt work well in pvp, it would always be awesome to have them for variety's sake. :)

Lord Zeb
11-26-2009, 02:18 AM
Agree with everything on here, though I don't think one handed spears are totally necessary at the moment.
Well, when they prioritize Mount combats, then they will be, as we don't have any Jousting Knights at the moment.;)

One thing that I think might make melee more interesting is an extra stamina bar, or an "Energy Bar" that depletes but also recharges quickly. Your encumbrance could determine how quickly it depletes.
As I have said above, double bars for Stamina is superflous and simply poor design in even more information to keep track of, with 2 bars being related in such a way that they shouldn't even be kept apart.

Do not think it is needed, as Stamina in combat is about short term energy anyway... and only way it would be able to be well implemented would be to have the Energy bar within the Stamina bar, displayed with a bright energy, being spent and recovered in triple speed to be of any significance, and merely limited by the general "long-term energy" stamina which should also be affected by combat. Not to mention that the Stamina usage then need to be rebalanced over all, if such would be implemented.

Too much work, where my suggestion is simpler in both implementation as well as usage, and would give good results regardless if one put in an Energy bar or not.

Certain things, such as landing power attacks (which I'd much rather see as holding down the mouse rather than it's own ability) could drain energy and do a lot of damage, so dodging them would be vital. Would also prevent sprint spam.
Don't see how holding down the mouse button would prevent people from Sprinting... or is it the increase of Stamina used for Special attacks that would be prohibitive? But I think you have the essence of a nice idea here:

One can load the Action slot with a Special attack, and with short clicks you do regular attacks; and if you hold it in you do the special attack when you release it. Then you can even remove the Special attack cooldown, as one have a Loading time instead, that don't even need to be that long as the cooldown to balance it out! (Cannot Parry without dropping the loaded Special attack, needing to reload it if going on the defence.)

And of course have hotbar buttons to load special attacks with that are general (which then will be one button each for Power Attack, Seize, Knockback and Whirlwind), instead of bound to the weapon type (such as Power Attack: Greatswords), to simplify the UI and free up more hotbar buttons, as have been suggested in a few other threads recently.

Lutzen
11-26-2009, 10:12 AM
Remove Underwater Archery. Above all things (pun intended) It would make for better pvp videos (editing out the boring parts of water crap totally). Only thing that should be allowed under water is melee.

Shooting bow while swimming above the surface sure, but not while your moving. and only on targets above the surface.

Best would of course be to have Adventurine implement combat mechanics for hitting targets slightly below the surface. With a killzone within 2 meters deep, but again you would have to pull off the shot from above the surface or from the land or boat . But it´s easier to just remove underwater archery.

Of course this should be implemented along with the OP exellent suggestions about water stamina drain and other suggested combat mechanics, severe penalty for swimming with heavy armour etc.

Want to fight in the water? use som skills and wear the right stuff and melee..

Lord Zeb
11-26-2009, 04:57 PM
Good suggestion... water slows down movement greatly, so some kind of protection and hinterances in it should be done.

I think reducing Range for Arrows would do better... having distance travelled under the surface count as 50 times longer than above surface would do the trick for that part. And at least halve Range for shots made from under the surface on top of that, due to string vs water resistance, if not banning it altogether.

As for underwater melee fighting... if one wish to be really realistic, then I'd say that one would only be able to use Knives and One-handed spears under the surface. Or at least have a "slow spell" put on them due to the environment if they do not use such weapons, as one cannot swing as quickly underwater.

Another point is that one should however be able to use Water magic under the surface... that Elemental school is otherwise the least useful anyway, and would benefit greatly from it.

Comments?

Lutzen
11-26-2009, 07:16 PM
Nah ranged under water is just too simplistic and boring, and since there already are alot of killzones for ranged magic and piercing missiles above surfaces, on land and while jumping down in midair or launching over the wall queueing nuke. To have a melee only killzone would be the point.

