Darkfall vs. Skill Cap

[Mr. White]

A skill cap refers to a maximum number of skill points you can use making it necessary to carefully plan your character’s development. In a skill based game like Darkfall, this would emulate a class system. Players are forced to focus on becoming an archer, a crafter, a mage, a warrior etc. because there are not enough skill points to go around. Darkfall doesn’t have a skill cap and the reason why is one of our most frequently asked questions. We spoke with Claus Grovdal, Darkfall’s lead designer, who answered the community’s question and explained what Darkfall is doing instead.

Claus explained that Darkfall is designed for PvP and that it should be more about the player behind the character than the character itself. Class-based games tend to make you good at PvP through PvE and being good at PvP is all about class, level and gear. It gives players the illusion of diversity when in reality classes are never balanced. There’s always an overpowered flavor of the month class configuration. Adding levels to the equation compounds these imbalances and individual player skill becomes less and less important.

Many Darkfall community members argue that characters with developed skills have a strong advantage over newer characters. Claus pointed out that having an advantage is normal and has nothing to do with the complete domination that we encounter in class/level systems. People tend to forget that a relatively new Darkfall player with some work and individual player skill is very viable and competitive. You definitely can’t have that in a class/level system where even small level differences make it impossible to be competitive. This is why in most games PvP is usually restricted to the higher or even the highest levels: it simply doesn’t work before then.

Another argument against Darkfall’s open model is that competitive players need to work too hard at improving their characters and a skill cap would magically fix this. According to Claus, adding a skill cap would be taking away from the game and forcing players to give up their freedom. He explained that Darkfall’s philosophy is adding options rather than restrictions. Specialization options are already in the game, and many more are on their way. He offered three quick examples from October’s upcoming free expansion:

An option called Jumpshot allows you to jump and fire a bow at a 10 percent penalty on max mana. Aquatic Shot allows you to use a bow under water at a 5 percent penalty on max mana. Finally Mage-Killer will give you bonus damage against users wielding a staff but completely blocks your ability to use elemental, arcane, and necromancy magic. You could select to use all three of these options to get a real edge as an archer vs. magic at a 15 percent max mana penalty plus the magic use penalty. This is a choice you make, you’re not forced to do this, and if you don’t like it you can reverse it easily and get something else that suits your play-style better. There are many high-end specialization options available and more will be added with every update. Claus explained to us that this is the just first step in adding even more diversity to Darkfall.

From what we’ve seen, the changes look very exciting and we’re looking forward to seeing them in action in Darkfall’s upcoming free expansion. We’ll spotlight more features and updates that the new expansion brings in the next days and weeks leading up to it.

[DeadlyHit Eejit]

Wewt archer aditions win!

[TNoD]

Win!

[Leg enD]

thats exactly what i needed to here.


6month sub coming up.

[Spinx]

Awesome.

[DeadlyHit Eejit]

thats exactly what i needed to here.


6month sub coming up.
Go away dirty Leg. :) more ways to dominate you.

[Leg enD]

Go away dirty Leg. :) more ways to dominate you.

lies, new system in the works

might get fps over 25!! :D

[w0rm]

awesomesauce

[Elmi]

Yay! That's exactly my thoughts!
Yet another respect point for Claus's brains.

[Loadafreak]

This sounds like a good solution. I'll be instantly picking up mage-killer :D

[prodeForesta]

/win

[miyagisan]

Win !

[Narcowski]

I feel like Aventurine listened to my argument for meta-skill diversification - this makes me very happy to see.

Curious what the melee enhancements will be.

[Ezar]

wonder howmuch % the damage bonus would be, let's hope they keep it balanced

[Joschmo]

No jumpshot with bows-.-

[spool]

AV does it agian? Not sure about bonus to damage blocking me from Elemental magic stuff. its just obviosuly not a thing for me though, hope it works for others! More so now we need to see ways on the enemy getting close to a mage and not the mage just jump shotting him down.

GG AV, your doing well. I always had trust in you.

[raffraff]

Nice, glad I've not wasted much time grinding elemental, always tried to use minimal magic biding my time until they balance things. Can't wait to see how this stuff works out.

[hitandmiss]

I like this idea! now if u just impliment the reverse where by every mage school u take past 3/4 u take a hp/stam or wep/arch damage decrease!

[sociny]

fail, just add a burden arrow+jumpshoot without a fkin joke drain of stamina

[samureyed]

perfect

[w0rm]

wonder howmuch % the damage bonus would be, let's hope they keep it balanced

Yep, because I really expected a nerf in damage if you spec, not in Mana pool.

Anyway, can't wait to hear something about Melee specs.

[Shiva_Firewing]

wait wait...


no arcane, elemental or necro?!

that leave us with no buffs, (good) offensive damage spells, AoE's.

...that damage buff is also negated if the guy with the staff switches to a bow or sword between casts waiting on a cooldown.

WTB: AoE Arrows :S + More armour Pierces enchantable (as enchants and buffs dont stack, allow use to enchant armour pieces with different resist)

[Keno]

Sounds pretty good to me. Key word is "sounds"

[Jergux]

i think the expansion that is good for new players including me^^
it can pushes more players joining Darkfall

[bmfof]

So, wait, no skill cap is planned whatsoever?

What about everyone picking crafting for their toones, everyone able to make everything for himself? How is this going to be addresed then?

[Narcowski]

wonder howmuch % the damage bonus would be, let's hope they keep it balanced

20 30 or 50% based on the increases provided by current skills that increase things by some percentage. Being unable to use high end magics (on one's own - you can still get your friends to buff you, and that has more effect anyways) is a pretty major drawback, but I don't think they'll go for 50 on account of possibly breaking the balance, so my guess is 30%.

[lkx]

I'm that you have finally exposed your design point about this argument, it's about time.

I want to give you just a fast feedback:

"Many Darkfall community members argue that characters with developed skills have a strong advantage over newer characters."

I think that you've missed the point, it's more about how the characters will be, in one single class that have everything, than about the difference between newbie and developed char (a big trouble about it it's also about crafting and economy.


But, i understand that at this point a skill cap cannot be added , and i really hope that you will go through other system of specialization.

However, i have to warn you about a thing: please, don't embarrass yourself with sentencies like "Specialization options are already in the game".
No, they aren't. I'm really interested too see what you are going to add to the game, but at the moment there isn't any specializzation option... or you are refering to the spelladdons joke?

[Shino-PIC]

An option called Jumpshot allows you to jump and fire a bow at a 10 percent penalty on max mana. Aquatic Shot allows you to use a bow under water at a 5 percent penalty on max mana. Finally Mage-Killer will give you bonus damage against users wielding a staff but completely blocks your ability to use elemental, arcane, and necromancy magic. You could select to use all three of these options to get a real edge as an archer vs. magic at a 15 percent max mana penalty plus the magic use penalty.

While magic options (jumpcast, travel speed, damage) can be chosen w/o any penalties?

And my big personal + to this idea:
( http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=216319 )

2)Momentum system: lets be real here.
Add some sort of momentum system to the game. A system which would not cause much lag or computer strain, but allow for some realism and smoothness.

Players should not be able to INSTANTLY change any direction they want, this is absolutely rediculous for a medieval based game.
-The transition between idle and sprint should take a few seconds
-Players should slightly round their turns (atleast while sprinting)

This is the major reason as to why melee is gimped. A mage can run at the same exact speed as melee, turn 180 degrees on a dime, and unless the melee character has NO lag and a .000001 second reaction time he will not be able to catch up. Dumb huh?

*Of course this is a game so it shouldn’t perfectly simulate real life movement, but this is a vital mechanic that this game requires if melee wants to have any chance at anything.

[foggen]

Good for me with no skillcap -_- Archery sounds interesting since its my strong side. I will probably go archery if they actually balance it right with enough dmg vs no ability to heal/buff/cast nukes/aoe's

[The Critic]

Sup with the Donkey Rhubarb forum avatar?

[Narcowski]

While magic options (jumpcast, travel speed, damage) can be chosen w/o any penalties?

And my big personal + to this idea:
( http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=216319 )

Magic jumpcast is a 10% reduction in damage, and you can only have one magic addon per spell (as opposed to all of these bow addons).

[ChubtoadSUN]

wait wait...


no arcane, elemental or necro?!

that leave us with no buffs, (good) offensive damage spells, AoE's.

...that damage buff is also negated if the guy with the staff switches to a bow or sword between casts waiting on a cooldown.

WTB: AoE Arrows :S + More armour Pierces enchantable (as enchants and buffs dont stack, allow use to enchant armour pieces with different resist)


It may leave you with
Rend
Eldritch sphere(not that bad actually)
Confusion
needles
witches brew

[Kasmos]

Well this is certainly surprising, but hopefully they'll be able to implement it correctly. We'll just have to wait and see. They HAVE to create some sort of working diversification or this game is going to get completely boring.

[Emolas]

:O

Nice!

My sub is running out in a few days, but I'll definately resub later when this archery buff is in.. Going for all three of the buffs. :)

[Kaol]

It would have been nice to have air still since thats the archer-type elemental tree.

[Shiva_Firewing]

It may leave you with
Rend
Eldritch sphere(not that bad actually)
Confusion
needles
witches brew

Confusion and witches brew i'l give ye, add sacrifice to that and SC other people buffs and you'll get a bit there.

i'll even give ye Needels and that vitality debuff + burden.


....that removes my damage out (and i only have fire at 100) by around 300%. and that damage has a AoE radius.

so needles is a Dot - okay, i can live with that, does nice damage for a level 1 spell. it does about 50% of the damage of a Wall of fire, for the exact same cost - at the exact same level of spell.

what about fire/cold/acid/lighting wards? shoneskin? ironskin will be must have in every group.

how about haste and arrow haste, SPELLhaste....

unless this Mage-Killers starts killing mages in very, very large ammounts, and doesn't stop if they magicly switch with a macro to fullplate and a polearm... then i'd agree.

[TNoD]

Good for me with no skillcap -_- Archery sounds interesting since its my strong side. I will probably go archery if they actually balance it right with enough dmg vs no ability to heal/buff/cast nukes/aoe's

you can use sc wc lesser greater just no arcane necro elemental

[Slaker]

wow this is some good news!

[stega]

The simplicity of archery is also a major advantage imo... If you choose to specialize the restrictions to spells will allow you to focus on the few spells you do have at your disposal and hitting people with your arrows. While a mage with no restrictions has many more choices that can make things a bit more complex.

[foggen]

you can use sc wc lesser greater just no arcane necro elemental

your right, missread. Should allow buffs too though

[HeliosNorlund]

mr. white i love u :D

[ChubtoadSUN]

your right, missread. Should allow buffs too though

At least 100 Rend sort makes a little sense along with archer

[o0Tiny0o]

IMO its a good idea but has to be executed well or it could really screw things.

[Shiva_Firewing]

your right, missread. Should allow buffs too though

i agree here, either allow 1 elemental school, or select spells from the different schools. blocking TOTAL access to AoE's in-sane.

[Kasmos]

IMO its a good idea but has to be executed well or it could really screw things.

I agree completely. If implemented poorly (or unbalanced), we could be in one hell of a bumpy ride.

[Drefarion]

Awesome, but...

A skill decay would be nice, but not on stuff like LM, GM, Witchcraft and Spellchanting.

But on arcane, necro, elemental, and masteries.

It have to be executed very well though, like, if you make it too fast you'd fuck up people pretty quickly.

[~|~Damaja~|~]

wait wait...


no arcane, elemental or necro?!

that leave us with no buffs, (good) offensive damage spells, AoE's.

...that damage buff is also negated if the guy with the staff switches to a bow or sword between casts waiting on a cooldown.

WTB: AoE Arrows :S + More armour Pierces enchantable (as enchants and buffs dont stack, allow use to enchant armour pieces with different resist)

my thoughts as well when reading the news. I was really really hoping for a change to the jump mechanics over all not just considering what your holding in your hands.. to make it a little more realistic.
Why not allow jumping for any and all things under the sun but based on more realistic gravity, inertia mechanics. You could jump cast,archer, melee swing if you were jumping side to side forward or backwards but not allow unrealistic interia changes midway jump making for people to sprint jump turn shoot turn back again and repeat.
There doesn't need to be any "skill specialization" needed imo.
if you did turn one way or another mid jump and tried to change directions it would just stop your direction moving that way and maybe slightly give you a little the other way back again slightly.

the jump spin turn part of jumping is a terrible mechanic to have in a game like this imo. But being able to jump dodge shoot fire seems reasonable if applied properly. It allows for a fun intereesting fight without the cheesiness of bunny hopping everything.
Remember there was a reason they removed it before.

[vendettarock]

What about 'all players will be the same' argument?


Welcome to Counterfall. At least these is free to play.

With a skill cao you still have to power of choice, we need a more complex system.


This thread is just a excuse.

[foggen]

Awesome, but...

A skill decay would be nice, but not on stuff like LM, GM, Witchcraft and Spellchanting.

But on arcane, necro, elemental, and masteries.

It have to be executed very well though, like, if you make it too fast you'd fuck up people pretty quickly.

"sorry I cant come to the siege yet, I must train my magic for 5h first to be able to compete"

Skilldecay makes people cry. it would be awful for the casual user as well

[Raghnar]

"sorry I cant come to the siege yet, I must train my magic for 5h first to be able to compete"

Skilldecay makes people cry. it would be awful for the casual user as well

Skilldecay would make people cry but i bet you would rage quit if the implement that :sly:. Actually, everyone that grinded their asses to get their elemental would do that.

By the way, increasing the dmg output is not the main concern of this game. Nerfing the dmg would be way more wise. The fights in darkfall got in the state of boriness just because they are way to fast. Fights with magic last what? 10 seconds if there is no obstacle or if the people know how to play.

There is no fun in killing someone in 10 seconds. People should able to get jumped, get to 50% life and if they are good enough they can win that fight. You can argue that peole can do that but, well, you have to be extremely good and smart and not everyone is like that.

The focus is wrong imo. They should nerf magic aoes and their dmg. The idea of making less dmg based on the aoe spot that the magic hit is pretty good. Closer, hard hits and far weak hits. That would DEMAND actual skill from a mage. Today if the person is dedicated and farm to get 4-5 R90 nukes and circle those nukes we all have to agree that he was smart to do that but this takes no skill at all.

Buffing the other sides ( melee and archery) is good but not the major problem. Magic being overpowered due the high damage and the aoe is. If they could just nerf magic while making those changes that would be perfect.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. But i dunno if you guys agree. Fights, at least for me, that lasted 10 minutes or so were way funnier and epic than jumping in a group and kill them in 1 minute or so.

[HeliosNorlund]

i look forward to learn more about the magic role options

i would trade any extended archery skills (sharpshooter and so on)
against "below water surface spellcasting" for me is water/diving combat the only thing that force me to use a bow i would be happy to leave my bow in bank or vendor it

im unsure what kind of ability could some magic role player make sacrifice every melee mastery

must be something really cool :idea:

[Draxous]

No to skill decay.

And this thread is teh greatest. :D

:ninja:

[vanyok]

What about everyone picking crafting for their toones, everyone able to make everything for himself? How is this going to be addresed then?

There is nothing wrong with that.

[Kasmos]

No to skill decay.

And this thread is teh greatest. :D

:ninja:

By the way, congrats on being right that they wouldn't. All indication previously had led otherwise, but like I told you I would say before, you're right, I was wrong.

Now the big question is if this "system" is really going to create diversity.

Only time (and subscription numbers), will tell.

