Hardcore Casual

[Ramjesty]

Hardcore Casual is a blog by Syncaine, a self-described hardcore PvPer gone casual. In it you’ll find a good number of interesting and constructive posts and comments regarding his experience as a player of Darkfall.

His latest article is about impact PvP and how loss in-game may affect someone’s play style. We’d like to think of Darkfall as the epitome of impact PvP, and the article itself is very interesting, making many valid points. We also happen to enjoy following Hardcore Casual ,so we’d like to put our spotlight on Syncaine’s article (http://syncaine.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/impact-pvp-are-you-part-of-the-niche/) for you today.

We hope you enjoy it.

[blob]

nice article, but most of ppl are not quiting because of losing gear or city, they quit because of unbalanced pvp , exploits , 6h sidge system , bank bug that that makes this game no full loot game.

[NinjaOptix]

Interessting article, he has valid points about the impact on a player and his playstyle through pvp.

Another theory i have is that it depends on the psyche of the player himself because alot of times i witnessed myself aswell as other players instead of quitting after a big loss/ draw back, do the exact opposite.

So it can, other then discourage playing, encourage players to put in even more effort to make up for the loss and punish the ones responsible for their defeat, to in the end, stand there in gloryous victory and feel proud.

regards

[spool]

nice article, but most of ppl are not quiting because of losing gear or city, they quit because of unbalanced pvp , exploits , 6h sidge system , bank bug that that makes this game no full loot game.

Oh, I know a lot of people quiting because of gear. But yea, the reason most people are quiting that I have played with, is also about just being bored. Grinding magic was really the only thing they had going, and the sieges and stuff on weekends. But now that magic was speed up, they max everything out in a few days and now litterely sit there with Weapon Mastrys at 100, all magic schools at 100 and nukes/AOE's 75+ wounding what to do while looking at their now worthless gold piles sitting in the banks.

This game needs content and fast to save the EU1 players, while the NA1 players currently have stuff to do, its going to wear out in a month or so. Hopefully this upcoming expansion really is an 'expansion' and not just another 'large update'.

Never the less nice blog there, look forward to reading more in the future. Finally AV is doing something productive, which is keeping in touch with their customer base. Its refreshing to see after nearly a month or so without any news from Devs at all.

[SynCaine]

Thanks for the post and link Ramjesty, glad you enjoy my writing. It's also great to see Aventurine put this all together, should make a great game even better!

[Grouikfr]

I also enjoyed the read, it's always nice to have a clear and logical view, not altered by the fancy games of the moment. According to your thought, I'm part of the niche too :D

[Realbigdeal22]

I finish reading. Nice post. If we can manage to be big like EVE one day, i think that the new mmorpg devs who got load of money will this time make a sandbox mmorpg with pvp impact instead of theme park like they use to do.

[alessiora]

Interesting read ;).

[Warrior]

I do believe impact PvP is a niche in the genre, one that far more people BELIEVE they want then actually do

I disagree with the entire foundation of this essay. More people would enjoy the niche then even realize it. The problem is most can not even envision how it might really work as game developers themselves can not figure it out and instead cater to the amusement park mode.

When someone quits a PvP game because they lost all their stuff, are they really quitting because they didn't have fun in the PvP expereince (even though they lost)? Or are they really quitting because the PvM requirement to gain any resources and gear back is to daunting and annoying. Think about that. Even PvP centered games, the developers have been idiots in balancing the amount of time in game needed to spend PvM vs the time needed to play PvP. They set up PvM as like a toll booth you need to pay in order to get to the PvP fun. When no one likes this lets conclude the PvP aspect is a niche? Try creating a balanced and integrated PvP and PVM

On Asheron's call Darktide is was possible to PvP for hours, lose a bunch of stuff to other players, and then kill a few monsters to make that gold back and work off the penalty within 10 minutes. This stands far above all these other mmorpgs in which you need endless farming in order to have enough resources that you might then someday consider going out in PVP and not crying when you lose all your stuff.

[SynCaine]

Just wanted to drop in again and post some links to recent DF-related posts on my blog that people here might enjoy.

