Spell nerfs? No... How about spell Diversity!?

[Zahtam]

I see a lot of the same suggestions out there for global cool downs on spells, for forbidding certain schools from interacting – from somehow tying together all schools of magic in order to prevent “unbalance” and make any mage specifically choose 1 school to use.

This suggestion, while a much better step in the right direction than our current system of use the same nuke from multiple school to essentially eliminate cool downs on that specific spell – is not a long term solution for fixing magic in this game. In fact, this solution may as well say: “Limit all Magic to two schools, buffs and nukes”.

Where is the diversity, creativity, depth and immersion into magic and the game in this solution? It’s boring and dry, with limited combat scenarios and thus tactical implications.

I would like to see diversity added to schools, not just a one button fix to temporarily balance the game climate. I don’t pretend to have all the answers, each intricate detail on what tactical advantage using one school over the other should be – but I do know that it’s a step in the right direction to make combat a little more diversified and fun. I’ll lay out a simple example and leave the idea building to someone with the time and mind to do it:

Water Magic: Focus on slowing your opponent’s spell casting, melee swings, and ranged attacks while making those attacks more taxing to stamina, mana or health.

Icicle: Hits for 1/5th of the most powerful bolt spell but causes 15% penatlty to swing speed, ranged speed, and casting speed.

Blizzard: An attack devastating your opponents run speed, disabling “sprint” for 20 seconds and causing 1/5th the damage of the most powerful AOE spell.


Earth Magic: A defensive school, enhancing your protection against attacks with each spell your strike or reducing your opponents armor rating:

Corrosive Blast: hits for 2/3 the damage of the most powerful level 50 nuke but grants a buff reducing the damage of the next incoming attack by 50%.

Disintegrate: Hits for 2/3 the damage of the most powerful level 90 but drains 25% of your opponent’s armor protections.

Fire Magic: Balls to the wall offense, if you can see it, burn it:

Firebolt: Hits for max damage of bolts and leaves you opponent with a DoT for an additional 10% damage.

Fireball: Hits for max damage and reduces your opponent’s fire resistance by 50%.


Another point is specializations: Why is it a specialization if I can do it in every school isn’t it a generalization than? Let users buff up one school and one school only with magic upgrades...

This needs to be fixed and will lead to a natural way of limiting the number of schools someone uses in combat without flicking a kill switch to the openness this game offers.

[Bullsi]

I see a lot of the same suggestions out there for global cool downs on spells, for forbidding certain schools from interacting – from somehow tying together all schools of magic in order to prevent “unbalance” and make any mage specifically choose 1 school to use.

This suggestion, while a much better step in the right direction than our current system of use the same nuke from multiple school to essentially eliminate cool downs on that specific spell – is not a long term solution for fixing magic in this game. In fact, this solution may as well say: “Limit all Magic to two schools, buffs and nukes”.

Where is the diversity, creativity, depth and immersion into magic and the game in this solution? It’s boring and dry, with limited combat scenarios and thus tactical implications.

I would like to see diversity added to schools, not just a one button fix to temporarily balance the game climate. I don’t pretend to have all the answers, each intricate detail on what tactical advantage using one school over the other should be – but I do know that it’s a step in the right direction to make combat a little more diversified and fun. I’ll lay out a simple example and leave the idea building to someone with the time and mind to do it:

Water Magic: Focus on slowing your opponent’s spell casting, melee swings, and ranged attacks while making those attacks more taxing to stamina, mana or health.

Icicle: Hits for 1/5th of the most powerful bolt spell but causes 15% penatlty to swing speed, ranged speed, and casting speed.

Blizzard: An attack devastating your opponents run speed, disabling “sprint” for 20 seconds and causing 1/5th the damage of the most powerful AOE spell.


Earth Magic: A defensive school, enhancing your protection against attacks with each spell your strike or reducing your opponents armor rating:

Corrosive Blast: hits for 2/3 the damage of the most powerful level 50 nuke but grants a buff reducing the damage of the next incoming attack by 50%.

Disintegrate: Hits for 2/3 the damage of the most powerful level 90 but drains 25% of your opponent’s armor protections.

Fire Magic: Balls to the wall offense, if you can see it, burn it:

Firebolt: Hits for max damage of bolts and leaves you opponent with a DoT for an additional 10% damage.

Fireball: Hits for max damage and reduces your opponent’s fire resistance by 50%.


Another point is specializations: Why is it a specialization if I can do it in every school isn’t it a generalization than? Let users buff up one school and one school only with magic upgrades...