[Draxous]

What about everyone picking crafting for their toones, everyone able to make everything for himself? How is this going to be addresed then?

Why would that even need to be addressed?

[Kasmos]

There is nothing wrong with that.

I disagree completely. What is the point of being solely a crafter? What is the point of the caravan system? What is the point of player owned shops selling crafted items and gear?

If everyone can max out all crafting skills, crafted items become obsolete and worthless.

I'd be happy with this diversification system they are adding to melee and archery and magic (if they do it right that is), but I honestly feel if they don't want a skill decay system put in place which they stated they don't, they NEED to have a hard cap on all crafting skills. Make it so that you have enough points to be either low in all crafting skills or high in a few.

[Draxous]

I disagree completely. What is the point of being solely a crafter? What is the point of the caravan system? What is the point of player owned shops selling crafted items and gear?

What is the point?

Playing the game how you specifically want to is the point.

You are at no disadvantage and actually... players who devote their entire playtime to craft are actually at an advantage... because that is the focus of their attention. Just because others are free to craft stuff too, doesn't mean they will nor does it take away from the crafters who want to focus on that stuff.

And this doesn't negatively effect the economy. Ultima Online's Siege Perilous shard has demonstrated that rock solidly.

[coder1024]

Playing the game how you specifically want to is the point.
And this is what the devs are saying by no skill cap. If you want to grind up everything over time, then they're not going to stop you.

[kdchan]

A skill cap refers to a maximum number of skill points you can use making it necessary to carefully plan your character’s development. In a skill based game like Darkfall, this would emulate a class system. Players are forced to focus on becoming an archer, a crafter, a mage, a warrior etc. because there are not enough skill points to go around. Darkfall doesn’t have a skill cap and the reason why is one of our most frequently asked questions. We spoke with Claus Grovdal, Darkfall’s lead designer, who answered the community’s question and explained what Darkfall is doing instead.

Claus explained that Darkfall is designed for PvP and that it should be more about the player behind the character than the character itself. Class-based games tend to make you good at PvP through PvE and being good at PvP is all about class, level and gear. It gives players the illusion of diversity when in reality classes are never balanced. There’s always an overpowered flavor of the month class configuration. Adding levels to the equation compounds these imbalances and individual player skill becomes less and less important.

Many Darkfall community members argue that characters with developed skills have a strong advantage over newer characters. Claus pointed out that having an advantage is normal and has nothing to do with the complete domination that we encounter in class/level systems. People tend to forget that a relatively new Darkfall player with some work and individual player skill is very viable and competitive. You definitely can’t have that in a class/level system where even small level differences make it impossible to be competitive. This is why in most games PvP is usually restricted to the higher or even the highest levels: it simply doesn’t work before then.

Another argument against Darkfall’s open model is that competitive players need to work too hard at improving their characters and a skill cap would magically fix this. According to Claus, adding a skill cap would be taking away from the game and forcing players to give up their freedom. He explained that Darkfall’s philosophy is adding options rather than restrictions. Specialization options are already in the game, and many more are on their way. He offered three quick examples from October’s upcoming free expansion:

An option called Jumpshot allows you to jump and fire a bow at a 10 percent penalty on max mana. Aquatic Shot allows you to use a bow under water at a 5 percent penalty on max mana. Finally Mage-Killer will give you bonus damage against users wielding a staff but completely blocks your ability to use elemental, arcane, and necromancy magic. You could select to use all three of these options to get a real edge as an archer vs. magic at a 15 percent max mana penalty plus the magic use penalty. This is a choice you make, you’re not forced to do this, and if you don’t like it you can reverse it easily and get something else that suits your play-style better. There are many high-end specialization options available and more will be added with every update. Claus explained to us that this is the just first step in adding even more diversity to Darkfall.

From what we’ve seen, the changes look very exciting and we’re looking forward to seeing them in action in Darkfall’s upcoming free expansion. We’ll spotlight more features and updates that the new expansion brings in the next days and weeks leading up to it.

This is bad dude, jumpspin for archer back? No skill cap? No global cooldown for magic?
Sorry but you broke my last hope and sorry to say prolly i don't resub.
Can't accept the fact people can cycle 4 aoes of 4 different schools plus all debuff/buff like reflection, witches brew and so on.
This make who grind and spend more time in game always win. This nerdrage spamfest of magic without any player skill at all make me very sad. The first days of DF will always be the best, now is a shit.

In the end you Av lie about the skill cap you promise and promote in the faqs, i think is too late and you can't manage to balance the game anymore.

Skill cap was the only promise feature keep me playing till now but now i know it will never happen, thanks for the truth aniway but i prolly leave with my entire guild after this new. Grind every skill in the game and long char development is bad for a pvp game u claim to be, even shit games like aion understand this and put a cap to 50 where in the end only the player ability matter and not how many skills and magic schools u level up to 100.

Very sad Aventurine but thanks to try make a game different, i really enjoy it for a lot of time.

[Xandar464]

So with "only 15%" loss in mana, I'm sure most can still cicle trough all their top end AOE's and then just switch to bow ?

Or am I missing something ?

[Draxous]

No global cooldown for magic?


Just because this wasn't mentioned, doesn't mean it's not going to happen. They maybe currently considering alternatives to global cooldowns too.

Remember, the xpack hasn't even been released yet... I'd rather not assume anything other than what we're told, just yet.

[HeliosNorlund]

So with "only 15%" loss in mana, I'm sure most can still cicle trough all their top end AOE's and then just switch to bow ?

Or am I missing something ?

yes u miss all the other changes in that patch

i expect all magic get a nerf

but u can get back magic to the strenght it have now
by sacrifice other stuff like archery and/or melee mastery and shit like that

it would be the same that happend to archery

they lost jumpshooting now can buy back for a sacrifice

and i guess magic get the nerf and the ability to buy strenght back in the same patch

[stega]

So with "only 15%" loss in mana, I'm sure most can still cicle trough all their top end AOE's and then just switch to bow ?

Or am I missing something ?

Yhea learn to read... They said if you choose to specialize in the mage killer ability you wont be able to use elemental magic or necro/arcane.

[Dargnon]

Win

[Shino-PIC]

So with "only 15%" loss in mana, I'm sure most can still cicle trough all their top end AOE's and then just switch to bow ?

Or am I missing something ?

Yeah, you miss the point...
They will be able to switch to bow even without any losses, but will get an option to sacrifice 15% of mana for archery boost (still useless for them while circling aoes).

[ZtyX]

Thanks a lot to Claus Grovdal and the community staff for taking their time to bring this sneak peak to the community.

This is truly exciting and radical!

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on that myself. Perhaps I will in fact be able to go back to riding my horse and kill players using staves more easily! They will no longer be able to heal their way out of trouble.

However, I have become rather fond of magic and even if I am not the most awesome mage I am still enjoying the many different abilities mages can get. I like shooting teamspells and be able to work as a team with my friends for success.

It will be a real dillemma for me whether I will sacrifice magic now to get Mage Killer or not. However, I am sure many archers who have low magic will do this. Including my friend Deen Ziggy and Bogey Man.

Perhaps mixing these playstyles in a team is the best.

[Mezmorized]

There is only 24 hours in a day.

7 hours for school 3-4 hours with your g/f or b/f if u have one, 9 hours for work the rest of the time one dedicates to sleep/darkfall.

now I highly doubt that 90% of the population is under 17 and uses there daddys credit card to play the game. even though its to late for skill cap, Im just putting out this info to explain that a skill cap will just hurt the game more than it will help.

Theyre going in the right direction already with the prestige class system..oh and remeber you dont have to choose a specialization...you can be all that you can be:lmao:

the hardcore player base...ie...ppl that play 10 hrs a day+ is very small....how many members in your clans dont work and play all day? not many....

play the game have fun...last night I got owned in a noobie town 3v2 they had higher magic than me...but you know what...3v2 and how they killed me made sense...at no point at all did I feel I had no chance...they chased me for a bit I couldve had made better decisions...and of course be better prepared. <-- thats the game...play smart use whats at your disposal.

[Mezmorized]

Thanks a lot to Claus Grovdal and the community staff for taking their time to bring this sneak peak to the community.

This is truly exciting and radical!

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on that myself. Perhaps I will in fact be able to go back to riding my horse and kill players using staves more easily! They will no longer be able to heal their way out of trouble.

However, I have become rather fond of magic and even if I am not the most awesome mage I am still enjoying the many different abilities mages can get. I like shooting teamspells and be able to work as a team with my friends for success.

It will be a real dillemma for me whether I will sacrifice magic now to get Mage Killer or not. However, I am sure many archers who have low magic will do this. Including my friend Deen Ziggy and Bogey Man.

Perhaps mixing these playstyles in a team is the best.


and imagine the possibilities in a siege..or a small raid party with just a few with diff specializations...tactics ftw:eek:

[OminousHorseman]

A skill cap refers to a maximum number of skill points you can use making it necessary to carefully plan your character’s development. In a skill based game like Darkfall, this would emulate a class system. Players are forced to focus on becoming an archer, a crafter, a mage, a warrior etc. because there are not enough skill points to go around. Darkfall doesn’t have a skill cap and the reason why is one of our most frequently asked questions. We spoke with Claus Grovdal, Darkfall’s lead designer, who answered the community’s question and explained what Darkfall is doing instead.

Claus explained that Darkfall is designed for PvP and that it should be more about the player behind the character than the character itself. Class-based games tend to make you good at PvP through PvE and being good at PvP is all about class, level and gear. It gives players the illusion of diversity when in reality classes are never balanced. There’s always an overpowered flavor of the month class configuration. Adding levels to the equation compounds these imbalances and individual player skill becomes less and less important.

Many Darkfall community members argue that characters with developed skills have a strong advantage over newer characters. Claus pointed out that having an advantage is normal and has nothing to do with the complete domination that we encounter in class/level systems. People tend to forget that a relatively new Darkfall player with some work and individual player skill is very viable and competitive. You definitely can’t have that in a class/level system where even small level differences make it impossible to be competitive. This is why in most games PvP is usually restricted to the higher or even the highest levels: it simply doesn’t work before then.

Another argument against Darkfall’s open model is that competitive players need to work too hard at improving their characters and a skill cap would magically fix this. According to Claus, adding a skill cap would be taking away from the game and forcing players to give up their freedom. He explained that Darkfall’s philosophy is adding options rather than restrictions. Specialization options are already in the game, and many more are on their way. He offered three quick examples from October’s upcoming free expansion:

An option called Jumpshot allows you to jump and fire a bow at a 10 percent penalty on max mana. Aquatic Shot allows you to use a bow under water at a 5 percent penalty on max mana. Finally Mage-Killer will give you bonus damage against users wielding a staff but completely blocks your ability to use elemental, arcane, and necromancy magic. You could select to use all three of these options to get a real edge as an archer vs. magic at a 15 percent max mana penalty plus the magic use penalty. This is a choice you make, you’re not forced to do this, and if you don’t like it you can reverse it easily and get something else that suits your play-style better. There are many high-end specialization options available and more will be added with every update. Claus explained to us that this is the just first step in adding even more diversity to Darkfall.

From what we’ve seen, the changes look very exciting and we’re looking forward to seeing them in action in Darkfall’s upcoming free expansion. We’ll spotlight more features and updates that the new expansion brings in the next days and weeks leading up to it.

its kool what they are doing but, i still dont believe that 15% penalty loss total to max mana isn't enough when taking all three. i would jump it to 30% per upgrade than you would create some diversity. instead of everyone being everything as the game is today.

[Kasmos]

What is the point?

Playing the game how you specifically want to is the point.

You are at no disadvantage and actually... players who devote their entire playtime to craft are actually at an advantage... because that is the focus of their attention. Just because others are free to craft stuff too, doesn't mean they will nor does it take away from the crafters who want to focus on that stuff.

And this doesn't negatively effect the economy. Ultima Online's Siege Perilous shard has demonstrated that rock solidly.

I understand the "point", I'm talking about the "repercussions" of allowing said point towards crafting.

Tell me, what incentive does anyone entering the game have to be a straight crafter?

If I spend a month grinding up my crafting skills, what incentive do I as a PvPer have to buy from a crafter?

What incentive do I have to travel to another region for a cheaper set of "x" armor if I can spend not too long of a time to create my own WHILE increasing my stats?

What incentive would anyone have to use caravans or player owned houses if people have 50 homemade sets of the items the crafter is selling anyway?


These are just a few downsides that I believe exist with the current crafting system. Now, if they were to add some sort of major customizable overhaul to the system, such as allowing access to skills that allow the creation of rare items or new armors/weapons at the severe cost of damage output or something, I could also see that as a possibility. But leaving it how it is now is a horrible idea in my opinion.

[Krucial]

I disagree completely. What is the point of being solely a crafter? What is the point of the caravan system? What is the point of player owned shops selling crafted items and gear?

If everyone can max out all crafting skills, crafted items become obsolete and worthless.

I'd be happy with this diversification system they are adding to melee and archery and magic (if they do it right that is), but I honestly feel if they don't want a skill decay system put in place which they stated they don't, they NEED to have a hard cap on all crafting skills. Make it so that you have enough points to be either low in all crafting skills or high in a few.

why not a title for crafters?

how the titles work?

1 title for each type of crafters (armor, weapon, alchemy, etc), this title reduce in 50% the gold cost and time for make an item.

50k of gold for each title, you can have one title only, if you need other title you will buy other (more 50k) and lost the currently title (same system of magic specialization).

[wagz21187]

Class based systems are only rock-paper-scissors when not designed properly. Shadowbane had an awesome class based system IMO. You played a certain type of class for its playstyle. This mage killer crap is so hypocritical, it is hard coded rock-paper-scissors. Even worse than a class based system IMO. Basically mage-killer archer always wins vs magic user.

You guys should just fix the circle sprinting mechanics. Make melee hit harder, give armor more mitigation. Also some weapon attack skills would be nice, ones that actually do something.

I like the specializations, but I think it should be more along the lines of sacrificing elems, necro, arcane for a 20% damage increase.

[Shiva_Firewing]

So with "only 15%" loss in mana, I'm sure most can still cicle trough all their top end AOE's and then just switch to bow ?

Or am I missing something ?

nope, about it - we need to see what the rest brings but yh, 2 archery buffs - everyone taking them for the kiting/underwater combat (where they cant use magic anyhow).

yes u miss all the other changes in that patch

i expect all magic get a nerf

but u can get back magic to the strenght it have now
by sacrifice other stuff like archery and/or melee mastery and shit like that

it would be the same that happend to archery

they lost jumpshooting now can buy back for a sacrifice

and i guess magic get the nerf and the ability to buy strenght back in the same patch

we dont know what other changes are coming.

Cheaper ships,
roaming mobs,
some form of local banking.

...no details until these 3 here. and the first 2 are a "must have" to use bows underwater (only attack) or jump shoot with bows (you'll be doomed if you dont have it), the third one will not be used at all. NO ONE is insane enough to give up on n 9/10 of his "good" spells... just for a damage buff taht only works if the enemy is wearing a staff.

remember, the other gmae dude can just pop out a bow AND buff up as well and you'll be at a double disatvanage.

[Elmi]

I understand the "point", I'm talking about the "repercussions" of allowing said point towards crafting.

Look at higher rank weapons and armour while you craft your 123th banded set. It requires rare materials and metals: thing that is NOT available for MOST players.

So point is - if you are dedicated crafter you will seek for that rares, and make highend equipment. And other people will buy it from you, even if they have 100 in every craft mastery.