The other side of open world accessibility (http://syncaine.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/the-other-side-of-open-world-accessibility/)

The fear of impact in the MMO genre (http://syncaine.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/the-fear-of-impact-in-the-mmo-genre/)

Day one accessibility from an unlikely source (http://syncaine.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/day-one-accessibility-from-an-unlikely-source/)

DarkFall battle report (http://syncaine.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/darkfall-battle-report/)

Maybe its time to return to WoW (http://syncaine.wordpress.com/2009/08/31/maybe-its-time-to-return-to-wow/)

[Örn]

nice article, but most of ppl are not quiting because of losing gear or city, they quit because of unbalanced pvp , exploits , 6h sidge system , bank bug that that makes this game no full loot game.

screw that, I´d pleh for all these things, they get fixed you see.

I quit for school.. darkfall is too addictive :(

[baxtonc]

I disagree with the entire foundation of this essay. More people would enjoy the niche then even realize it. The problem is most can not even envision how it might really work as game developers themselves can not figure it out and instead cater to the amusement park mode.

When someone quits a PvP game because they lost all their stuff, are they really quitting because they didn't have fun in the PvP expereince (even though they lost)? Or are they really quitting because the PvM requirement to gain any resources and gear back is to daunting and annoying. Think about that. Even PvP centered games, the developers have been idiots in balancing the amount of time in game needed to spend PvM vs the time needed to play PvP. They set up PvM as like a toll booth you need to pay in order to get to the PvP fun. When no one likes this lets conclude the PvP aspect is a niche? Try creating a balanced and integrated PvP and PVM

On Asheron's call Darktide is was possible to PvP for hours, lose a bunch of stuff to other players, and then kill a few monsters to make that gold back and work off the penalty within 10 minutes. This stands far above all these other mmorpgs in which you need endless farming in order to have enough resources that you might then someday consider going out in PVP and not crying when you lose all your stuff.

You lack the mentality of the scavenger. You also miss the point of having economies, and their importance in games of this scale. Would you like to know how long I've spent gathering in Darkfall before I decided to try my hand in pvp? 20 minutes. I chopped at a tree for 20 minutes before I decided, "You know, I've been doing this to asteroids in Eve for over a year now, I think I will go get owned instead." Mission accomplished. I've been killed more times than I can count already, lost everything almost every time, but the learning experience was worth it. Not only that, it was damn fun. But more importantly, I understood that I was not the only person this was happening to. So I sought out fights, hid, and scavenged everything I now own and use. (I also stole a Drake from someone who no doubt thought I didn't see him sneaking up on me from MILES away)

The point of all that is, spending time grinding to get back to where you were at your peak in this game is a point of view, a flawed point of view. That isn't to say I don't understand your point, because I do, but you have every opportunity to prepare for that eventuality and if you ignore those chances you set yourself up for frustration. At that point you have no one to blame but yourself. That's the most important lesson for the longevity of this type of game.

On to your point about Asheron's Call - I loved that game, especially the Darktide server in the early days. But if you don't think there was a grind to get your stuff back - you're recalling a sort of "the good old days" mentality that doesn't truly exist. Dying in that game could be the most brutal experience if you died in the wrong place. But it wasn't a "quick grind" that made it possible to get back into fray so quickly, it was their wonderful Patron/Vassal system, something I miss in MMO's and would love to see again someday. The Patron had every reason to want his Vassals well equipped and ready to fight, because the incentives to him/herself were so great. Gain XP and money while I'm offline because people tied to my character give me a percentage of everything they gain? Beautiful.

[Warrior]

The point of all that is, spending time grinding to get back to where you were at your peak in this game is a point of view, a flawed point of view.

A flawed point of view? That is why Im advocating that "feature" should not be in the game. It is a simple fact that in any game with some risk of loss there will be times you need to work to get back to where you already were. Here is my question, why should players spend most of their time in game not fighting other players, but endlessly PREPARING to fight other players. That was the question Darktide solved before anyone asked it. PvP for hours on end then spend 20 minutes working off what you lost. Every game since has given the wrong answer.




On to your point about Asheron's Call - I loved that game, especially the Darktide server in the early days. But if you don't think there was a grind to get your stuff back - you're recalling a sort of "the good old days" mentality that doesn't truly exist. Dying in that game could be the most brutal experience if you died in the wrong place. But it wasn't a "quick grind" that made it possible to get back into fray so quickly, it was their wonderful Patron/Vassal system, something I miss in MMO's and would love to see again someday. The Patron had every reason to want his Vassals well equipped and ready to fight, because the incentives to him/herself were so great. Gain XP and money while I'm offline because people tied to my character give me a percentage of everything they gain? Beautiful.