Water would serve as a pace changer in combat and a chance for victim to get away or being chased down to a violent death below or above surface. This of course means that water logging should not be possible. Water chases would not be boring with NEW stamina rules. :sly:

http://www.filefront.com/13468558/COvsBLACKCOMPANY.avi

EDIT (Broken link but you get the gist)


On top of that, the chasing would not last long with the new stamina changes proposed in this thread.


Damages with swords and other melee weapons should be possible (believe me you can fuck somebody up pretty bad with a sword even underwater) But bonus to knife damage while under water is a good idea.

This would go along the ideas of the pvp paradigm put forth by OP in this thread, to change combat pacing and diversify combat mechanics, and keeping with one of Darkfall´s strongpoints: that enviroment is a crucial part in combat and decides the tactics.

Lord Zeb
11-28-2009, 03:47 AM
So, no Water magic underwater even?

Well, got some nice input anyway, and the formalized suggestion I can get out of this (that could be sufficient for a "Water Combat addon" to the above first post) would then be:

Archery range should count as 100 meters per meter shot through water, effectively making deep underwater combat melee-based. All Melee weapons can be used under water, but Weapon Speed is doubled (working like a "Slow spell" for melee attacks), which accentuates the damage differences in DPS for smaller weapons and by that especially Knives. (People swimming with their heads over the water is not greatly affected by this, and can hence still fight Sharks and such with some efficiency.)

Any comments on this, before I edit it in?

Lord Zeb
11-29-2009, 01:31 PM
Added Underwater changes as point 11.

This point can of course still be changed if you come with stirring arguments for the cause, in greater degree than the others as it is a new addition and not part of the Polls, so feel free to continue discussing it. As it is now, it is merely 2 little changes: Arrows travel very short under water, making it a Melee zone unless you are at the surface; and lighter Melee weapons are far better than heavy ones under the surface, as Speed differences double DPS differences.

Kelsen
11-30-2009, 12:56 AM
1, 3, 6, 8, 10 imo are good.

Mounted archery would be fun! If we can't get this then maybe mount drawn chariots? Archery could be used while in the chariot.

I would also like to see a way to knock a player off a mount, jousting perhaps.

Lord Zeb
11-30-2009, 02:30 AM
Well, there is a Charge special attack... maybe it should have a Knockback function if hitting a rider in the front? Or maybe allowing Knockback with Spears from a Mount Knockback someone off of a Mount? Think the Charge special attack would be best for it. What do you think?

Would be fun for Jousting competitions, as a one-hit run pushing people off of horses wouldn't kill anyone who is careful enough and allowed to wait or have help to heal up.

Lord Zeb
12-09-2009, 02:37 AM
As the Expansion has added quite a deal, a couple of the changes are adressed in part in here as well. So, let's update the thread!

"Combat Dodge" (#4) has been implemented in the Side-step Melee Extension. They have however implemented it poorly.

Not only have they copied the popular double-click control for it from another game, but the movement itself is far from graceful, and mesh badly with other movement maneuvers as it is hacky and prohibits other kinds of movement even more than Jumping.

What was needed was to use the UI setup from this game as a base, making use of the dead-weight "leaning buttons" (possible having doubleclick for jumping in the direction as it is now), but the input of the movement order should not be done as a "combat order", but be able to work smoothly with the rest of the movement control input. Furthermore the "side-step" is indeed a step, where it should be a pantherlike leap to the side with weapons ready or even swinging. (Jumping graphics in general is quite silly, actually, and could use a... dynamic update.)

And then lastly, they made it as a choice. Where you could choose between the uncomplicated Side-step movement, and the advanced Double-jump ability... forming 2 "melee groups" confusing everyone even. (Not even divided up into 2 groups where you learn them.) Proper implementation here would be to give Side-step for free, or possibly as a Skill instead if one upgrade it to become properly useful, and put Double-jump as an option for the other Melee extension group (which then would be the only one). Would also grant the Combat Dodge maneuver to those armed with bows, staffs or tools. (If those would be restricted from use of this, I would treat it as Jumping.)