Going to location X for cheaper bone set is myth, ruined by runestones and bindstone/house recall.

[Tren]

A skill cap refers to a maximum number of skill points you can use making it necessary to carefully plan your character’s development. In a skill based game like Darkfall, this would emulate a class system. Players are forced to focus on becoming an archer, a crafter, a mage, a warrior etc. because there are not enough skill points to go around. Darkfall doesn’t have a skill cap and the reason why is one of our most frequently asked questions. We spoke with Claus Grovdal, Darkfall’s lead designer, who answered the community’s question and explained what Darkfall is doing instead.


Claus explained that Darkfall is designed for PvP and that it should be more about the player behind the character than the character itself. Class-based games tend to make you good at PvP through PvE
Uh? That’s a bit of a leap...!?

and being good at PvP is all about class, level and gear.
It would be about which skills you have and what level they are, your gear and a pinch of real player skill. Were as without a cap it’s about which skills you have and what level they are, your gear and a pinch of real player skill. Not seeing the difference here? There is a valid argument against a skillcap regarding PvP but it isn't this one

It gives players the illusion of diversity when in reality classes are never balanced. There’s always an overpowered flavor of the month class configuration.
There is an obvious overpowered FOTM problem at the moment if you hadn’t noticed.

Adding levels to the equation compounds these imbalances and individual player skill becomes less and less important.
I agree and that’s why I don’t think anyone else has even mentioned levels.

Many Darkfall community members argue that characters with developed skills have a strong advantage over newer characters. Claus pointed out that having an advantage is normal and has nothing to do with the complete domination that we encounter in class/level systems.
True, but the argument was in the degree of the power gap not in its existence. A cap system amongst other things intrinsically puts a cap on the maximum power difference between players.

People tend to forget that a relatively new Darkfall player with some work and individual player skill is very viable and competitive. You definitely can’t have that in a class/level system where even small level differences make it impossible to be competitive.
Again I don’t think anyone was arguing for a level system like WOW or EQ but even if they where there is nothing intrinsic to a level based system that says there has to such a large gap between the levels, it’s just the way other games have implemented their systems.

I feel Claus is just setting up a straw-man argument by suggesting a skill cap would automatically being about a WOW or EQ style class/level system with a huge difference in potency between the levels. Which is a long way away from a skill system with a cap (see UO or even Oblivion for an example of skill systems that don’t involve levels)

This is why in most games PvP is usually restricted to the higher or even the highest levels: it simply doesn’t work before then.
Again I don’t feel that it is an intrinsic property of level based systems and again I don’t think anyone was even arguing for a level based system.

Another argument against Darkfall’s open model is that competitive players need to work too hard at improving their characters and a skill cap would magically fix this.
They would have to do less work to reach the point where they cannot gain anymore power directly though in-game skills I don’t see how you can argue against that.

According to Claus, adding a skill cap would be taking away from the game and forcing players to give up their freedom.
This is true to some extent and so far the only point I will partially concede to if that is the intended design goal then fair enough I guess I will just have to live with it but it also partly depends on the implementation. An example being imagine if you regained previously attained skills at a vastly increased rate then would it be so different from a system that required you to pick a prestige title (fixed template of strengths and weaknesses which you could change daily with a cost)?

He explained that Darkfall’s philosophy is adding options rather than restrictions.
Sounds good but in this context options require choices, choices necessitate restrictions or there would be no choice to be made?

Specialization options are already in the game,
If you say so.

and many more are on their way. He offered three quick examples from October’s upcoming free expansion:
An option called Jumpshot allows you to jump and fire a bow at a 10 percent penalty on max mana. Aquatic Shot allows you to use a bow under water at a 5 percent penalty on max mana. Finally Mage-Killer will give you bonus damage against users wielding a staff but completely blocks your ability to use elemental, arcane, and necromancy magic. You could select to use all three of these options to get a real edge as an archer vs. magic at a 15 percent max mana penalty plus the magic use penalty. This is a choice you make, you’re not forced to do this, and if you don’t like it you can reverse it easily and get something else that suits your play-style better. There are many high-end specialization options available and more will be added with every update. Claus explained to us that this is the just first step in adding even more diversity to Darkfall.
Well overall it’s good to hear they are doing something about diversity even if I feel the main argument for skill caps has been badly misrepresented here.

From what we’ve seen, the changes look very exciting and we’re looking forward to seeing them in action in Darkfall’s upcoming free expansion. We’ll spotlight more features and updates that the new expansion brings in the next days and weeks leading up to it.

[ArcaneWraith]

So with "only 15%" loss in mana, I'm sure most can still cicle trough all their top end AOE's and then just switch to bow ?

Or am I missing something ?

What "top end nukes" are in lesser magic, greater magic, witchcraft and spellchanting? Yeah let's just rend/needles them then pull out the bow, yeeaahh!

[James Troll]

Can't accept the fact people can cycle 4 aoes of 4 different schools plus all debuff/buff like reflection, witches brew and so on.
This make who grind and spend more time in game always win. This nerdrage spamfest of magic without any player skill at all make me very sad. The first days of DF will always be the best, now is a shit.

This is my feeling too, but let's see how they balance that. I'm sure AV does not want to have crazy AOE spammers mages everywhere neither.

[Patriota]

Very good point from AV, but something got be done about ppl being able to use 7 different nukes, battles finish before it gets close because of that.

[Rigan Pere]

If the info there is correct, I dont like it - sure the addons are great but its by no means a method to create diversity.

Everyone will pick up jump-shot and aquatic shot and take the louzy mana penalty.

No one will pick up mage-killer due to the fact you will lose the ability to cast buffs and I guarantee elemental buffs will be more valuable than any bonus dmg to "mages".

Granted, I have no idea what other changes are in store but so far, not good enough.

[Abaratican]

So, wait, no skill cap is planned whatsoever?

What about everyone picking crafting for their toones, everyone able to make everything for himself? How is this going to be addresed then?

This is not a problem... so it won't be addressed!

[Mezmorized]

"An option called Jumpshot allows you to jump and fire a bow at a 10 percent penalty on max mana. Aquatic Shot allows you to use a bow under water at a 5 percent penalty on max mana. Finally Mage-Killer will give you bonus damage against users wielding a staff but completely blocks your ability to use elemental, arcane, and necromancy magic. You could select to use all three of these options to get a real edge as an archer vs. magic at a 15 percent max mana penalty plus the magic use penalty. This is a choice you make, you’re not forced to do this, and if you don’t like it you can reverse it easily and get something else that suits your play-style better."

Lets break this down shall we?

they used archery as an example..."There are many high-end specialization options available and more will be added with every update"

Jump Shot - 10% max mana penalty - you can jump with a bow - so far from what we know no dmg penalty
Aquatic Shot - <-- no more shooting arrows underwater unless you have this option unlocked by getting the speciality 5% max mana penalty
Mage-Killer -from what I gathered - unlocked by selecting archery specialization - penalty includes - elemental, arcane, and necromancy magic blocked from use - there goes your 100 aoes and 50 nukes spell reflect and bubble - cursed bolt and 100 necro aoe - leaving you with lesser magic - burden,stam2hp,mana2stam,healself - greater magic - unburden,rend,launch, - WitchCraft - Witches Brew, Needles, Ominous Drain -Spell Chanting - Max Mana <--,Max HP <-- Max Stam <--

to be honest this is the exact system we needed...we can use anything we want if we "CHOOSE" to, I myself rather specialize in something im good at rather than train everything to 100 and attempt to use it all in a fight...how many spells do you get off in 1v1's with 100 everything...not all 50 of em thats for freaking sure...

now remeber...im sure they will add a gold cost as well...ie...something like WoW's system to prevent people from just going off all day switching specials. Over time it will be costly...as the hours pass by it will decrease...or maybe something just static like the magic addons - 1000g for every switch...thats costly imo.

[Abremalist]

Everyone will pick up jump-shot and aquatic shot and take the louzy mana penalty.


A few percentage loss of max mana is totally worthless. How much in demand are mana potions, +mana items etc? Not at all.

That needs some serious rethinking.


No one will pick up mage-killer due to the fact you will lose the ability to cast buffs and I guarantee elemental buffs will be more valuable than any bonus dmg to "mages".


My wife will, and I will be there to buff her. 2nd person buffs are better anyhow.


Granted, I have no idea what other changes are in store but so far, not good enough.

I have hope. Love to see 'Aquatic mage' ...

[Manik78]

No one will pick up mage-killer due to the fact you will lose the ability to cast buffs and I guarantee elemental buffs will be more valuable than any bonus dmg to "mages".


I will.

[Keno]

No one will pick up mage-killer due to the fact you will lose the ability to cast buffs and I guarantee elemental buffs will be more valuable than any bonus dmg to "mages".

Granted, I have no idea what other changes are in store but so far, not good enough.

IF they do the damage correctly with the Mage Killer ability, a lot of people with good aim with archery will pick it up. The key word here is "IF." If they make the damage viable than it will be used.

[Abremalist]

This is my feeling too, but let's see how they balance that. I'm sure AV does not want to have crazy AOE spammers mages everywhere neither.

I hope that you can specialise as a 'Earth mage' and through such specialisation gain a +effect on Earth but a -effect on all other elementals/necs/arcane.

If you want to dish out maximum damage, you'd specialise as 'Earth Mage' and pick an transmuted q5 earth staff + magnitude. If they'd make that give +30% damage compared to the current corpsecaller + rotating AoE's it work.

[thedrumchannell]

This idea is full of PURE win, and is a much better alternative to a skillcap. :)

Sub Sub

[Leg enD]

comeback after some thought on this

mage-killer almost crosses the fine line between player roles for me (roles = bad)

i'll wait to see the other buffs before i QQ but tbh, i dont like it.

now we have 2 builds people... get your pens out there's work to do.

p.s specs = roles = builds = cap.

p.p.s bad is bad however you look at it

[Rigan Pere]

IF they do the damage correctly with the Mage Killer ability, a lot of people with good aim with archery will pick it up. The key word here is "IF." If they make the damage viable than it will be used.

and we both know thats a big fucking IF, they aint gunna make the dmg good enough, I'll bet ya.

[[DJ]Lodda]

Surely having the mage killer bonus, just as an overall damage increase would make sense?

It will still be possible for someone to use archery/melee/spells, but they just won't do extra damage with their bow vs someone with a staff in their hand...

Why do archers need to specifically do more damage to spell casters at a cost of not having their own nukes? Just give them a damage boost regardless of what their opponent is wielding if they choose to go down the route of not using any nukes?

[Rigan Pere]

To add on to the rant with "mage-killer";

What the f**k does one do when someone turtles up if you have mage killer activated????

Mana missile them to death?

[Shiva_Firewing]

Lodda;3775194']Surely having the mage killer bonus, just as an overall damage increase would make sense?

It will still be possible for someone to use archery/melee/spells, but they just won't do extra damage with their bow vs someone with a staff in their hand...

Why do archers need to specifically do more damage to spell casters at a cost of not having their own nukes? Just give them a damage boost regardless of what their opponent is wielding if they choose to go down the route of not using any nukes?

that and the nuker dude can just pull out a bow of his own and go fuck all on the mager killers userless mage... oh, and he buffed before the battle.

[Kiad]

We havent seen Melee Specs too and you can probably bet there is going to be more anti mage in there. If they make the damage increase against mage substantial, I'm sure this will work. I still see everyone respecing to mage for sieges tho.

[White Horseman]

i agree here, either allow 1 elemental school, or select spells from the different schools. blocking TOTAL access to AoE's in-sane.

I agree and disagree. I do think they should allow spells from different schools, namely the buffs, i do not think they should allow access to AOE's or damage spells if you have mage killer.

[FastEddy]

What kind of protection does infernal/dragon/fullplate give you against spells?

[Abaratican]

To add on to the rant with "mage-killer";

What the f**k does one do when someone turtles up if you have mage killer activated????

Mana missile them to death?

rend, needles, and eldritch sphere do not suck.

[Maarmite]

Well this sounds good and remarkably similar to something I posted a few weeks ago : http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=214016

[White Horseman]

They should make mage killer give a bonus based off armor types not weapon.

Its too easy to cast your spell and unequip your staff while waiting on the cool downt hen equip cast unequip.

Mage killer should work off cloth/leather/studded/bone. This will give a further specialization as the melees will go with banded/scale/plate to avoid the extra damage making the classes alittle more defined.

[Rigan Pere]

rend, needles, and eldritch sphere do not suck.

LOL.

I dare you to duel someone who turtles up using those spells, then come back and report.

[fitzbean]

wewt

[Azraine]

the system they plan to implement is just as good as any skill cap in my opinion, you get the choice to not play one play style in favour of another and thats all i ever asked for, HURRAY!

[kukimata]

Hmm interesting, not bad so far. But i still have to see melee specs to have my judgement.

[[DJ]Lodda]

that and the nuker dude can just pull out a bow of his own and go fuck all on the mager killers userless mage... oh, and he buffed before the battle.

Exactly, there are quite a few glaringly obvious flaws with this Mage Killer idea.

If these bonuses will negate the effectiveness of each other combat type (rock paper scissors for example) then there will become a 4th type of player who opts to not use any of the upgrades and they'll be the ones capable of hurting you the most.

[Naimi]

your right, missread. Should allow buffs too though

They should fix the ways "buff others and heal others" work so you could play with a friend who specializes in being a support character with heals/buffs. Which at the moment due to badly implemented mechanics is just too frustrating.

[MortalZero]

No skill cap is fantastic news. Thanks you put a end to the stupid cap polls. No skill cap is one of the point i bought Darkfall at all.

[[DJ]Lodda]

the system they plan to implement is just as good as any skill cap in my opinion, you get the choice to not play one play style in favour of another and thats all i ever asked for, HURRAY!

Yes, but the player with Mage Killer will only have the damage bonus vs a char who is using a staff. Unless the damage bonus is insanely high, there is nothing stopping the 'caster' from just dropping his staff after firing off all of their 90/100 nukes and equipping a high end bow/melee wep and dishing out some more damage that way.

Edit: The Mage Killer modifier needs to be a damage increase across the board, rather than just vs chars with a staff equipped. I understand AV were trying to find a way to boost archery damage vs 'mages' to make it a more viable option in pvp, however with the current skill diversity there is no real way of determining who is a mage and who isn't as everyone seems to be a bit of everything.

[Xathian]

so Instead of actually Balancing the Magic schools and adding in a global cooldown they just beef other shit to become as powerfull , dead game incoming

[dariobrun]

Skilldecay would make people cry but i bet you would rage quit if the implement that :sly:. Actually, everyone that grinded their asses to get their elemental would do that.

By the way, increasing the dmg output is not the main concern of this game. Nerfing the dmg would be way more wise. The fights in darkfall got in the state of boriness just because they are way to fast. Fights with magic last what? 10 seconds if there is no obstacle or if the people know how to play.

There is no fun in killing someone in 10 seconds. People should able to get jumped, get to 50% life and if they are good enough they can win that fight. You can argue that peole can do that but, well, you have to be extremely good and smart and not everyone is like that.

The focus is wrong imo. They should nerf magic aoes and their dmg. The idea of making less dmg based on the aoe spot that the magic hit is pretty good. Closer, hard hits and far weak hits. That would DEMAND actual skill from a mage. Today if the person is dedicated and farm to get 4-5 R90 nukes and circle those nukes we all have to agree that he was smart to do that but this takes no skill at all.