You are of the carebear mentality when you even expect to get your stuff back at all on Darktide or survive by getting free stuff from a patron. The point was you absolutely could gain equivalent stuff/resources back in a few minutes after having lost it all to another player - assuming you know how to play and use the lifestones, portals ties and death items properly. Sure there was a treadmill to level up. There was a treadmill to gain power. There was not a bad treadmill to maintain your status quo just because you happen to have lost all your stuff.

Shadowbane, Darkfall all the others that followed abandoned this princple. Of course there will be never ending bitching about losing your stuff when you die and you have to play a treadmill just to stay where you are or participate in PvP again. Cities can be destroyed in 1 hour of PVP after it took 4000 hours of PvM to build them? Idiocy in game design. Let me build a city in 1 hour of PvM and then players can spend 4000 hours in PvP for control over it. See my point? In that way the static cities of Darktide that people fought over were much better then any games that followed with player built and destructible cities...

[Sevristh]

I think the point you are missing about this game, and any game of its like, is that it is not just a PvP game. It is an MMORPG with hardcore PvP elements. The rules for entry have been made clear - your character is eternal and cannot lose anything he/she has trained or gained in skills or spells. Everything else is up for grabs. You have the ability to work towards owning your very own city - a city built by players, controlled by players, defended by players, and conversely, destructible by players. You will have good times and bad times. It is important to remember the good times. This game is like a George R.R. Martin novel in its harsh reality. PvP is what fuels the need to keep playing it, but it is not the only aspect of it. If it was, it would not be Darkfall, it would be Counter-Strike.

There is always a time to lick your wounds.

Rome was not built in a day. How long did IT take to be destroyed?

[HeliosNorlund]

i think that a game like df will allways start in anarchy
and it need time that someone who stays is able put some
ruling hand on a part of the world

the first try of "order" nations was a failure because
it was created by players not hardcore enought to stay

maybe one of the future attempts have success

i myself part of a "destruction" alliance
would love to have some "order" establish in some parts of the world

not by game mechanics
just by players

then the real game starts
a "chaos" nations against "order" nations
without beeing forced by game
just because of the nature of humans

its in our nature to create things and to destroy things

df could be a "experiment" to study human mentality

u learn a lot about urself and mankind in general here

i learned im to "nice" for being a bad boy
but i also love to destroy stuff way to much to be one of the "good" guys

so im stranded in the realms of chaos as one of the few nearly nice people there

[Makestro]

The only content DF had was the magic grind, now that it is gone once you're done you log in maybe once a week to do a 6h siege in a huge zerg and log out. No reason to play the game because gold is worthless once your skills are capped, and gear well, most gear don't take more then a couple days effort to get a nice stash of.

AV needs to add lore content and improve on the structure of the game or else it'll be like shadowbane was.... only a couple hundred people playing at any giving time unless a siege is going on, what will drag the game to it's death because well.... it's an mmo.



Add content

Add lore

Improve on the current systems

Profit

[xpiher]

The only content DF had was the magic grind, now that it is gone once you're done you log in maybe once a week to do a 6h siege in a huge zerg and log out. No reason to play the game because gold is worthless once your skills are capped, and gear well, most gear don't take more then a couple days effort to get a nice stash of.

AV needs to add lore content and improve on the structure of the game or else it'll be like shadowbane was.... only a couple hundred people playing at any giving time unless a siege is going on, what will drag the game to it's death because well.... it's an mmo.



Add content

Add lore

Improve on the current systems

Profit

The lore is in the game, whats not in the game is lore centric PvP. Add that though an RvR like system that people can opt into, and you have a great game.

[Tenebrion]

The lore is in the game, whats not in the game is lore centric PvP. Add that though an RvR like system that people can opt into, and you have a great game.

I completely and 100% agree with the person that you're arguing with, in that Darkfall needs more fluff. A lack of fluff in a game like Darkfall is like having a sandbox but no shovels or buckets.

Like I've been saying since the beta, Darkfall needs more cows.