This needs to be fixed and will lead to a natural way of limiting the number of schools someone uses in combat without flicking a kill switch to the openness this game offers.


Like the idea, come up with some more spells.

Also: Think the water magic "Icicle" should be stackable.

Anyway would this really prevent someone from getting all the schools and cycling through nuke after nuke? I think there would still be an unbalanced aspect to this system.

[JCatano]

While I agree that many of the spells are copy/paste throughout the schools, your idea would not fix anything. I'd just get all of the spells... Like we do now.

And so would everyone else.

[Cunning]

After a person gets 50 in one school, that should be thier main school. Then you can train other schools, you just cant use any spell past 50, that way you get some other dmg types and other buffs, but not the big aoes and big DDs.

May have to change around the level requirements for some spells to make it balanced, but hey, its not balanced as it is.

[Allort]

I want to see a bump to this thread because it's thinking outside the box :D

Though i also agree that this type of diversity will not stop people cycling 100 lvl spells.

so here is my plea, listen to more ideas like this.

do NOT nerf magic power, magic is not killing the game, cycling through spell schools is. If you nerf magic power/effect someone like me who only has one spell school at 100 (doesnt even have other spell schools) will HAVE to get the other spells schools to 100 to be effective... how is that what AV or the game wants?

[Jango1337]

After a person gets 50 in one school, that should be thier main school. Then you can train other schools, you just cant use any spell past 50, that way you get some other dmg types and other buffs, but not the big aoes and big DDs.

May have to change around the level requirements for some spells to make it balanced, but hey, its not balanced as it is.

or maybe go back to how it was way back if you got fire you couldn't get water, if you got earth you couldn't get air, if you got arcane you couldn't get necro (you should be able to change which school you want at the mages guild but you shouldn't get everything)

and I agree how is it a specialization if you can put it on everything most spells in darkfall are completely unused the only types of spells used are damage, self heals, and self buffs.

[Azraine]

or maybe go back to how it was way back if you got fire you couldn't get water, if you got earth you couldn't get air, if you got arcane you couldn't get necro (you should be able to change which school you want at the mages guild but you shouldn't get everything)

and I agree how is it a specialization if you can put it on everything most spells in darkfall are completely unused the only types of spells used are damage, self heals, and self buffs.

would that really fix anything? youd still have 3 lvl 100 nukes, and 3 lvl 50 nukes. Sure they arent all 100...but still. I cant see that changing alot.

[Jango1337]

would that really fix anything? youd still have 3 lvl 100 nukes, and 3 lvl 50 nukes. Sure they arent all 100...but still. I cant see that changing alot.

no you don't HAVE to do it... people choose to do it cause that is how the gameplay is now a nukefest but if they actually made melee/archery viable (like it should be the main way to fight) lots of people would just say fuck magic and go melee and archery cause they like it better.

[electrofux]

I am not for spell nerf. I am for encumberance nerfs:

-raise encumberance on all armors so that even bone and 100 armored casting gives a small penalty to casting and wearing >plate gives a penalty to archery
-remove encumberance effect from Lesser Magic to allow heavy armor wearers the use of transfer spells.
-introduce new potions giving buffs to resistances as a compensation to the loss of casting ability when wearing strong armor
-If needed introduce new robes or another form of high level armor aimed at casters

[Azraine]

no you don't HAVE to do it... people choose to do it cause that is how the gameplay is now a nukefest but if they actually made melee/archery viable (like it should be the main way to fight) lots of people would just say fuck magic and go melee and archery cause they like it better.

obviously. I mean, im melee and magic, but mostly melee. No archery at all. I play like that now, even with super gimpness. You do ok against mob hunters and gatherers. Last pvp run in went on made LOADS, there are actually some places on this map that are pretty people full. Namely dwarf lands. Anyone wants pvp, go to dwarf lands, you will find it. Going back there as soon as i train my melee skills some more, and get some better weapons. Wanna get 100 mastery, 300 hp and some better weapons. 234 hp is a pretty big gimp against most players. Might also get witches brew.

Octoberfest patch! cannot wait. Bet it comes in november though lol.

[Jango1337]

obviously. I mean, im melee and magic, but mostly melee. No archery at all. I play like that now, even with super gimpness. You do ok against mob hunters and gatherers. Last pvp run in went on made LOADS, there are actually some places on this map that are pretty people full. Namely dwarf lands. Anyone wants pvp, go to dwarf lands, you will find it. Going back there as soon as i train my melee skills some more, and get some better weapons. Wanna get 100 mastery, 300 hp and some better weapons. 234 hp is a pretty big gimp against most players. Might also get witches brew.