Buffing the other sides ( melee and archery) is good but not the major problem. Magic being overpowered due the high damage and the aoe is. If they could just nerf magic while making those changes that would be perfect.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. But i dunno if you guys agree. Fights, at least for me, that lasted 10 minutes or so were way funnier and epic than jumping in a group and kill them in 1 minute or so.

^
completely agree with this...we need to lower down all types of dmg instead of buffing them up; fight nowaday last 5-10s usually with people hitting each other for 50-60-80dmg a hit, you miss once, your parry don't go up once or whatever else and you are dead with few chances to get back up.

[v1cker]

^
completely agree with this...we need to lower down all types of dmg instead of buffing them up; fight nowaday last 5-10s usually with people hitting each other for 50-60-80dmg a hit, you miss once, your parry don't go up once or whatever else and you are dead with few chances to get back up.

This could be fixed very easily and has nothing at all to do with this thread.

[siv]

^
completely agree with this...we need to lower down all types of dmg instead of buffing them up; fight nowaday last 5-10s usually with people hitting each other for 50-60-80dmg a hit, you miss once, your parry don't go up once or whatever else and you are dead with few chances to get back up.

100% Agree! And is something I have been thinking for a long time. Damaged dished out is not balanced enough considering how much you can heal. So usually you are never going to turn a fight around where the other player has the hp advantage. I hate that fights dont bounce back and fourth, and that you would normally NEVER start to heal in a 1v1. Also damage caps would be awesome. I hate the 10 second fights.

[Kasmos]

Mage killer should work off cloth/leather/studded/bone. This will give a further specialization as the melees will go with banded/scale/plate to avoid the extra damage making the classes alittle more defined.

Aha! This is what I was waiting for someone to do.

Notice the bolded word. The OP was all about how they were trying to avoid "flavors of the month" (which we already have if anyone hasn't obviously noticed...), and levels/classes.

Well what do you think this "specialization" is going to make? If the specializations aren't that noticeable, it's not going to do much of anything. BUT, if they are pretty noticeable, it's going to just create more "flavors of the month" AND player "classes".

Isn't this everyone's argument who is against skill caps why they don't want skill caps implemented?

[Archetype90]

This is fucking hawt. I hope there are similar changes for melee this patch.

[Bobbie]

sigh. still no global cd's between schools. I hope the actual content they add saves this "expansion".

[Draxous]

Skilldecay would make people cry but i bet you would rage quit if the implement that :sly:. Actually, everyone that grinded their asses to get their elemental would do that.

By the way, increasing the dmg output is not the main concern of this game. Nerfing the dmg would be way more wise. The fights in darkfall got in the state of boriness just because they are way to fast. Fights with magic last what? 10 seconds if there is no obstacle or if the people know how to play.

There is no fun in killing someone in 10 seconds. People should able to get jumped, get to 50% life and if they are good enough they can win that fight. You can argue that peole can do that but, well, you have to be extremely good and smart and not everyone is like that.

The focus is wrong imo. They should nerf magic aoes and their dmg. The idea of making less dmg based on the aoe spot that the magic hit is pretty good. Closer, hard hits and far weak hits. That would DEMAND actual skill from a mage. Today if the person is dedicated and farm to get 4-5 R90 nukes and circle those nukes we all have to agree that he was smart to do that but this takes no skill at all.

Buffing the other sides ( melee and archery) is good but not the major problem. Magic being overpowered due the high damage and the aoe is. If they could just nerf magic while making those changes that would be perfect.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. But i dunno if you guys agree. Fights, at least for me, that lasted 10 minutes or so were way funnier and epic than jumping in a group and kill them in 1 minute or so.

^
completely agree with this...we need to lower down all types of dmg instead of buffing them up; fight nowaday last 5-10s usually with people hitting each other for 50-60-80dmg a hit, you miss once, your parry don't go up once or whatever else and you are dead with few chances to get back up.

I'd like to point out the other end of the spectrum... and that's drawing out the battles.

There are advantages to fast paced PvP, such as not needing a bunch of friends to be effective solo.

You have to understand that the harder it is to defeat an opponent, the more you promote zerging and large group warfare... and there's a point you can even reach where it's almost required that you have buddies with you just to get kills.

Food for thought... I'm not saying that nerfing as opposed to buffing these things isn't a good approach, but I think the key here is balance so that PvP is fast enough paced that it's fun and engaging and not slow enough that you strip the solo artist of his or her effectiveness.

my 2 cents.

[Draxous]

sigh. still no global cd's between schools. I hope the actual content they add saves this "expansion".

Like I said, just because it wasn't mentioned here; doesn't mean it's not coming.

They maybe exploring alternatives to global cd's at the moment... and haven't yet made a concrete decision on the subject.

I heard patience is a virtue. ;)

[Leg enD]

Aha! This is what I was waiting for someone to do.

Notice the bolded word. The OP was all about how they were trying to avoid "flavors of the month" (which we already have if anyone hasn't obviously noticed...), and levels/classes.

Well what do you think this "specialization" is going to make? If the specializations aren't that noticeable, it's not going to do much of anything. BUT, if they are pretty noticeable, it's going to just create more "flavors of the month" AND player "classes".

Isn't this everyone's argument who is against skill caps why they don't want skill caps implemented?

have to agree here specs/roles/builds/caps are all the same thing

so yay for the jumpshot - under water effort was pointless

and nay for the mage killer


think harder AV.

[Manik78]

I'd like to point out the other end of the spectrum... and that's drawing out the battles.

There are advantages to fast paced PvP, such as not needing a bunch of friends to be effective solo.

You have to understand that the harder it is to defeat an opponent, the more you promote zerging and large group warfare... and there's a point you can even reach where it's almost required that you have buddies with you just to get kills.

Food for thought... I'm not saying that nerfing as opposed to buffing these things isn't a good approach, but I think the key here is balance so that PvP is fast enough paced that it's fun and engaging and not slow enough that you strip the solo artist of his or her effectiveness.

my 2 cents.

Well they don't need to nerf the dmg they just need to up alot the heals. Thus making them worth, you could die in a few sec but you could heal alot of hp in a few sec also if you time it well.

[Signus]

So, wait, no skill cap is planned whatsoever?

What about everyone picking crafting for their toones, everyone able to make everything for himself? How is this going to be addresed then?

This I am wondering about as well. Kind of removes the reason for having single character servers.

[Mezmorized]

We havent seen Melee Specs too and you can probably bet there is going to be more anti mage in there. If they make the damage increase against mage substantial, I'm sure this will work. I still see everyone respecing to mage for sieges tho.

respecing to mage for sieges? yea that might happen but the diversity and the option to do more damage will be there...lets not forget no more Bowing ppl under water unless you have speciality...meaning boats will now be a bit more useful <-- depending on what they do to them...and just imagine

100 ppl with no specialitys vs 100 with specialitys the diversity that will bring is just awesome...no fight will be the same back to back...no repetative cycling of nukes...and charge...then heal up and repeat...fights will be more tactical.

this sort of system helps you hone in on what your good at and gives you a bonus on top of it but cancells out the ability to use the great magic schools....its a win win no matter how you view it...

[Draxous]

have to agree here specs/roles/builds/caps are all the same thing

I disagree and don't feel like explaining why in great detail... but:

Skill caps lock you into roles... the approach AV is taking to this is that you are not locked into anything, but they're promoting diversity through specialization... which is win.

Thank you and have a great day!

:ninja:

[Kasmos]

I'd like to point out the other end of the spectrum... and that's drawing out the battles.

There are advantages to fast paced PvP, such as not needing a bunch of friends to be effective solo.

You have to understand that the harder it is to defeat an opponent, the more you promote zerging and large group warfare... and there's a point you can even reach where it's almost required that you have buddies with you just to get kills.

Food for thought... I'm not saying that nerfing as opposed to buffing these things isn't a good approach, but I think the key here is balance so that PvP is fast enough paced that it's fun and engaging and not slow enough that you strip the solo artist of his or her effectiveness.

my 2 cents.

That's a good point, but I feel that right now it's on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

My ideal 5v5 would last a good 3-4 minutes at least, with the scales potentially tipping in differing favor of both sides of the battle. It would give time to allow people to change tactics, try to get to cover, call reinforcements, potentially retreat, etc.

Now, if you get ganked or even engage in a 1v1, the battle is usually over as soon as its started. To me, longer battles equal more excitement and the possibility for more sophisticated tactics.

[Draxous]

This I am wondering about as well. Kind of removes the reason for having single character servers.

Why do you say that?

If anything, this approach complements the single character servers more than anything.

[Answer]

Skill caps lock you into roles... the approach AV is taking to this is that you are not locked into anything

Yeah, god forbid we have to play a role in a self-proclaimed roleplaying game.

[ISVRaDa]

Waiting for more info and sincerely, this game need a lot of more content (not only with the pvp).

[Leg enD]

I disagree and don't feel like explaining why in great detail... but:

Skill caps lock you into roles... the approach AV is taking to this is that you are not locked into anything, but they're promoting diversity through specialization... which is win.

Thank you and have a great day!

:ninja:

however you look at it/spin it, specialization = builds (we can switch around whenever we want... yep, but still a build with a role)

that speech on freedom got me at 1st, imo they're just having the cake n eating it too.

[ArcaneWraith]

respecing to mage for sieges? yea that might happen but the diversity and the option to do more damage will be there...lets not forget no more Bowing ppl under water unless you have speciality...meaning boats will now be a bit more useful <-- depending on what they do to them...and just imagine

100 ppl with no specialitys vs 100 with specialitys the diversity that will bring is just awesome...no fight will be the same back to back...no repetative cycling of nukes...and charge...then heal up and repeat...fights will be more tactical.

this sort of system helps you hone in on what your good at and gives you a bonus on top of it but cancells out the ability to use the great magic schools....its a win win no matter how you view it...

Sounds good, although parrying in water is still very op.

[Kasmos]

I disagree and don't feel like explaining why in great detail... but:

Skill caps lock you into roles... the approach AV is taking to this is that you are not locked into anything, but they're promoting diversity through specialization... which is win.

Thank you and have a great day!

:ninja:

Skill caps do not lock you into roles, because you can always change your focus towards something else.

And you say you are not locked into anything? If they allow you to change specialization on the dime, that makes it completely pointless and a clusterfuck.

If you add a timer, that's still pretty pointless unless it's a decent amount of time, and hence, even if for a few hours, days, whatever you're "locked" into a role.

If you add a cost requirement, is the cost going to go up the more you "respec" (funny how that word applies here)? Won't it get to a point where you are "locked" into a role until you get enough money?

There are also a lot of other ways this specialization system could "lock" you in, so again, I fail to see the major difference, unless your only leg to stand on is a "time" difference (i.e. time it takes to shift skill raising priorities vs. time it takes to get required money to respec vs. time it takes for cooldown to go through to change specialization vs. etc etc).

[Kasmos]

Why do you say that?

If anything, this approach complements the single character servers more than anything.

Actually, a skill cap and/or some system of decay would have complimented the single character servers more then anything. Just saying :D

[blob]

melee dmg bonus ??? melee dmg was never problem kiting is the problem in melee.

[Shiva_Firewing]

Why do you say that?

If anything, this approach complements the single character servers more than anything.

...becouse a single character can do everything?

the idea was twofold to create 1-char-per-account/server.

1 - consequence (and we''ve all seen that system fail utterly)
2 - Economy

Basicly meaning player A can not EVERYTHING and needs player B to perform a action. this is stimulating for the economy.

not everyone is a alchemt, but also not everyone is a tailor. the two exchance products or either each others products, or gold to go on and get more of said product.

currently This.Does.Not.Exist.

the only skill with "some" exclusivity is enchanting, and that only becouse it's so fucking expensive...though over time, that to will be "just another skill".

so, yh... lack of any form of skillcap = bad.
hard cut skillcap = bad

mutal exclusivity system = good.

[eMpty900]

A skill cap refers to a maximum number of skill points you can use making it necessary to carefully plan your character’s development. In a skill based game like Darkfall, this would emulate a class system. Players are forced to focus on becoming an archer, a crafter, a mage, a warrior etc. because there are not enough skill points to go around. Darkfall doesn’t have a skill cap and the reason why is one of our most frequently asked questions. We spoke with Claus Grovdal, Darkfall’s lead designer, who answered the community’s question and explained what Darkfall is doing instead.

Claus explained that Darkfall is designed for PvP and that it should be more about the player behind the character than the character itself. Class-based games tend to make you good at PvP through PvE and being good at PvP is all about class, level and gear. It gives players the illusion of diversity when in reality classes are never balanced. There’s always an overpowered flavor of the month class configuration. Adding levels to the equation compounds these imbalances and individual player skill becomes less and less important.

Many Darkfall community members argue that characters with developed skills have a strong advantage over newer characters. Claus pointed out that having an advantage is normal and has nothing to do with the complete domination that we encounter in class/level systems. People tend to forget that a relatively new Darkfall player with some work and individual player skill is very viable and competitive. You definitely can’t have that in a class/level system where even small level differences make it impossible to be competitive. This is why in most games PvP is usually restricted to the higher or even the highest levels: it simply doesn’t work before then.

Another argument against Darkfall’s open model is that competitive players need to work too hard at improving their characters and a skill cap would magically fix this. According to Claus, adding a skill cap would be taking away from the game and forcing players to give up their freedom. He explained that Darkfall’s philosophy is adding options rather than restrictions. Specialization options are already in the game, and many more are on their way. He offered three quick examples from October’s upcoming free expansion:

An option called Jumpshot allows you to jump and fire a bow at a 10 percent penalty on max mana. Aquatic Shot allows you to use a bow under water at a 5 percent penalty on max mana. Finally Mage-Killer will give you bonus damage against users wielding a staff but completely blocks your ability to use elemental, arcane, and necromancy magic. You could select to use all three of these options to get a real edge as an archer vs. magic at a 15 percent max mana penalty plus the magic use penalty. This is a choice you make, you’re not forced to do this, and if you don’t like it you can reverse it easily and get something else that suits your play-style better. There are many high-end specialization options available and more will be added with every update. Claus explained to us that this is the just first step in adding even more diversity to Darkfall.

From what we’ve seen, the changes look very exciting and we’re looking forward to seeing them in action in Darkfall’s upcoming free expansion. We’ll spotlight more features and updates that the new expansion brings in the next days and weeks leading up to it.


This game need a skill cap ONLY in magic skills.

[Manik78]

melee dmg bonus ??? melee dmg was never problem kiting is the problem in melee.

I used to play with a guy who was mostly playing with melee and he never had any problem against archery kiter, he quit the game after they removed it since the fight went really slow.

[Cloud Stryphe]

So the skillcaps and the skill loss you advertised when the game was coming out was just a bunch of crap? Right on...

[blob]

Skilldecay would make people cry but i bet you would rage quit if the implement that . Actually, everyone that grinded their asses to get their elemental would do that.

By the way, increasing the dmg output is not the main concern of this game. Nerfing the dmg would be way more wise. The fights in darkfall got in the state of boriness just because they are way to fast. Fights with magic last what? 10 seconds if there is no obstacle or if the people know how to play.

There is no fun in killing someone in 10 seconds. People should able to get jumped, get to 50% life and if they are good enough they can win that fight. You can argue that peole can do that but, well, you have to be extremely good and smart and not everyone is like that.