[HeliosNorlund]

put a harsh lore system into game could be done with a one time option of switch charakter race

this way ARAC clans have the choice become single race clans

without that its impossible u cant break game coniubity and clans in part by put in harsh race rules without this single time race change option

maybe not even single time put a way for later also in game something like a really hard to complete quest chain where u need help of friends and only repeatable once every 3 months but at the end u can change ur race

[Fuzzball]

I disagree with the entire foundation of this essay. More people would enjoy the niche then even realize it. The problem is most can not even envision how it might really work as game developers themselves can not figure it out and instead cater to the amusement park mode.

When someone quits a PvP game because they lost all their stuff, are they really quitting because they didn't have fun in the PvP expereince (even though they lost)? Or are they really quitting because the PvM requirement to gain any resources and gear back is to daunting and annoying. Think about that. Even PvP centered games, the developers have been idiots in balancing the amount of time in game needed to spend PvM vs the time needed to play PvP. They set up PvM as like a toll booth you need to pay in order to get to the PvP fun. When no one likes this lets conclude the PvP aspect is a niche? Try creating a balanced and integrated PvP and PVM

On Asheron's call Darktide is was possible to PvP for hours, lose a bunch of stuff to other players, and then kill a few monsters to make that gold back and work off the penalty within 10 minutes. This stands far above all these other mmorpgs in which you need endless farming in order to have enough resources that you might then someday consider going out in PVP and not crying when you lose all your stuff.

I completely disagree with your response. Game Developers CAN figure it out and already HAVE figured it out. Don't forget, they are gamers too and have spent hundreds and even thousands of hours playing the same games you have. In fact, they never would have gotten a job in the industry if they weren't passionate about gaming. Game developers do however have to follow a set of rules. Very rarely does one get an opportunity to take risks.

You have to understand that businessmen are in charge of most of these developers and publishers, not game designers. They have to rely on statistics, and marketing techniques to determine what "group" to cater towards. It just so happens that casual (beginners and intermediate) players make up most of the market so companies have to adjust accordingly. That is why all games have tutorials, why most have simplified controls, menus, and content, and why anti-cheat systems are not a top priority. The industry is certainly not flawless and their is also a huge gap in communication between publishers, developers, and executives.

The truth of the matter is, when a player quits a game because they lost all their gear, it is because they aren't having fun more often then not. Why pay $15 a month to get killed over and over again? At least that is the mentality for most people anyway. Lets face it, Darkfall is a niche game and they knew it before they even started developing it. It was built for intermediate and hardcore gamers which is often frowned upon in the industry. Clearly taking risks, which is why Aventurine is considered an amauter company compared to others...because they didn't follow the "rules" (also why they had trouble finding a US publisher).

Moral of the story: Darkfall really IS a "niche" game.

PS: same goes for patch releases. It sometimes takes months for these companies to get a patch approved for release. Afterall, you can't risk raising the ESRB rating for accidently adding some content that is innaporpriate or your company will be out another $10,000-$25,000 in fines(maybe more).

[xpiher]

I completely and 100% agree with the person that you're arguing with, in that Darkfall needs more fluff. A lack of fluff in a game like Darkfall is like having a sandbox but no shovels or buckets.

Like I've been saying since the beta, Darkfall needs more cows.

Fluff isn't lore. Fluff is stuff like housing, farming (growing potatoes), etc. Fluff is needed, but the lore is there. Whats not there is lore thats in your face (bosses, demigods, the world stones etc) and the RvR that should be there. Adding both of these would be great additions to the game and give people something to do in between PvP.


put a harsh lore system into game could be done with a one time option of switch charakter race

this way ARAC clans have the choice become single race clans

without that its impossible u cant break game coniubity and clans in part by put in harsh race rules without this single time race change option

maybe not even single time put a way for later also in game something like a really hard to complete quest chain where u need help of friends and only repeatable once every 3 months but at the end u can change ur race

There isn't a need to force the lore on people through the guild mechanics. However, an Opt into system with meaningful RvR (items, new bind places, taken over NPC out post, opening quest, etc) would be great addition.

[Fuzzball]

Fluff...

I think the word you are thinking of is content :). Either way, same thing. Content in MMO's diffinitely is a crowd pleaser but it isn't the only thing that makes a game successful. Darkfall relies on many things including community and economy. The one thing that would make this game A+ for me is developer involvement. However, I think their current policy is, "don't interfere with the player driven economy". Understandable, but a mistake in my opinion. They could do a lot of useful things like setting up events...but then again, that kind of follows the lines of the "don't do anything that would cause a player to lose their items" policy :(. Kind of makes me feel sad for the GM's since they can't be more involved.