Octoberfest patch! cannot wait. Bet it comes in november though lol.

I've always hated how there are hot spots for pvp, hopefully with wandering AI it makes it so pvp happens everywhere not just where the best mobs are....

[Zahtam]

I see a lot of response for "This won't fix any balance issues"

I would like to break this down to a problem/solution format and see if you still disagree with me on this:

Problem: Cycling lvl 100 nukes, that do too much damage and are too easy to hit. Essentially lifting a cooldown on spells that need cooldowns by replacing it with the same exact spell from a different school.

Solution: Create differant meanings for different schools. A lvl 100 water nuke only does 1/5th the damage of a fire nuke per above which means your 40 damage in the front now does a whopping "8" damage. Does that mean casting the water nuke is useless? No, it slows your opponent and gives you time to gain position, heal up, kite till your friends get there... It has eliminated the base problem of cycling the same spell for uber damage without removing someones ability to pick up multiple schools of magic.

Furthermore, if they added a more sincere meaning to "Specilization" and your could only use upgrades on an enitre school, then 1 or two spells in that school. (i.e All fire school spells gain jump cast, 5% increase in damage and apply a dot upon impact....Enhance two spells that when striking grant you a temporary 10% casting speed buff...) then when you want to damage something...you use fire...you don't cycle spell after spell, not becasue you cant - but becasue it's more advantageous to the situation of damaging your opponent to use the school you buffed. It would still be good for you to have water magic becasue if the situation arrives where you need to cripple an opponent(s) and survive you would swap to that school.

[DeManiac]

After a person gets 50 in one school, that should be thier main school. Then you can train other schools, you just cant use any spell past 50, that way you get some other dmg types and other buffs, but not the big aoes and big DDs.

May have to change around the level requirements for some spells to make it balanced, but hey, its not balanced as it is.


Problem with this is, in their initial thought about such systems, "hard cap" you could call it, they removed it since they wanted it to be a choice.
There are complications with such a system, without knowing it if you're unlucky, you might lock yourself to a school you don't intend to, you cannot try any schools out before using them etc.

In that way, a title earned would be much smarter, since you only lock yourself on a 24h basis, but increases the effect of the magic by a hudge deal so you would prefer to have it.
Or even better a specialization, why is that?.
Let me first show you the way I though they could be nice.

First reduce the damage overall by 25% of all schools that get specialization like this.


Firemage
Increases damage you do with Fire-spells by 50% but reduces damage done from other elemental schools by 25%, something like that.(numbers can be tweaked ofc)

Earthmage
Increases damage you do with Earth-spells by 50% but reduces damage done from other elemental schools by 25%, something like that.(numbers can be tweaked ofc)

Airmage
Increases damage you do with Air-spells by 50% but reduces damage done from other elemental schools by 25%, something like that.(numbers can be tweaked ofc)

Watermage
Increases damage you do with Water-spells by 50% but reduces damage done from other elemental schools by 25%, something like that.(numbers can be tweaked ofc)

IF it was a title system you would be limited to one, ok?
That would you, your a firemage, you cannot have more then one school rest will be only 50% effective.

Another option would be to give you specializations alternative as I stated above.
If it's specialization you could have as many you wanted, but the sideeffect would nullify the bonus or make it worse if you had all of them.


If you have Fire and Earth.
They both do 100% damage, but Water and Air, only does 25%.

If you only have Fire, it gives you 125% damage to fire, and 50% of the others.

Take none, and all do 75% of what they do now.


These specializations you could buy, like the system with Archery specializations being added in the coming expansion.
Once you learn the magic school, you're able to buy the specialization.


This would be a choice, you could think that 75% of what they do now but being able to cycle 4 rank 100 nukes is the way to go, then that's your choice, maybe would have to be some tweaking on the damage of the 100s and make it 50% damage and an effect that make up for it, I dunno.
The simple fact is, it's a choice.



If you think the downside of the specializations are to much, I think the downside is pretty ok, makes you focus on 1 or 2 schools only.
If you have more, you don't use specializations. (buying a 3rd puts the 4th on 0% damage, and those 3 at 75%).
What could be an issue is if everyone have 3+ already, then they would not buy it, thus it could be more effective to have another effect added to buying them(if taking two schools back to current damage is not enough).
What that extra effect could be, I have no clue, but would have to be something that fitted the tree( maybe allow you to use the other spell upgrades?, so if you don't have the magic school specialization, you cannot buy jump-cast etc, just throwing things out here, don't take it to harsh).