The focus is wrong imo. They should nerf magic aoes and their dmg. The idea of making less dmg based on the aoe spot that the magic hit is pretty good. Closer, hard hits and far weak hits. That would DEMAND actual skill from a mage. Today if the person is dedicated and farm to get 4-5 R90 nukes and circle those nukes we all have to agree that he was smart to do that but this takes no skill at all.

Buffing the other sides ( melee and archery) is good but not the major problem. Magic being overpowered due the high damage and the aoe is. If they could just nerf magic while making those changes that would be perfect.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. But i dunno if you guys agree. Fights, at least for me, that lasted 10 minutes or so were way funnier and epic than jumping in a group and kill them in 1 minute or so.


THIS and

They should make mage killer give a bonus based off armor types not weapon.

Its too easy to cast your spell and unequip your staff while waiting on the cool downt hen equip cast unequip.

Mage killer should work off cloth/leather/studded/bone. This will give a further specialization as the melees will go with banded/scale/plate to avoid the extra damage making the classes alittle more defined.

THIS

thank you for puting my thinking on paper in english :)

[Athetmethis]

WHAT about prestige classes?????

[Obidiah-LoD]

This sounds awesome.

[DocMartin]

I'm still a big proponent of voting no to jump-shooting (both magic and archery). Well, I don't dislike the idea of jumping and shooting so much because sometimes you have to chase someone over rocky terrain or up stair-steps while you're holding a spell. But rather I abhor the idea of being able to turn while in the air.

[GRCPan]

Well I guess we will have to wait and see. I wonder though, if the anti mage thingy isn't overpowered but balanced, how many will actually choose to lose all their AOEs and their high end spells to go the archery way? I mean, if it's balanced, it will be balanced for 1on1 combat obviously. So if you have the choice to kick ass in big battles with aoes and be balanced with the ones that don't kick ass in big battles, then why would you choose to go the archery way?
Well we don't know all the changes, so who knows, maybe archery will get some more love for big fights.

Also another thing that might be a flaw of this change is that there won't be diversification between pure archers. Again though we don't know all the changes.

Please give us some info on melee too :sly:
If you could tell us if there are plans to diversify casters between each other too.

[xxxFistxxx]

While this is out of the box thinking i hope it isn't actually a can of worms.

Right now skill balancing is a rather mute issue.
Other games with a class system waste more time balancing shit that has been balanced 100 times and still cannot make anyone happy.
Lets also hope this don't lead to ths scourge of ac2 and flavor of the month builds "defender mages anyone"

fingers crossed and accounts are subbed, you got me till the end lets hope numbers pick up.

[Narcowski]

Also another thing that might be a flaw of this change is that there won't be diversification between pure archers. Again though we don't know all the changes.

Please give us some info on melee too :sly:

Well, we can't (and therefore won't) get everything at once. We are getting a few melee and archery, as well as some other (unknown) stuff; enough to be excited over. I wouldn't think for a minute that it will stop here though; I expect we'll be getting new skills well into the future, and that a decent percentage of those will be related to specialization.

[GRCPan]

Well, we can't (and therefore won't) get everything at once. We are getting a few melee and archery, as well as some other (unknown) stuff; enough to be excited over. I wouldn't think for a minute that it will stop here though; I expect we'll be getting new skills well into the future, and that a decent percentage of those will be related to specialization.

Yeah I certainly hope so. Your idea was good instead of a cap, since it was too late for a cap I guess. So I am glad that they are doing something similar with what your proposed.

[FastEddy]

AV Dude/Dudette: "We dont like classes"

Really Cool Guy (Ely TheRosse): "But you are introducing archery and mage classes..."

[Speedy_999]

why the fuck jumpshoot ???? this is darkfall, not quakefall or unrealfall. :bang:


what you do vs AE magic spamming???


and what can do a MELEE fighter, if all are BUNNY JUMPING???


sry, but if you bring not realy good feature in oktober, DF will die :(

[Speedy_999]

ps: what is with big armor -> plate, infernal, dragon???

atm you can use it for a fashinglook, protection are a joke for this, what they are cost.

[GRCPan]

why the fuck jumpshoot ???? this is darkfall, not quakefall or unrealfall. :bang:


what you do vs AE magic spamming???


and what can do a MELEE fighter, if all are BUNNY JUMPING???


sry, but if you bring not realy good feature in oktober, DF will die :(

Jump shooting has many restrictions from what you can seee.
They didn't list all the changes that are coming, so just wait and see.

[chokke]

So wait.. I can either be a fairly valid magic user, or remove the ability to even use selfbuffs to shoot underwater, and the retarded jumpshoot?
It still doesn't fix the main flaw - the damage compared to playerskill - for archery.

[coder1024]

The mage killer thing will simply mean that people will not keep their staff out. They'll have macros which will switch to staff, cast the desired spell, then switch to any other weapon, prob bow. So mages will only have their staff out when they're casting a spell and otherwise will have it away.
This I am wondering about as well. Kind of removes the reason for having single character servers.
actually, if you have a skill cap and force people into "classes" then there's more of an argument for letting people have multiple characters on a server to allow them to try different things. they've said that a single char is ok because you can mold that char to whatever you want.

[Mezmorized]

Well, we can't (and therefore won't) get everything at once. We are getting a few melee and archery, as well as some other (unknown) stuff; enough to be excited over. I wouldn't think for a minute that it will stop here though; I expect we'll be getting new skills well into the future, and that a decent percentage of those will be related to specialization.

I agree. But AV has to tread carefully on these changes though...or else it would be pointless to be neutral. I dont wanna see EVERYONE and there mothers being a specialization class...I want it to be highlights of what you find yourself good at and lets give you some bonuses but you cant use so and so skills type of system. So far theyre heading in the right direction...looks good on paper we just have to see it ingame...

[Manik78]

why the fuck jumpshoot ???? this is darkfall, not quakefall or unrealfall. :bang:


what you do vs AE magic spamming???


and what can do a MELEE fighter, if all are BUNNY JUMPING???


sry, but if you bring not realy good feature in oktober, DF will die :(

Of course they are making an expansion where they are only brining 3 new skill for archery.

You should stop posting in this thread please. And if you can't do shit against jump archer with only melee that just mean you sux at following a target.

[GRCPan]

So wait.. I can either be a fairly valid magic user, or remove the ability to even use selfbuffs to shoot underwater, and the retarded jumpshoot?
It still doesn't fix the main flaw - the damage compared to playerskill - for archery.

You missed the extra damage part on people that use staves? Also you lose the ability of high end magic for that part only, not jump shooting and underwater shooting.

[Speedy_999]

This is bad dude, jumpspin for archer back? No skill cap? No global cooldown for magic?
Sorry but you broke my last hope and sorry to say prolly i don't resub.
Can't accept the fact people can cycle 4 aoes of 4 different schools plus all debuff/buff like reflection, witches brew and so on.
This make who grind and spend more time in game always win. This nerdrage spamfest of magic without any player skill at all make me very sad. The first days of DF will always be the best, now is a shit.

In the end you Av lie about the skill cap you promise and promote in the faqs, i think is too late and you can't manage to balance the game anymore.

Skill cap was the only promise feature keep me playing till now but now i know it will never happen, thanks for the truth aniway but i prolly leave with my entire guild after this new. Grind every skill in the game and long char development is bad for a pvp game u claim to be, even shit games like aion understand this and put a cap to 50 where in the end only the player ability matter and not how many skills and magic schools u level up to 100.

Very sad Aventurine but thanks to try make a game different, i really enjoy it for a lot of time.

/absoluty agree

[Fugean]

/absoluty agree

Bye, to both of you.

[Speedy_999]

Jump shooting has many restrictions from what you can seee.
They didn't list all the changes that are coming, so just wait and see.

sry, the biggest problem ATM is this overpowerd AE magic spamming + high damage.

and i read NOTHING what AV to do again this.

why are the server so emty?

[Keno]

/absoluty agree

Your an idiot. How Bout we wait and see what the expansion delivers first than you can make your, "omg jump shoot archery is back Im not good enuff to do it qq thread." seriously we don't even know about the melée or any other magic or archery changes. Relax dude. Your crying about the aoe spam, and yes I agree it's stupid and requires no skill, but how do you know nothing will be done? What they announced was just a small example of some of the new archery abilities, give it time.

[GRCPan]

sry, the biggest problem ATM is this overpowerd AE magic spamming + high damage.

and i read NOTHING what AV to do again this.

why are the server so emty?

Because they listed all the changes that come with the expansion right?

[Keno]

Because they listed all the changes that come with the expansion right?

Lol exactly, he acts like the expansion consists of those 3 new abilities and that's it. :)

[Meldor]

Still doesnt make sense to use archery under water. Water elemental magic should be the only spells available to use underwater.

In reality shooting with a gun in water the bullet loose all his velocity after 3 foot.

My 2 cents

[Allort]

Im a magic user and want to be a pure magic user tbh, in a fight situation, ill always have a bow and hammer handy etc but magic is my core. BUT i dont want to spam AoE spells from all the different schools, i still think that needs to be addressed and ill be looking for the following in the expansion:

1) when are you going to let water mages cast underwater??!

2) your going to have to make magic specialisation (in a perticular school etc) viable and effective with bonuses because if not, now the only magic users who will be able to compete against archery will be those with 4 lvl 100 AoEs to spam

people forget that its a small majority of people with maxed out macrod magic schools giving the rest of us who maybe worked hard for 100 in one school, a bad name and now getting magic gimped for the rest of us! :p


(all speculation, lets see in the expansion)

[Keno]

Still doesnt make sense to use archery under water. Water elemental magic should be the only spells available to use underwater.

In reality shooting with a gun in water the bullet loose all his velocity after 3 foot.

My 2 cents


Agree 100% It would only make sense to let water magic users use their spells under water. As far as using archery under water, if they made elemental arrows, I'd like to see regular arrows not be able to shoot under water, but water elemental arrows would be able to. Also, fix Blizzard for fuck sake.

[Speedy_999]

Because they listed all the changes that come with the expansion right?

man, i like darkfall, but i will a INFO from AV what they do in this part AE magic, magic spamming, magic damage.

this is at the moment a critical problem. this is why people leave the game.

i swear if yv make not changes there -> the server will be more and more empty. wow, is this what you like?

[Realbigdeal22]

If there will be no cap, i still hope that offensive magic will be use more often with a robe. If you wear other stuff then a robe and cast an offensive spell, you should lose a lot of mana and the cast time should take longer just to encourage enfensive magic to be use with robe.

[GRCPan]

Still doesnt make sense to use archery under water. Water elemental magic should be the only spells available to use underwater.

In reality shooting with a gun in water the bullet loose all his velocity after 3 foot.

My 2 cents

Well you can't cast magic IRL either, so it doesn't really matter if it is realistic or not. If you couldn't use archery underwater, water would pretty much be a safe zone.
I agree though, water magic should be able to be cast underwater.

[Keno]

man, i like darkfall, but i will a INFO from AV what they do in this part AE magic, magic spamming, magic damage.

this is at the moment a critical problem. this is why people leave the game.

i swear if yv make not changes there -> the server will be more and more empty. wow, is this what you like?


They have not addressed the magic issue yet and the non stop spams from all the rank 90+ nukes. All they did was give us 3 examples of new abilities for archery. I agree I would like the info also about the magic aoe spam, but you need to be somewhat patient bro. So far most of the changes that AV have made are leading this game to the right direction.

[coder1024]

If there will be no cap, i still hope that offensive magic will be use more often with a robe. If you wear other stuff then a robe and cast an offensive spell, you should lose a lot of mana and the cast time should take longer just to encourage enfensive magic to be use with robe.
you just write a macro which switches to the robe for casting and with another key press switches back to full armor :D such a restriction wouldn't have any effect.

[Kasmos]

actually, if you have a skill cap and force people into "classes" then there's more of an argument for letting people have multiple characters on a server to allow them to try different things. they've said that a single char is ok because you can mold that char to whatever you want.

Why does everyone think a skill cap wouldn't let you re-mold whatever you want as well? There are ways to implement skill caps that allow full ability of people to completely change what they're skilled in-game in.

[Asker]

i im one that strongly supports the skill cap but i believe the above said changes will be sufficient on balancing the game although there need to be much more specializations for this to be complete cause whatever you do to archers there will always be someone with all 100 magics that even if he stands still he will just have to press 1-2-3-4-5 klicks to use all his magics with huge aow that you cant avoid no matter what and make it a matter of dps not skill(yes like wow).

The idea would be good if there was more magic specialization that obstructed you from doing that without nerfing magic schools that will individually be balanced with archery (something like what there was at the beginning that you couldn't use fire and water together)

But i like the plan and ill wait to see it implemented before i support any idea about skillcap again.

[Manik78]

One easy fix : Greatly increase the mana cost of every r75+ spells ( so all fields aoe & big nukes)

But well, wait & see =)

[GRCPan]

Why does everyone think a skill cap wouldn't let you re-mold whatever you want as well? There are ways to implement skill caps that allow full ability of people to completely change what they're skilled in-game in.

Well yeah I agree with you, skill cap wouldn't create classes. It would create classes as much as the system they are implementing actually.

[Robin392]

I like this, but I'd still like to see some sort of penalty between magic schools. For instance, if you use fire magic, your water magic schools will have a reduced effectiveness for a certain duration. Perhaps even localization on the spells effectiveness; ie water spells have reduced effectivness in volcanic areas while fire magic is enhanced.

I agree that a skill cap is a bad idea, but there should be penalties for being a "do anything" character. It wouldn't take away from the characters (at least I feel they wouldn't) but would add a small amount of strategy to play.

It should not be about limiting characters, but penalizations should be taken into consideration.

That said, this archery stuff sounds pretty good. I'd still like to see specialty shots (burden shots, armour-piercing shots, seige arrows, etc) but this is a definite step in the right direction.

[Tren]

Skill caps do not lock you into roles, because you can always change your focus towards something else.

And you say you are not locked into anything? If they allow you to change specialization on the dime, that makes it completely pointless and a clusterfuck.

If you add a timer, that's still pretty pointless unless it's a decent amount of time, and hence, even if for a few hours, days, whatever you're "locked" into a role.

If you add a cost requirement, is the cost going to go up the more you "respec" (funny how that word applies here)? Won't it get to a point where you are "locked" into a role until you get enough money?

There are also a lot of other ways this specialization system could "lock" you in, so again, I fail to see the major difference, unless your only leg to stand on is a "time" difference (i.e. time it takes to shift skill raising priorities vs. time it takes to get required money to respec vs. time it takes for cooldown to go through to change specialization vs. etc etc).


Well its good to see that atleast there is someone else that looks at this in the same way I do.

[Kasmos]

Well yeah I agree with you, skill cap wouldn't create classes. It would create classes as much as the system they are implementing actually.

EXACTLY, which is why I'm waiting for an anti-skill cap supporter to explain to me the difference.... There will most certainly be "flavor of the month"s and classes with this system basing that statement off of how they just described it.

[Karac]

By the way, increasing the dmg output is not the main concern of this game. Nerfing the dmg would be way more wise. The fights in darkfall got in the state of boriness just because they are way to fast. Fights with magic last what? 10 seconds if there is no obstacle or if the people know how to play.

There is no fun in killing someone in 10 seconds. People should able to get jumped, get to 50% life and if they are good enough they can win that fight. You can argue that peole can do that but, well, you have to be extremely good and smart and not everyone is like that.

The focus is wrong imo. They should nerf magic aoes and their dmg. The idea of making less dmg based on the aoe spot that the magic hit is pretty good. Closer, hard hits and far weak hits. That would DEMAND actual skill from a mage. Today if the person is dedicated and farm to get 4-5 R90 nukes and circle those nukes we all have to agree that he was smart to do that but this takes no skill at all.