[Uncletouchme]

I enjoyed the read and also watched the video a few times because my son was in the fight and I was trying to find him. (still on EU waiting transfer).

RvR is my big issue. Yes the lore is there, but it doesn't have a foot hold on anything but ink to paper. ARAC clans defeat the purpus of lore sadly. The races need to be as they were designed. Does that mean the single race Alfar will hurt? I think not. As to all the Alfar I run across. RvR should be in 24/7. It is by player choice and group control to interact with one another outside of RvR.

Nothing stops me from trading or talking with a RED. Today we trade and talk knowing each other (ingame or outside). Tomorrow we fight. And the stories we have for each other the next time we trade.

The lore is played, the game is played, the fun is had. But of course that is in the perfect world.

[xpiher]

All lore driver RvR should be an opt in with benifits where whole guilds can only opt in if they meet the lore standard, but players can opt in at any time.

[HippieOnLSD]

The problem is the grind. Point and case.

[DeepUndercover]

nice article, but most of ppl are not quiting because of losing gear or city, they quit because of unbalanced pvp , exploits , 6h sidge system , bank bug that that makes this game no full loot game.

Most people I have seen quit have quit because magic absolutely ruined pvp.

[-morph-]

Most people I have seen quit have quit because magic absolutely ruined pvp.

far far more people have probably quit over a lost city or guild anihilation since launch - read Hyperion and Cotc.

The defeat of those two empires alone probbaly cost the server a thousand subs.

The world suddenly became a lot more empty after the defeat of those two empires.

Although you are certainly right that currently magic / pvp balance is losing the most people. And the fact that the lack of server wars atm is making it quite boring.

[FizzleAlot]

The lore is in the game, whats not in the game is lore centric PvP. Add that though an RvR like system that people can opt into, and you have a great game.

Cerberus tries to bring lore centered PvP.
We stick as Mahirims/Orcs, just like it's supposed to be.
Our purpose is to take over the Tribelands and the Orc lands.

Given the strength of the "all races" alliances, it's really hard to accomplish.
Given the state of the game, players join big alliances over Cerberus, and since the number of players is decreasing, we suffer from it more than most.

I can tell you that we lost players for multiple reasons, being :
- Lack of action (we can't siege huge alliances, it's just not realistic).
- Skill gap between macroers/safe spot farmers and more defensive/raiding players.
- People that were not ready for the "full loot" and "full pvp" system. Yeah, those people that thought "Hey, it's like WoW pvp, it's cool! I hope i'll get a title, lulz.".

There are, of course, other reasons but they are not linked to the subject of this thread.

I have not yet seen Cerberus players leaving because they lost a hamlet or city. On the contrary : getting spanked once in a while pushes players towards PvP (take revenge, siege back...).

In my opinion, Darkfall Online will never have a player base as large as WoW or Aion, carebear games. But Aventurine needs to promote their game. And promote Race Alliance wars / Lore Alliances :)

[xpiher]

There shouldn't be penalities for ARAC clans, they should just be benifits for non ARAC clans. Positive reinforment. You can accomplish that through opt in RvR where whole clans can opt in and get some nifty things that only clans can get. The reason I say that it shouldn't be forced is becuase the unpopulat races will get spanked. Wolf/Orc will be dominated becuase no one plays those two races anymore, alfar would dominate, then human et al

[Zealot-Ex]

As a hardcore PvPer-gone-casual gamer (because of obligations in "real life"), I can respect this blog, but I think the writer needs a bit of a visual overhaul... breaking up the blocks of text with some visuals or just more concise writing would help.

I gotta' agree that full-loot MMORPGs are a niche part of the genre, and as such create a taboo on allowing players to loot fully their slain opponent(s).

Still - I think "meaningufl PvP" doesn't need to imply harming other players' progress. PvP in general, if looked at critically, needs to involve causing some detriment to another player (usually through character death, and whatever ramifications are involved with that), otherwise there would be no "versus" between players.

hskdfaigigdwljhsaglkhdfsoighrwae;oigvncx bvgwoi. Drink moar b33r plz.

[Jergux]

thx for your supply