[DeManiac]

Thought of another way after reading my own post aswel, how about this.

You can train every magic school to 100, but you cannot use magic above skill 75 if you do not have a specialization, how does this work?

Read the above post I made, immagine the specialization instead made you increase the limit you had to wield that kinda magic.

For example, if you have Fire, to 100, you cannot use higher magic then Magma Storm(75), they are there, but they are grey.

IF you get Firespecialization, you can now use something that's only available to those that have it, 125 Fireskill spell.

Are you with me now?

Get Earth Specialization aswell, and you get, 100 Fire, 100 Earth, the downside is that you reduce the skill usage in the other magic schools by doing so.

If you get Earth and Fire specializations for example, you won't be able to use skills above 25.



This prevents people from cycling 100 nukes, but they can have two if they want.
If they want 4 schools, they can use everyone at 75 topp.



Good shit
Even with 2 rank 100s, you would stil be able to use all the buffs from the other two trees since not often are they above 25.(would be haste in fire or int buff in water).



So, Specializations.
Increase your "skill cap" in the tree by 50, but reduces the cap in others by 25.
For this to be nice, you would have to let those 125 skills be really sweet :P




This would not affect Lesser or Greater Magic(not in my mind anyway)

[Zahtam]

DeManiac,

While you have many valid arguments in terms of re-balancing the magic system through specializations – I feel you are missing the point of this particular post:

First off the method that you propose does NOT diversify magic in this game, but simply balances the current system through a more focused approach on the specialization suggestion made above. The problem with your take on specialization I see is unlocking a higher cap. I feel that AV’s intent with the implementation of the magic UPGRADE process was to enhance your current spells – not create a venue to grind more. I think the first premise by which you analyzed the benefit of creating one specialization to one school and the penalty to other schools when taking that specialization was fine without adding in the excess cap to that school and the system itself would prevent multiple schools from being used without the extra skill points.

To get back to my original argument with your post, is that the process would not enhance the gaming experience and is a short and temporary fix to the current magic system. Without creating different rolls to different schools there is essentially no point in having different schools. If I enhance earth magic via your system it is the same as if I enhanced fire magic and in essence have eliminated the need for any non-buff spell in fire magic. You are pigeon-holing a player into one school in the same manner as a global cool down would and the only choice you are providing a player is which spell graphic he/she likes better and frankly they are all sub-par already (with the exception of a few).

[DeManiac]

First, my two posts only connection is the way that the by picking one specialization you get 50+ and 25- to the rest.
There would be no damage reduction in the second, or no cap change in the first.
They are not connected, it was different approaches to the same problem.


Two, In the first post I also stated in the below section that for them to be good enough to be choices, the benefits would be to have either that extra 50% damage for one school or 25% extra damage for two.

But as you say, they don't give diversity, in the second post, that 125 skill would do so, and no, it wouldn't add to the grind.

For example. if you have 100 in a school, you can buy the spells, but you cannot use them.
Buy the specialization, and you reach 125 in skill, take away the specialization and your back to 100, but still only able to use skills at 75 topps.

That was the point of that cap(second post), preventing people from cycling the 100 nukes, and if they chose to limit them selfs to 1 rather then having two rank 100 nukes, they would also receive a bonus, that 125 spell, or those 125 spells.


It's still not "spell diversity" as you state in your post, but I also think that even with spell diversity, they would still get the exact same problems they have now, with people having 100 everything and spamming those 100 nukes, even if you lower the damage they do, and add side effects, those would still be used eventually, and having more would be better then having less.

Do you understand my point?
If you started leveling Water and saw that, omg my rank 100 nuke does 10 damage by I slow their attack speed by 90%, fuck that I want damage.
Ok let's skill 100 fire instead.
Then you have given them spell diversity for sure, by some it would be considered nice, other would consider it waste to have leveled that water magic to 100, the reason allot of the spells are similar is that many pick different, skill them up and then see what they get.
Then whine about not being able to access AoE from one, etc etc.

Spell diversity could always be added onward, but getting it right by doing radical changes(like water thing I showed). Wich would have to be the amount of change you would have to do to prevent people from cycling them.
But by doing so, those that only have Water, would be forced to learn Fire in order to do damage.