Buffing the other sides ( melee and archery) is good but not the major problem. Magic being overpowered due the high damage and the aoe is. If they could just nerf magic while making those changes that would be perfect.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. But i dunno if you guys agree. Fights, at least for me, that lasted 10 minutes or so were way funnier and epic than jumping in a group and kill them in 1 minute or so.
That.

[Draxous]

Why does everyone think a skill cap wouldn't let you re-mold whatever you want as well? There are ways to implement skill caps that allow full ability of people to completely change what they're skilled in-game in.

Because I'd have to sacrifice EVERYTHING I had worked hard for, just to "remold" my toon... which is stupid.

And the approach they are taking is not as radical as you and the rest of those in this thread bitching about skill caps are trying to make it out to be. This is incentives for specializing, not forcing full blown specialization down peoples throats.

[Manik78]

EXACTLY, which is why I'm waiting for an anti-skill cap supporter to explain to me the difference.... There will most certainly be "flavor of the month"s and classes with this system basing that statement off of how they just described it.

You can't put a skill cap when everyone has high skills, the only way would be to reset everyones combat skills to 0 but then increase by alot the skill gains because many people would be pissed to have to farm again to up their skills

[Hadon]

global cooldown on all aoe's or game is gonna continue its death spiral.

end of discussion.

[Laz]

So implementing abilties that you have to choose between (specializations) is the solution to avoid implementing abilties you have to choose between (existing skills)?

Logic fail?

/facepalm

Armor for skill diversification please.

Or at the very least an active skill cap that can be changed daily. Just when I start having faith in AV again do they add things like 'aquatic shot' and return a previous mechanic like 'jump shot'. Mage killer is an interesting addition though.

Not to mention, the problem of spamming rank 100 AoEs still exists and was apparently completely ignored by devs.

[Darkbone]

EXACTLY, which is why I'm waiting for an anti-skill cap supporter to explain to me the difference....

Well then, the difference is very simple:
With a skill cap you would force people to choose a specialization.
With the system they are aiming at now there is no one forcing you to choose archery over magic or vice versa. You could continue playing as you do now, with all skills and spells at 100 and using whatever you want whenever you want.

Thats the difference, and for me and a good bunch of other people thats all the difference that matters.

[Kasmos]

Well then, the difference is very simple:
With a skill cap you would force people to choose a specialization.
With the system they are aiming at now there is no one forcing you to choose archery over magic or vice versa. You could continue playing as you do now, with all skills and spells at 100 and using whatever you want whenever you want.

Thats the difference, and for me and a good bunch of other people thats all the difference that matters.

Well, if you decide to not "specialize" in anything, aren't you going to be at some sort of a disadvantage to those that do?

Or, since this specialization is coming in and we KNOW won't be 100% balanced, isn't this just going to create flavors the month? The same thing people bitched that skill caps would create?

Again, skill caps can be implemented in such a way that changing "specialties" does not take a shit ton of money and/or time. For all we know, it's going to be just as hard (maybe monetarily instead of involving time) as switching what you focused on if the game had skill caps would be.

[Draxous]

So implementing abilties that you have to choose between (specialization) is the solution to avoid implementing abilties you have to choose between (existing skills)?

Logic fail?

/facepalm

Armor for skill diversification please.

Who said you had to choose any of those abilities? Rather, in being proficient (but not as much so) in both roles?

Rebuttle fail?

And armor for more skill diversification please - yes!


The more options the better. A skill cap is taking options completely off the table... which is the epic fail people keep skipping over when trying to promote skill caps. This approach, leaves all options open and pushes for the desired diversity so many claim. :ohno:

/facepalm

:)

[Draxous]

Well, if you decide to not "specialize" in anything, aren't you going to be at some sort of a disadvantage to those that do?


No.

If you specialize, you may have an advantage in one regard, but you have a disadvantage in another regard... that the person who did not specialize does not have.

Aka... balance.

[Kasmos]

Because I'd have to sacrifice EVERYTHING I had worked hard for, just to "remold" my toon... which is stupid.

What is EVERYTHING? Time? Money? If they implemented a system where your skills could only drop to 65-70 if you raised a certain amount of other skills PAST 75, I don't see how it would be ridiculous or how you'd have to "sacrifice EVERYTHING I had worked hard for" to spend "x" amount of time to switch focuses (i.e. from archery skills to melee).

Again, for all we know it could take time AND money to "switch" specializations.

[Kasmos]

No.

If you specialize, you may have an advantage in one regard, but you have a disadvantage in another regard... that the person who did not specialize does not have.

Aka... balance.

If you honestly believe a system like what they're proposing is not going to create major unbalance and flavors of the month, you're in for one hell of a wide awakening.

[ninogan]

Magekiller sounds sweet \o/ Not that I needed it anyways :ninja:

[Draxous]

If you honestly believe a system like what they're proposing is not going to create major unbalance and flavors of the month, you're in for one hell of a wide awakening.

No one said that the system is currently perfect, but rather: what we're saying is that it's headed in the right direction as AV works on perfecting it.

But honestly... That's your argument?

Well here's mine.... read the 1st post of this thread about skill caps in darkfall.

Thanks.

/thread

[GRCPan]

Because I'd have to sacrifice EVERYTHING I had worked hard for, just to "remold" my toon... which is stupid.

And the approach they are taking is not as radical as you and the rest of those in this thread bitching about skill caps are trying to make it out to be. This is incentives for specializing, not forcing full blown specialization down peoples throats.

No you wouldn't. It could just work with templates and if your skills exceed the limits of your template they could just stay at the level they are but instead work at the level that they are set at the template.

[Draxous]

Because I'd have to sacrifice EVERYTHING I had worked hard for, just to "remold" my toon... which is stupid. What is EVERYTHING? Time? Money? If they implemented a system where your skills could only drop to 65-70 if you raised a certain amount of other skills PAST 75, I don't see how it would be ridiculous or how you'd have to "sacrifice EVERYTHING I had worked hard for" to spend "x" amount of time to switch focuses (i.e. from archery skills to melee).

Again, for all we know it could take time AND money to "switch" specializations.

Cut pieces out of my post and try and take them off the deep end some more please. In otherwords... read the bold... then once you've digested it, read the underlined.


And the approach they are taking is not as radical as you and the rest of those in this thread bitching about skill caps are trying to make it out to be. This is incentives for specializing, not forcing full blown specialization down peoples throats.

Thanks.

[Draxous]

No you wouldn't. It could just work with templates and if your skills exceed the limits of your template they could just stay at the level they are but instead work at the level that they are set at the template.

Of course it could work that way... almost every other MMO out there works that way. Doesn't mean that-that's the way it should work in Darkfall because this isn't a game about your "template" or "build" this is about player skill, and like I said in the 2nd part of that quote... (let me refresh your memory)

And the approach they are taking is not as radical as you and the rest of those in this thread bitching about skill caps are trying to make it out to be.

This is incentives for specializing, not forcing full blown specialization down peoples throats.

[GRCPan]

Of course it could work that way... almost every other MMO out there works that way. Doesn't mean that-that's the way it should work in Darkfall because this isn't a game about your "template" or "build" this is about player skill, and like I said in the 2nd part of that quote... (let me refresh your memory)

Well, in the end the most overpowered thing will prevail. Either some kind of specialization or no specialization.
Though again if you think about it. The no specialization choice is like a built with a bit of everything but not the extra things. It's just more wide than it would be with a skill cap.

[Draxous]

Well, in the end the most overpowered thing will prevail. Either some kind of specialization or no specialization.

It is my belief... that once this system is polished, the better player will prevail (that "overpowered thing" you speak of.)

:)

[GRCPan]

It is my belief... that once this system is polished, the better player will prevail (that "overpowered thing" you speak of.)

:)

Well many games are being polished for balance for many years and they are still imbalanced. The good thing about darkfall is that it doesn't have many different builds, so it shouldn't be that hard to balance it.

[Shiva_Firewing]

It is my belief... that once this system is polished, the better player will prevail (that "overpowered thing" you speak of.)

:)

balance will never be achived, that is the one true thing we have learned from Starcraft to Age of conan.

ie: te most overpowered will be the FOTM, the difference is that in most games you need to relevel a toon - in darkfall you just gind up yet another skill.

[GRCPan]

This new system to promote diversity reminds me of prestige classes btw.

[Fugean]

balance will never be achived, that is the one true thing we have learned from Starcraft to Age of conan.

ie: te most overpowered will be the FOTM, the difference is that in most games you need to relevel a toon - in darkfall you just gind up yet another skill.

imo starcraft was fairly balanced, nothing i can think of was too OP.

[Ragnar]

with mage-killer you will loose the buffs and be helpless again against a shielduser.
Nerf Multischoool magic
like 1-2 schools at 100
1 at 75
and maybe give dmgspells a penalty when wearing any armor.

[gazarsgo]

balance will never be achived, that is the one true thing we have learned from Starcraft to Age of conan.

ie: te most overpowered will be the FOTM, the difference is that in most games you need to relevel a toon - in darkfall you just gind up yet another skill.

what part of starcraft isn't balanced? starcraft success is mostly a function of APM+tactics these days...

[Draxous]

It is my belief... that once this system is polished, the better player will prevail (that "overpowered thing" you speak of.)

:)

balance will never be achived, that is the one true thing we have learned from Starcraft to Age of conan.

ie: te most overpowered will be the FOTM, the difference is that in most games you need to relevel a toon - in darkfall you just gind up yet another skill.

Combat in this game is more like EvE than it is AoC... which is why I'm confident that you are completely wrong.

Balance is very achievable in this system. The Devs are showing us and saying to us that they want this as much as we do... and I believe them.

Especially since they are not trying to re-invent the wheel by going the cookie cutter skill cap route, but rather are attempting innovative combat in an MMO.

Guys, you have to realize that this game/company is a PIONEER in the gaming industry. It is scary, it is exciting, you're going to question the unfamiliar left and right... but trust that only the greatest things come from doing this... the greats don't "follow the leaders" they are the leader.

That is all I'm going to say on this subject.

Happy day for me!

[Lumanil]

its kool what they are doing but, i still dont believe that 15% penalty loss total to max mana isn't enough when taking all three. i would jump it to 30% per upgrade than you would create some diversity. instead of everyone being everything as the game is today.

Did you read it wrong ???
If you are taking all three specialisations you will loose 15% max mana AND will loose the ability to cast spells of arcane/necro/elemental schools !!!!

[GRCPan]

This game is more like EvE than it is AoC... which is why I'm confident that you are completely wrong.

Balance is very achievable in this system. The Devs are showing us and saying to us that they want this as much as we do... and I believe them.

Especially since they are not trying to re-invent the wheel by going the cookie cutter skill cap route, but rather are attempting innovative combat in an MMO.

Guys, you have to realize that this game/company is a PIONEER in the gaming industry. It is scary, it is exciting, you're going to question the unfamiliar left and right... but trust that only the greatest things come from doing this... the greats don't "follow the leaders" they are the leader.

That is all I'm going to say on this subject.

Happy day for me!

The only thing left to find out though is where the leader is leading.
But to see that we will have to wait a few years.

[Athetmethis]

/absoluty agree

/agreedddd

[Speedy_999]

hello AV

- magic jumpshot
- archery jumpshot

welcome to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eni0LHAS464

for the alchi crafter you can create a new recept, yeah

[Manik78]

Starcraft isn't an mmo what are you guys talking about ? =/

[Draxous]

Starcraft isn't an mmo what are you guys talking about ? =/

I was waiting for someone to pick up on that... lol!

[Laz]

Who said you had to choose any of those abilities? Rather, in being proficient (but not as much so) in both roles?

Rebuttle fail?

And armor for more skill diversification please - yes!


The more options the better. A skill cap is taking options completely off the table... which is the epic fail people keep skipping over when trying to promote skill caps. This approach, leaves all options open and pushes for the desired diversity so many claim. :ohno:

/facepalm

:)

Skill caps or the ensuing substitutes can easily be implemented in a way that allow jack of all trades, master of none characters with some creativity. The whole point of 'specialization' or speccing in gamer terminology, is to become highly proficient at one thing and give up another.

If there is no real trade off then there is no real specialization. The mage killer item is a good example of true specialization, but it does not address the massive problem of someone spitting out chain rank 100 nukes that are require no aiming whatsoever and hit for ridiculous amounts of damage. Not to mention, it's boring when that's all you do.

At the moment the only balance mechanism is how many regs you pour into x schools. The fact that they reduced the grind is freaking awesome and a step in the right direction, but without true and multi-faceted specialization-- the degree of homogeneity in this game will drive many players away.

[thedrumchannell]

I am so glad that AV is using this system instead of restricting our gameplay options with skill caps. Now we can still be an archer, mage or melee specialist as we choose. On the same token, we are encouraged to be stronger in one area via specific customizations.

So:

I can be strong in archery, while also having the options to use magic when I feel it's appropriate.

Freedom, Balance and Specialization! :)

[Dembar]

this sounds good. but what about crafters/gatheres

what about armour. so mages wil use bone and archers will use full plate.

[GRCPan]

I am so glad that AV is using this system instead of restricting our gameplay options with skill caps. Now we can still be an archer, mage or melee specialist as we choose. On the same token, we are encouraged to be stronger in one area via specific customizations.

So:

I can be strong in archery, while also having the options to use magic when I feel it's appropriate.

Freedom, Balance and Specialization! :)

Well you won't be able to use high end magic if you want to be good at archery. Basically the same result a skill cap would have.

About balance, well we don't know about that.

[Azraine]

this specialization system will be awesome and negate any need for a skill cap if it is done correctly. Im just hoping that the melee love enables us to not be kited so easily by mages and now the jump shooting archers lol. Or melee will just be the ultimate fail.

[civer]

mage-killer is more restricting than a skill cap system. a cap system would allow players to choose the penalties while this just gives you a static template. theyr implementing a class system with a different name nothing more

this just shows (again) that av have no sense of direction

[GRCPan]

mage-killer is more restricting than a skill cap system. a cap system would allow players to choose the penalties while this just gives you a static template. theyr implementing a class system with a different name nothing more

this just shows (again) that av have no sense of direction

Well you have a point.

[Shiva_Firewing]

Starcraft isn't an mmo what are you guys talking about ? =/

i used it as an example of a older but popular game, that to THIS DAY recieves balance patches.


that said - Currently the mechanics implenented need 2 alterations:

1 - Balance between magic, Melee and Archery so that any 1 can reasonably work against any other. and visa versa that a player that focusses on magic can defeat someone using Melee, but that the Melee dude stands a equal chance.