Armours have been updated by simply strengthening the heavier ones, and make them even heavier, even further reducing healing ability. To compensate for the healing ability Rage healing have been introduced and potions boosted.

This is however a boost that is done for every other reason than what I suggest, and twists the differences even further askew, even if this has been done mainly for magic. Where Buffs & Debuffs have been relatively strenghened by the main schools for these still being open for anyone regardless of Extensions and no Resistaces have been increased against them.

Even if these changes could remain, I would say that all the above still needs to be done, with the alterations that as Resistances being able to be so great now, that the thresholds are getting so great that middle-ranked Elemental spells may be rendered nearly useless against them, suffering the same penalty that the lower leveled spells had before that the above fix I suggested would solve. Hence: Half the Resistance could function as a Threshold, and half reduce 5% damage per point, roughly calculated.


Instead of adding a Parry-disabling effect to Seize, they have put in another special attack specifically for this, leaving Seize useless.


Knives have been boosted to become competitive, in both damage and reach, but not fixed. All the above still needs to be done... and it is possible that this change to damage and reach must be undone or reduced to rebalance things, but that need to be evaluated.


Water have become a safe zone, except against some Archers.



So, essentially can be said that everything suggested by this thread has been ignored, as the changes go against the recommendations even where improvements have been done.

Draxous
12-09-2009, 02:53 AM
chariots. I want chariots.

nisco17
12-17-2009, 05:29 AM
Bump.

i LOVE this thread. Everything about it.

Please AV, start working on this shit PRONTO.

badula
12-17-2009, 09:24 AM
as for seize i'd say that, if you get a melee specialization that prevents you from casting elemental magic, it should SNARE your target :D

Lord Zeb
12-23-2009, 01:49 AM
Any CC is dangerous to experiment with, as it easily gets overpowering...

But, as it stands now, Seize is essentially useless, as it didn't get the Parry-downpulling power. Especially as one is essentially immune to it's effect if one is moving... so maybe you are right.

A half a second's Snare could be the solution, if it affected Movement only, and not a Snare that incapacitates a victim so he cannot make attacks or parries. Any longer durations would make it too powerful, even if one abandon higher magic schools.

Anyone got any comments on this?

rainbow-rainbow
12-23-2009, 06:15 AM
sounds like ways to make OP pretty OP not being able to sprint while casting spells. tweaking jump shots on spells and archery *not that anybody gets that* might help a bit.

Holio
12-23-2009, 07:58 AM
I would be happy if the developers would make the requiements of armor easier to get. If armor was in abundance, no one would be naked. Even noobs would wear it, if only it wasn't so damn boring to mine the metal.

Akatsuki#1
12-23-2009, 08:23 AM
competitive pvp game

no need to fuck with it just because you want to escape your real life online.

Lord Zeb
01-12-2010, 06:18 PM
As no one has posted anything against this suggestion, I think it is deemed to be quite fair, and the following have been added to the Seize point in the first post:

[Edit: As the Expansion added a new Special Ability for pulling down Parries, other measures are needed to fix the Seize special attack. For instance, it has no discernable effect if done to a person that is moving towards you, not to mention that the effect of pulling is quite weak. A proper fix to this would be to add a small Crowd Control effect to Seize: A ½-second immobility (but not Stun, still able to attack/shoot/cast/use items) would at least give it some usefulness. Would fix the bug that it doesn't have an effect to those moving towards you as well as limiting the "headless hen" mobility.]

Anyone disagreeing with me on this, feel free to express yourselves.

edaw22
01-19-2010, 12:07 PM
BUMP

Also added a link to this thread in my Crafting and Gathering changes thread.

Alexandrivs M.
01-19-2010, 04:06 PM
/signed
/sticky
/project
/expansion

( i'm not sure about mounted archery&casting, but if they implement this two with all other things you already suggest, well, 6 months subscription for sure here.)