I think a system with spell diversity AND a way to promote having magic focused on a tree or two, is the way to go.
But that's just me, I guess...


First because it's less work in making a system = it's given to us faster.
Second because it wouldn't force people to totally change their magic and relearn their magic like yours would( sure they should have read the descriptions before, but hey, it's a game ).

[Indestructible]

The most immediate change that needs to happen is:
Splash damage doing less damage to a single target than Bolt/Ray Magic (which can only hit 1 target and takes infinitely more skill to land than splash magic).

Splash damage should be AT MOST 50% the damage of a direct-hit Bolt.

[Zahtam]

I am in no way arguing that the method you described does not fix balance issues. It may do just that, it certainly looks good on paper – and as you said it takes time and development for a more advanced system so it may double as good quick fix. But if the game took in your method in the long run it would not help make the game better from a content perspective, IMO.

You say that you need both balance and diversity. I agree that diversity is not enough to completely rebalance, but if we add in the specialization part of my proposal it does top off that balance by rewarding a benefit for using a specific school. Also as stated in a previous post - diversity does address the current balance issue in debate, whether or not someone would get the benefit from a number of high end spells is irrelevant as long as those spells, when combined do not pose a SIGNIFICANT threat to game balance. Each spell would carry its own weight and of course having different options would be more powerful than not having options but should we eliminate the ability for a player to have sharpshooter and melee mastery in the game then, or is that something imbedded into the core belief structure?

Finally – I really don’t care about people whining about having to re-grind a skill because post-change they like X better than Y. Should we really hold back a good idea because someone wants something they don’t have now? At what point to we do what’s best for the game instead of catering to a few individuals? The growth of the game is dependent on good choices being made for the game in the long run, and it does need both growth and change. I think overall the player base would be happy if more depth and diversity would be added to skills despite taking on the new role they get or having to grab something else and grind it up. After all, it’s not like they lose the skill – acquiring a new one can only enhance their character. Either way, I feel it’s a week argument against the implementation.

Also on a side note…water magic already sucks I’m sure anyone with 100 would welcome any change…lol…

[DeathCorpse]

1. spells do need diversity, but that alone will not do a thing to keep people from using all of the spell schools. -- The elemental schools and arcane and necro all need to have distinct things that they do. I would say the easiest way to at least start on this is to work with whats already there. Make buffs and debuffs more viable and last longer in each school. or rework them so that they are distinct per school and viable options in pvp.

2. There needs to be a limit on how many schools you can use at one time or some type of penalty for using multiple schools. I liked a few ideas which could all be combined in some fashion. The title quest system is a good idea, giving your primary school extra power, whether it is a damage increase or some other bonus ( maybe some sort of inherent bonus) while diminishing other schools. I think two sub facets to this should be implemented. 1. What ever your primary elemental school is you cant use its opposite period. i.e. if you have fire as primary you cant use water. earth - air, arcane - necro etc. 2. you can use other elemental magic schools, but at a penalty to that school, either limit the level of spells you can use or put a severe damage penalty to that school, I would say around 50% damage reduction.

3. How many schools does it take to be viable in pvp? Personally I think that a full bred mage should be able to have lesser, greater, 1 elemental school, and either arcane or necro lines with no penalties.
So if I am primarily earth, I can not use air period and suffer some kind of penalty to fire, and water if I use them. I can then choose to go into the arcane or necro lines.


Now I'm ready to be a mage, after some thinking I decide that I'm going earth, I train up to say 50 then get the option to do a title quest for earth. ( opportunity for role players here with some story lines). after completing the quest maybe implement some sort of inherent bonus or stat specific from that school, like higher defense or more str something in line and specific to the elemental school. earth: maybe str, vitality, defense bonus - whatever.
Then I later choose to go necro, again I can do a title quest. Maybe add visual ques as to what lines someone has focused in. Once completing the necro quest, one of your arms turns to bone. This would not only look cool, but give visual ques as to what you can do. And give some bonus for necro, like defense or something.

This system does not in any way force someone to only certain schools. If you decide you want to do something else just do another title quest for another school and activate that school as primary. You should also suffer greater damage and penalties to debuffs from your opposing school(s).

If you ahve multiple title quests done, then you can change them around like you can with the current title quest system once every 24h with no charge.

This solves pretty much every issue with magic now. It prevents high nuke cycling, creates a more diverse mage population, while still allowing mages to be a potent weapon on the battle field.

[Legatosoren]

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