(i'ma go and say melee/archer and Mage/Melee for ease)

so, someone who uses magic,melee and archery will be forced into Weak armour (bone, leather and the like) i belive casting in any form of metal armour should be completly impossible. it should also completly stop any form of mana regeneration.
-PS: introduce a spell - Inner Focus: like unburned, same time, allows casting with metal armour on for buffs and stuff for those who want to cast a spell or two, or something not o completly kill it of

those who focus on melee/archery need a form of aoe, be this a exploding arrow, a stampede-earthquake point blank shot, something that mirror the effect or a aoe spell.

melee/archery needs a alternative form of healing that is NOT linked with magic. (Bandages, fist aid kits, holy anal plugs.. i give nto a flying fart. something that is not a spell)
ps: first idiot that says pots gets to test ONLY using pots in combat. right.



so. what do we need for a balanced play between Melee/archery and Melee/Magic and Melee/archery/Magic

- all 3 should be able to output the same ammount of damage, over the same ammount of time.
- all 3 should have viable ways of Healing the player
- all forms should have a viable way, or alternative to buffs (enchanting for example)

now, i agree - MAgic is the AoE pew pew fest. sure. make spells DRAIN mana if you cast 'm like a madman, make aoe's cost 5x the mana they do now, make it COUNT if you cast a fireball or a Inferno. damage is fine. magic SHOULD be the powerhouse of all things goign boom... it should not do this NON STOP.
if i cast fireball >inferno > magma bolt and cast health to mana > stamina to health > mana so stamina i will be 100% again!


on, there needs a way to be to heal yerself. bandages, some first aid skill linked with a melee specialisation (Field Medic - Heal yourself for 5 ticks of 6 health (witches brew), using it specialisation limits the use of spells by making it impossible to cast for the duration of 1 minute after using it.

...or whatever.


----

currently it's a halfassed attempt at bringen in diversity WHICH DOESN'T exist.

[thedrumchannell]

mage-killer is more restricting than a skill cap system. a cap system would allow players to choose the penalties while this just gives you a static template. theyr implementing a class system with a different name nothing more

this just shows (again) that av have no sense of direction

Well this "class" system is going to allow us the freedom to use magic, archery, melee, crafting together with a single character instead of restricting us to a single play style.

Our characters will be just a tad more tailored in one aspect to encourage balance and specialization.

[Kasmos]

It is my belief... that once this system is polished, the better player will prevail (that "overpowered thing" you speak of.)

:)

I would agree with you, if I ever thought the system would be completely polished and completely balanced. Yes, Darkfall allows player skill to play a MUCH higher role then other MMOs, but there will ALWAYS be flavors of the month in Darkfall, unless Aventurine magically creates a perfectly balanced game, making them the BEST developer EVER of ALL TIME.

Have you forgotten how this game has progressed since launch? Think of how many skills/spells/etc etc were way to overpowered (or still are, just look at AOEs), and other skills that were completely ineffective. Add in "specializations" and you create the potential for even MORE unbalance.

Look at WoW years after launch. That game is STILL not balanced, and they have to deal with overpowered builds all the time.

Point is, there will always be a "magic" combination of specializations that gives more of an edge then others, and there will always be a spell or skill that is, even if only slightly, unbalanced. This new "system" isn't going to stop that...

....but dream on cowboy.

[Shiva_Firewing]

Well this "class" system is going to allow us the freedom to use magic, archery, melee, crafting together with a single character instead of restricting us to a single play style.

Our characters will be just a tad more tailored in one aspect to encourage balance and specialization.

a tad more?

a complete removal of elemental, necro and arcane... let me sum this up for ye.

- No buffs
- No Nukes
- No AoE
- No bolts
- No Utility (haste, waterbreathing, etc...)

and this for exchance into... more damage if someone wields a staff.
so anyone wielding a staff gets more damage from you, but you sacrifice 90% of the spells in the game that are worth casting (Witches brew, sacrifice and LM spells excluded)

the issue is... there is NOTHING stopping the other dude from buffing up, healing up, changing to a bow and completly ripping you apart with +arrow resist, +damage resist, + quickness + dex +... need i go on?

This. Single "Perk" is a complete and total failure on ALL levels.


the other only slighly less so 2 perks for a total of 15% mana less. thats ~300 mana so i lose 45 mana. yay.

full buffing, cycling though my aoe's(2), my nukes(4)my bolt(2) and witches bew and hael self get me to 40% mana.... wel, gee, 15% is really going to hurt. i might actually use a potion now. :S

[Cloud Stryphe]

Because I'd have to sacrifice EVERYTHING I had worked hard for, just to "remold" my toon... which is stupid.

And the approach they are taking is not as radical as you and the rest of those in this thread bitching about skill caps are trying to make it out to be. This is incentives for specializing, not forcing full blown specialization down peoples throats.

Oh, so its "stupid" for them to implement something that was supposed to be implemented anyways. Ye.... that sounds so stupid.

[Darkbone]

Point is, there will always be a "magic" combination of specializations that gives more of an edge then others, and there will always be a spell or skill that is, even if only slightly, unbalanced. This new "system" isn't going to stop that...

Neither is a hardcap. Your argument being?

[smaweet]

step 1) nerf ALL magic damage

step 2) add customizations for magic: ie:
+50% fire magic damage -- reduce 50% water magic damage
+50% arcane magic damage -- reduce 50% necromancy damage
etc.

step 3) add global cooldowns to spells ie:
heal self, witches brew, sacrifice all on similar cooldown
all large AOE spells within elemental magic on same cooldown
all 'big damage' elemental nukes on same 2-sec cooldown (not including arcane/necro)
all large AOE spells within basic magics on same cooldown

step 4) buff Lesser Magic and Greater Magic spells to be comparable. ie:
Shrapnel becomes a spell very similar to magma storm. LM/GM restricted mages (due to bow skills) have one large aoe cast. Elemental mages have 2 on separate cooldowns.
telekinesis becomes a long-range spell similar to wall-of-force that traps people in the hover a little bit
eldritch sphere aoe increased

step 5) add jumpspin and huge damage bonus to archers at the cost of mana and ability to cast elementals/necro/arcane

step 6) add +melee damage and +defenses at the cost of LM/GM/SC/WC only and no archer buffs.

step 7) add melee damage cleaves, archery cleaves, and slowing spells (that work on mounts as well) to greatly reduce the amount of chasing required to kill a target

[gazarsgo]

1 - Balance between magic, Melee and Archery so that any 1 can reasonably work against any other.

this is basically the dumbest thing ever. That's not balance it's homogeneity

balance is magic beats melee beats archery beats magic.

easiest fix is to give infernal ridiculous magic resists and dragon ridiculous archery resists. revamp encumberance so dragon gives you enough encumberance to give a penalty to archery while infernal only gives you enough encumberance to give a penalty to magic.

i think the majority of hte confusion stems from initially it looking like magic was going to be balanced against itself with the opposing schools; air would boost archery, but then you'd miss out on the dps school earth, water would boost...mobility? but you'd miss out on the dps school fire.

hopefully they'll be able to revisit that kind of balance once they get their core mechanics nailed down better...

[DeManiac]

So, wait, no skill cap is planned whatsoever?

What about everyone picking crafting for their toones, everyone able to make everything for himself? How is this going to be addresed then?


More specializations coming up he says, they focus on the obviously most asked questions atm, that would be combat balance.
Since allot of people feel forced to level magic in order to compete in fights.

Now specializations I guess they will implement would include the Organizations you read about in the lore, Race / Race Alliance restricted Specializations that give you bonus / negatives.
A Dwarf with their "Five Beards Trading Company" would maybe be able to do more efficient trading or so, but give up his ability so shoot cannons? :P
But the money spent on hiring Caravans is reduced by 20%.
But if I would take a guess, I think they will add these later on, think the Implant system in Eve, you cannot have everything, but you can take a pick.
Or you could have everyone, but they don't work together.
For example, if you have Mage-Killer, and you have Necromancy, those two don't work out, if you have Crafting Specialist you cannot have Weapon Mastery.
Or your Dexterity is lowered by 30%.
I believe by this, they don't lack ideas, they just haven't figured out how to implement balanced ideas that don't interfere with eachother.



About Mage-Killer specialization.
IF you for example do 50% more damage with arrows against a target wielding a staff, that would be 150% the current Arrow damage, usually 32-55 damage depending on skill and bow rank.
Would then instead be 48-83.
That's were allot of spells have their damage range atm, thus I believe it's balanced, the trajectory will have it's benefits and downs, but you would be able to shoot say, 1 or 2 arrows at the same speed you shoot one firebolt.
For only 12% the cost.
So your limiting yourself to not use say, witches brew, which is one of the most effective healing spells up to date, but instead you save loads of money, and your attack rate is the same, your damage output if you aim right would be higher then a mage aswel, the mage would have to switch to melee, and there you would be even, until the mage switch back to staff, if you then reach the caster in melee, and he tries to witches brew, use your melee weapon at his back.

Power-attack doing 50% more damage jummy, would be something around 90 dmg.


My conclusion, if the damage increase is around 50% for this "sacrifice" then you would have a real advantage, you wouldn't be able to go into a "AoE" storm, but you would still be able to force the mage to heal himself instead, and when doing so, you're also able to damage him more, thus nullifying the healing he did.

Next to come is ways to avoid Encumbrance penalty for lesser magic by sacrificing greater magic.



Edit :
Just read the first post again, and guess what? he never says Witchcraft or Spell Chanting, do people know what that means?
I guess not, if that's not edited there it means that you can still use Witches Brew, Needles, Spellchanting Buffs to Stamina, Mana and Health, and also use the "Hymns" or whatever they are named, to buff others with strength and other buffs.
Those buffs are stronger, so for group fights your still able to get the same buffs you would still use in those occasions, thus if a group of 2+ people move around, they can buff, quickness and strength ( think it's vitality aswell ) to the other(s) and thus provide better buffs then the elemental ones, you won't be able to buff for example haste, or archery haste or water breathing etc, you won't either be able to buff protections towards magic.
But, you're able to get some of the strongest buffs in game, and the rest, the resistance of the Full Plate Set you're going to wear will make up for.

[Draxous]

Skill caps or the ensuing substitutes can easily be implemented in a way that allow jack of all trades, master of none characters with some creativity. The whole point of 'specialization' or speccing in gamer terminology, is to become highly proficient at one thing and give up another.

If there is no real trade off then there is no real specialization. The mage killer item is a good example of true specialization, but it does not address the massive problem of someone spitting out chain rank 100 nukes that are require no aiming whatsoever and hit for ridiculous amounts of damage. Not to mention, it's boring when that's all you do.

At the moment the only balance mechanism is how many regs you pour into x schools. The fact that they reduced the grind is freaking awesome and a step in the right direction, but without true and multi-faceted specialization-- the degree of homogeneity in this game will drive many players away.


Can you cast spells while mounted?

Can you melee a person if you aren't with-in range?

Can you cast spells if you don't have the regs? (ignoring the MM and HS)


I suggested mounted archery (with a reduction to the damage it deals and perhaps even an increase in the figurine weight) as another example of how this game can promote specialization since you'd be unable to heal the mount or yourself while riding it. Add in chariots and a whole new element to PvP is born.

You are right in that "The whole point of 'specialization' or speccing in gamer terminology, is to become highly proficient at one thing and give up another."

But you are wrong with your assessment of skill caps. How many games have skill caps? And out of those games, how many of them have balanced PvP? (Hint: Damn near all and None of them.)

You talk of creativity, but ignore the fact that you suggest reinventing the same ole rather than pioneering something new. I'm sorry, but I'd rather be a more creative by pioneering something new.

[Kasmos]

Neither is a hardcap. Your argument being?

I wasn't advocating a hard cap, only one towards crafting skills since they obviously AREN'T adding in a skill cap.

I have always advocated a soft cap with skill decay system that allowed you to level up skills very quickly so changing "specializations" would not be too much of a grind of hassle.

Aventurine's stated system is going to create all the same potential problems people see with skill caps and/or decay systems. Just wait and see...

[Fugean]

I find it funny that half of the posts in this thread belong in the suggestion section of the forums.

[Draxous]

I wasn't advocating a hard cap, only one towards crafting skills since they obviously AREN'T adding in a skill cap.

I have always advocated a soft cap with skill decay system that allowed you to level up skills very quickly so changing "specializations" would not be too much of a grind of hassle.

Aventurine's stated system is going to create all the same potential problems people see with skill caps and/or decay systems. Just wait and see...

*cough*

I disagree completely. What is the point of being solely a crafter? What is the point of the caravan system? What is the point of player owned shops selling crafted items and gear?

If everyone can max out all crafting skills, crafted items become obsolete and worthless.

I'd be happy with this diversification system they are adding to melee and archery and magic (if they do it right that is), but I honestly feel if they don't want a skill decay system put in place which they stated they don't, they NEED to have a hard cap on all crafting skills. Make it so that you have enough points to be either low in all crafting skills or high in a few.

What is the point?

Playing the game how you specifically want to is the point.

You are at no disadvantage and actually... players who devote their entire playtime to craft are actually at an advantage... because that is the focus of their attention. Just because others are free to craft stuff too, doesn't mean they will nor does it take away from the crafters who want to focus on that stuff.

And this doesn't negatively effect the economy. Ultima Online's Siege Perilous shard has demonstrated that rock solidly.

...

[Larocco]

i doubt devs pvp a lot in this game so they just listen to players. the problem is players who post suggestions dont have enough pvp knowledge or dont see the big picture so u get more and more stuff added thats unnecessary when all u have to do is removing or nerfing things to balance this game.

add jump archery and nerf magic and u get melee being shit as i personally wont engage a player in melee if jump archery gets added in 1v1. why get hit in melee when u can avoid it through jump archery and still do damage? how about u just nerf magic damage/aoes and leave archery as it is?

[James Troll]

Ok no skill cap, but we obviously need an attribute cap, and to be able to spec them.

[Kasmos]

*cough*

...

Are you mentally challenged?

I wasn't advocating a hard cap, only one towards crafting skills since they obviously AREN'T adding in a skill cap.

I have always advocated a soft cap with skill decay system that allowed you to level up skills very quickly so changing "specializations" would not be too much of a grind of hassle.

Aventurine's stated system is going to create all the same potential problems people see with skill caps and/or decay systems. Just wait and see...

Why don't you address my points instead of foolishly trying to make me look stupid, in turn only making you look like the idiot. You even KNOW from our last thread you and I butted heads that I strongly, STRONGLY support a soft cap with skill decay and am no fan of a universal hard cap.

[Shiva_Firewing]

this is basically the dumbest thing ever. That's not balance it's homogeneity

balance is magic beats melee beats archery beats magic.

easiest fix is to give infernal ridiculous magic resists and dragon ridiculous archery resists. revamp encumberance so dragon gives you enough encumberance to give a penalty to archery while infernal only gives you enough encumberance to give a penalty to magic.

i think the majority of hte confusion stems from initially it looking like magic was going to be balanced against itself with the opposing schools; air would boost archery, but then you'd miss out on the dps school earth, water would boost...mobility? but you'd miss out on the dps school fire.

hopefully they'll be able to revisit that kind of balance once they get their core mechanics nailed down better...

Balance does not mean Rock-Paper-Siscors. which is basicly what you are saying.

Balance means that any playstyle that exist SHOULD BE VIABLE.

if i decide to go ONLY melee i need to have some way to get INTO melee range.
if i decide to go ONLY magic i need to have some way to defend myself in melee (point blank aoe, stoneskin,etc... already in though most need some work)
if i decide to go ONLY archery i need some form of AoE based attacks (like a exploding arrow, i dont know, some shit)

if i decide to Melee/Magic - i need to pick, Heavy armour and penalty to magic - or Weak armour and be a squisky in melee.
if i decide to go Magic/Archery i need to pick - Cast a spell shoot a arrow or move away so i dont get pulled into melee
if i decide to go Melee/Archery i need to decide... fight without addition protections against magic, or spend a lot of money on expensive enchantments.

all of these need to be viable and balanced. that you cant comprehend any form of balance above rock-paper-siscors is not my fault.

[melcore]

wonder howmuch % the damage bonus would be, let's hope they keep it balanced


balanced? sounds like archery will be the new flavor of the month :)

[Fugean]

also, this isn't a skill cap vs. no skill cap thread, read the OP. there is not going to be a skillcap.... get it through all of your thick skulls. why must people constantly try and defend skill cap when it is not going to happen? why must people also post suggestions for skillcaps when it is not going to happen?

[Fugean]

p.s. if you feel the need to try and make suggestions for skillcaps knowing there will be none, do so in the suggestions section of the forums... this thread is not for that, stop trying to de-rail it.

[Darkbone]

I wasn't advocating a hard cap, only one towards crafting skills since they obviously AREN'T adding in a skill cap.
Well then, i'm sorry, you sounded a lot like you wanted a hard cap.

Anyway, I can see that the crafting thing is an issue for a lot of people.
But never underestimate the effect that the upcoming player vendors will have on that. I for one will happily neglect my crafting skills and see to it that i get most of my stuff from vendors. The current system with actively buying and trading was nice in the beginning, but for me it's too much of a hassle to scan trade chan all day and buy when someone is offering something i might need in a few days.
Way easier to just go out and farm the regs and let some clanmate craft the stuff for me or make the most important stuff myself.

That will change with vendors, because I also want to avoid the endless farming of all kinds of regs for my stuff. I prefer just going to a 'shopping mall' and buying the stuff from there. I even will pay extra for the ton of time people save me.

And i think a lot of people feel the same way. So player vendors might give a nice boost to the economie and provide a legitimation for peeps who want to play a crafter/merchant full time.

Maybe. Maybe not, we will have to see that, but i remain optimistic. :)
The health bar is half full, you know.

And as others said, AV might as well introduce some specialization path for crafters. I think thats where the current course of action ultimatiley leads to.



I have always advocated a soft cap with skill decay system that allowed you to level up skills very quickly so changing "specializations" would not be too much of a grind of hassle.


Softcaps are nice in theory, and a good deal of people opposing a hardcap could settle on that. But it would never work, because you can easily 'nullify' skill decay by using all your skills a few times before you go to bed. And that would lead to the exact same situation we had until the recent raise in skillgain.
No thanks.


Aventurine's stated system is going to create all the same potential problems people see with skill caps and/or decay systems. Just wait and see...

Exactly, just wait and see. If the changes in the expansion show that a specialization system is bullshit we might reiterate on the thought of a hardcap. But until then its pretty pointless to bitch about a system that you haven't even seen in action yet.

[Dolmar]

i doubt devs pvp a lot in this game so they just listen to players. the problem is players who post suggestions dont have enough pvp knowledge or dont see the big picture so u get more and more stuff added thats unnecessary when all u have to do is removing or nerfing things to balance this game.

add jump archery and nerf magic and u get melee being shit as i personally wont engage a player in melee if jump archery gets added in 1v1. why get hit in melee when u can avoid it through jump archery and still do damage? how about u just nerf magic damage/aoes and leave archery as it is?
So bring magic dmg and Aoes into the same dmg line as archery?
Thats stuiped DIAF!

[Kasmos]

And as others said, AV might as well introduce some specialization path for crafters. I think thats where the current course of action ultimatiley leads to.

I surely hope so.



Softcaps are nice in theory, and a good deal of people opposing a hardcap could settle on that. But it would never work, because you can easily 'nullify' skill decay by using all your skills a few times before you go to bed. And that would lead to the exact same situation we had until the recent raise in skillgain.
No thanks.

No, I don't support skill decay based PRIMARILY off of "last time you used it", meaning I don't support skill decay where skills drop in level simply because you didn't cast it that day.

What I DO support is a system where as you focus on leveling up certain skills (i.e. archery skills), other HIGH END skills you have will slowly begin to decline.

Meaning, you increase archery to 75 and start going even higher. Your one-handed melee skill which is at 90 starts to decline as your archery skill increases. This is a basic example and the system would obviously have to incorporate a lot more relationships between skills, but it would definitely work in my opinion.

Eitherway, they're going another route so I guess the point is moot. Any bets on which clan makes the first "specialization tree" calculator?


Exactly, just wait and see. If the changes in the expansion show that a specialization system is bullshit we might reiterate on the thought of a hardcap. But until then its pretty pointless to bitch about a system that you haven't even seen in action yet.

I'm not really bitching about a system I haven't seen yet, I was making the point that there WILL be flavors of the month, balance issues, and a lot of other problems that people associate with skill caps with this system how Aventurine just described it. But you're right, time will tell what is going to happen. I'm just eager to see what "specialization" will be the first overused and overpowered one. Then we can continue this conversation.

[kreen]

All very well and good so say Darkfall is not level based and is freeform. However, its easy to translate levels into for instance df magic powers, lesser that then opens up greater than then opens up elemental etc.

Just because it doesnt use the word "level" does not mean the df game is not "level based" as it plainly is, just in an indirect way. You raise your skills to get better performance - that is levelling.

Freeform is all well and good but this can lead to an out of control situation - aka spaming large aoe magic that requires no skill to aim, just lots of free time to grind. The game needed a restriction on magic use and the sad thing is it actually did have that in beta - you could only choose witchcraft or chanting and hence only necro or arcane and also could only have 2 elementals in a tied pairing - if they had left this in it would have gone a long way to solving their current out of control aoe magic spam issue.

The archery specialisation seems interesting but unless there is a aoe bow shot I can't see you competing against large aoe chain spamming aim challenged folks unless your aim is far superior - i'm quite a good shot with a bow but the aoe magic will get you more often than not.

Hopefully, if someone wants to use every magic school they get a penalty as well?

[Greywind]

I just hope AV will have common sense to test this changes on Public server.

[Dragoon]

wait wait...


no arcane, elemental or necro?!

that leave us with no buffs, (good) offensive damage spells, AoE's.

...that damage buff is also negated if the guy with the staff switches to a bow or sword between casts waiting on a cooldown.

Huh? If you use anti-mage specialization of course you wont be able to use high end magic as well. You can still use greater magic stuff and the lesser magic conversion spells like stam to health, mana to stam, etc.


WTB: AoE Arrows :S + More armour Pierces enchantable (as enchants and buffs dont stack, allow use to enchant armour pieces with different resist)

AOE arrows and different types of arrows would be nice.

[Draxous]

Why don't you address my points instead of foolishly trying to make me look stupid, in turn only making you look like the idiot. You even KNOW from our last thread you and I butted heads that I strongly, STRONGLY support a soft cap with skill decay and am no fan of a universal hard cap.

I did address your points.

Here, I'll hold your hand through this:

I wasn't advocating a hard cap, only one towards crafting skills since they obviously AREN'T adding in a skill cap.

You re-brought up the points that if everyone has a crafter, then what's the point...

So I re-minded you why your argument is empty.

Thanks,

Have a nice day. :)

[MrDDT]

Lol all these people posting ideas in here like they are going to read them.
More people want skill caps and yet the Devs dont care they are going to do whatever they want.

Game is slowly dying out and I dont see this fixing anything. They told us before release that there were a soft cap in this game. Thats totally NOT true.

I guess I was the fool for buying it (more then once) and having an account. I will let my money and time in game speak for itself.

Im going to go until my time runs out and see if this patch makes it better but I have little doubt.
Ive been a strong supporter of AV on thier patches and them taking longer then most games. But I guess the limited amount they were doing isnt even enough for me to say that anymore.

No skill cap is a game breaker for me. If I wanted to play a Counter Strike type game I would be playing it. I was looking for an MMO that allowed us to make choices in what we do to make a toon. Not allow us to grind everything and our choice was what to use.
Right now (and likely in the patch) they will still have FOTM builds but only TONS of skills everyone has to get or they are going to be raped in PVP.
I guess Im just not hardcore enough.
Dont even get me started on crafting.

[Fro]

What happened devs very own prestige classes and soft cap? What the fuck!!!
This is just a bullshit excuse for another thing they fucked up with an early release.

[Kasmos]

You re-brought up the points that if everyone has a crafter, then what's the point...

So I re-minded you why your argument is empty.

Thanks,

Have a nice day. :)

And I responded a few posts after in which I didn't get any response from you (that I could find).

Here, I'll hold your hand for you so you don't have to go searching.

I understand the "point", I'm talking about the "repercussions" of allowing said point towards crafting.

Tell me, what incentive does anyone entering the game have to be a straight crafter?

If I spend a month grinding up my crafting skills, what incentive do I as a PvPer have to buy from a crafter?

What incentive do I have to travel to another region for a cheaper set of "x" armor if I can spend not too long of a time to create my own WHILE increasing my stats?

What incentive would anyone have to use caravans or player owned houses if people have 50 homemade sets of the items the crafter is selling anyway?


These are just a few downsides that I believe exist with the current crafting system. Now, if they were to add some sort of major customizable overhaul to the system, such as allowing access to skills that allow the creation of rare items or new armors/weapons at the severe cost of damage output or something, I could also see that as a possibility. But leaving it how it is now is a horrible idea in my opinion.

[Nex Vita]

Lol all these people posting ideas in here like they are going to read them.
More people want skill caps and yet the Devs dont care they are going to do whatever they want.

Game is slowly dying out and I dont see this fixing anything. They told us before release that there were a soft cap in this game. Thats totally NOT true.

I guess I was the fool for buying it (more then once) and having an account. I will let my money and time in game speak for itself.

Im going to go until my time runs out and see if this patch makes it better but I have little doubt.
Ive been a strong supporter of AV on thier patches and them taking longer then most games. But I guess the limited amount they were doing isnt even enough for me to say that anymore.

No skill cap is a game breaker for me. If I wanted to play a Counter Strike type game I would be playing it. I was looking for an MMO that allowed us to make choices in what we do to make a toon. Not allow us to grind everything and our choice was what to use.
Right now (and likely in the patch) they will still have FOTM builds but only TONS of skills everyone has to get or they are going to be raped in PVP.
I guess Im just not hardcore enough.
Dont even get me started on crafting.

Your not the only one who feels this way. Guess I'll just have to see how mortal online does.

[Speedy_999]

Power-attack doing 50% more damage jummy, would be something around 90 dmg.

realy, i will see you to hit with melee power attack a bunny hopper mage/archer

[Kasmos]

No skill cap is a game breaker for me. If I wanted to play a Counter Strike type game I would be playing it. I was looking for an MMO that allowed us to make choices in what we do to make a toon. Not allow us to grind everything and our choice was what to use.
Right now (and likely in the patch) they will still have FOTM builds but only TONS of skills everyone has to get or they are going to be raped in PVP.
I guess Im just not hardcore enough.
Dont even get me started on crafting.

Amen brotha, it's a shame people don't realize this.

[Morrolan]

Claus is the fucking shit. All you haters need to read this over and over until you start to understand that despite its problems, the vision behind this game is fucking beautiful and no other game has come close in years.

[Abaratican]

Claus is the real santa.

[thedrumchannell]

Claus is the fucking shit. All you haters need to read this over and over until you start to understand that despite its problems, the vision behind this game is fucking beautiful and no other game has come close in years.

Amen! :)

[Vyore]

Considering the planned changes, i really hope that magic will be adjusted - in my opinion something like a shared cooldown on similar ranked spells could do the job, re-introduce jumpshot archery and give melee a good way of closing up the distance.

Mage-killer, i dont know but playing totally without magic limits the way to play by such a large margin that its not worth it, even if someone wants to be archery melee, sometimes a witches brew or a nuke to finish someone off is just too important. Especially in the pvp situation atm of fighting zergs.

[Aristos]

Many Darkfall community members argue that characters with developed skills have a strong advantage over newer characters. Claus pointed out that having an advantage is normal and has nothing to do with the complete domination that we encounter in class/level systems. People tend to forget that a relatively new Darkfall player with some work and individual player skill is very viable and competitive.

This really irked me. I don't see how they can't see the enormous gap that is created between new and vet players by the ability to have all magic schools maxed, melee mastery, and archery masteries at the same time. Not only would the older player have almost twice as much health as the newer player, he would be doing nearly 3 times as much damage. The only way the newer player would be able to do any amount of damage that would be considered "competitive" is if he grinded up to sharpshooter and a melee mastery. There's a world of difference in damage between those who have masteries and those who don't. So no, a newer player has no chance whatsoever against a vet player who has high magic. Even with all archery skills maxed, you have to get a direct hit to do damage with an arrow. A mage can hit with every single spell for more damage without even aiming. To be competitive in this game, you HAVE to grind. More so than any other game I've played to be honest. Darkfall is 15% player skill, 85% character skill. Those guesstimations would drastically changed if magic was balanced, because melee and archery both take their fair amount of player skill.

Aventurine, the problem with Darkfall's balance in PvP lies at the game's core. Basic things such as player momentum, a slight pause in movement after jumping, and a more penalizing effect of encumberance of spells need to be implemented.

Maybe a skill cap is not the answer, but at least consider global cooldowns for all spells of the opposing school you most recently used. So if you cast fireball, you can't cast any water spells for a certain amount of time.

Sometimes I seriously wonder if the devs have even played their own game. And I mean fighting the ridiculous amount of people who have several magic schools maxed, not killing people who just got the game a few weeks ago.

[Slaker]

Considering the planned changes, i really hope that magic will be adjusted - in my opinion something like a shared cooldown on similar ranked spells could do the job, re-introduce jumpshot archery and give melee a good way of closing up the distance.

Mage-killer, i dont know but playing totally without magic limits the way to play by such a large margin that its not worth it, even if someone wants to be archery melee, sometimes a witches brew or a nuke to finish someone off is just too important. Especially in the pvp situation atm of fighting zergs.

You can still use witches brew, learn to read.

[Manik78]

Considering the planned changes, i really hope that magic will be adjusted - in my opinion something like a shared cooldown on similar ranked spells could do the job, re-introduce jumpshot archery and give melee a good way of closing up the distance.

Mage-killer, i dont know but playing totally without magic limits the way to play by such a large margin that its not worth it, even if someone wants to be archery melee, sometimes a witches brew or a nuke to finish someone off is just too important. Especially in the pvp situation atm of fighting zergs.

An easy fix, remove splash and only leave field aoes.

[Aristos]

Amen brotha, it's a shame people don't realize this.

/signed. If AV lets the game continue the way it is without addressing the problem at it's core, I think the game's going to be dead by at least a year from now.

[kreen]

This really irked me. I don't see how they can't see the enormous gap that is created between new and vet players by the ability to have all magic schools maxed, melee mastery, and archery masteries at the same time. Not only would the older player have almost twice as much health as the newer player, he would be doing nearly 3 times as much damage. The only way the newer player would be able to do any amount of damage that would be considered "competitive" is if he grinded up to sharpshooter and a melee mastery. There's a world of difference in damage between those who have masteries and those who don't. So no, a newer player has no chance whatsoever against a vet player who has high magic. Even with all archery skills maxed, you have to get a direct hit to do damage with an arrow. A mage can hit with every single spell for more damage without even aiming.

Aventurine, the problem with Darkfall's balance in PvP lies at the game's core. Basic things such as player momentum, a slight pause in movement after jumping, and a more penalizing effect of encumberance of spells need to be implemented.

Maybe a skill cap is not the answer, but at least consider global cooldowns for all spells of the opposing school you most recently used. So if you cast fireball, you can't cast any water spells for a certain amount of time.

Sometimes I seriously wonder if the devs have even played their own game. And I mean fighting the ridiculous amount of people who have several magic schools maxed, not killing people who just got the game a few weeks ago.

Excellent post