Stewpidity

[Honest Bill]

Are people, generally becoming more stupid? Or have they always been this stupid?

[Tithan Natus]

Yes, ever seen the movie Idiocracy? Except in reality its at a much faster pace!

So much for ninja edit..

[Honest Bill]

Yes, ever seen the movie Idiocracy? Except in reality its at a much faster pace!

So much for ninja edit..

Yeah i've seen that film. But one would assume, that with more facilities and opportunities for education, that more people would make use of them.

I mean surely people have always been stupid?

Or perhaps there are just more people, and therefore more stupidity

[Tithan Natus]

Yeah i've seen that film. But one would assume, that with more facilities and opportunities for education, that more people would make use of them.

I mean surely people have always been stupid?

Or perhaps there are just more people, and therefore more stupidity

Yeah that seems about right.

[Carnagel]

I think they're becoming less stupid actually

It's like a curve, when you take it back to the late 1800's people were smarter in general, then a hundred million or so of the best and brightest were killed in the early 1900's through war and the spanish flu, and the curve went down again, slowly rising until about the 40's, then another downward trend with another 50 million or so of the best and brightest dying

Then it curved up again, reaching a certain pinnacle around the 70's, it then went down again as we headed towards the new millennium, but since then in my own opinion it has started to head back up again. The last decade has seen some truly amazing advances in all areas of science, and if we can avoid another war costing us a few hundred million of our smartest youth, we may just reach the 'golden age' of science, progression and enlightenment

:)

[Bosemann]

The internet facilitates the ease with which we can find others who believe similar stupid ideas, and therefore feel secure in them without challenging them logically.

So individuals aren't any stupider, but we see more groups of stupid people?

[Dark Lily]

There may be smart people, but 'the people' are dumb as hell.

[Honest Bill]

I think they're becoming less stupid actually

It's like a curve, when you take it back to the late 1800's people were smarter in general, then a hundred million or so of the best and brightest were killed in the early 1900's through war and the spanish flu, and the curve went down again, slowly rising until about the 40's, then another downward trend with another 50 million or so of the best and brightest dying

Then it curved up again, reaching a certain pinnacle around the 70's, it then went down again as we headed towards the new millennium, but since then in my own opinion it has started to head back up again. The last decade has seen some truly amazing advances in all areas of science, and if we can avoid another war costing us a few hundred million of our smartest youth, we may just reach the 'golden age' of science, progression and enlightenment

:)



But surely these scientific advancements are coming from a tiny percentage of the population?

Maybe we are just more exposed to people's stupidity through the media

[DocGonzo]

But surely these scientific advancements are coming from a tiny percentage of the population?

Maybe we are just more exposed to people's stupidity through the media

they have ALWAYS come from a small, persecuted minority of people

it's not until afterwards that their contributions are appreciated, utilized, and disseminated

my thought is that the overall percentages would remain the same bell curve it always has been, education does not equal intelligence...as has been proven time and again in human history

[Carnagel]

But surely these scientific advancements are coming from a tiny percentage of the population?

Maybe we are just more exposed to people's stupidity through the media

Yeah like Boseman said, there is probably an impression that people are getting stupider, simply because the internet and media makes it possible to see more of them

We won't face the 'Idiocracy' crisis for another couple generations, the crisis being people with 'smart' genes not reproducing, and the dumb fucks having 12 kids. Hopefully we can sort something out in that 50 years or so we have to act

[Honest Bill]

they have ALWAYS come from a small, persecuted minority of people

it's not until afterwards that their contributions are appreciated, utilized, and disseminated

my thought is that the overall percentages would remain the same bell curve it always has been, education does not equal intelligence...as has been proven time and again in human history

So with a rise in population, the percentage of stupid people remains the same, while the amount of stupidity grows, so does the amount of intelligence?

[Apex Vertigo]

Education is merely a tool used by societies to shape the individual into a working citizen that benefits said society. Intelligence is something you are born with the capability to achieve and of course education helps facilitate this ability, it must first be there to work with.

Besides that, if you haven't noticed we are growing as a population at an exponential rate and the lesser half of humans by intellectual standards are having far more kids.

[DocGonzo]

So with a rise in population, the percentage of stupid people remains the same, while the amount of stupidity grows, so does the amount of intelligence?

so it appears, the levels rise due to population, but the curve's gradient remains as a constant

[Honest Bill]

Here's one to blow your mind.

Have you ever noticed, that the majority of stupid people are adamant that they are not stupid, and fervently believe in their own intelligence?

So.... Do you think your intelligent? ... But what if you're stupid and you acually don't realise it?

What if the Big Brother contestants are actually the smart ones? ...... OH THE HUMANITY!

[Carnagel]

So with a rise in population, the percentage of stupid people remains the same, while the amount of stupidity grows, so does the amount of intelligence?

I think so - unless like in my original post, where a whole generation gets killed off through war / plague epidemic, and we take a giant step backwards

In regards to the media impact on how we perceive the outbreak of stupidity, it has a lot to do with what they actually find newsworthy. The media will always report violent crime, which is perpetrated largely by stupid people. Also actual acts of stupidity in general always get reported by the media. But if something smart happens, it either gets a column in a science review journal and maybe a by-line in a media report, or just not reported at all by popular media

The way we can combat that trend is to completely ignore 'popular' media like news shows and current affairs programs, and subscribe to journals and media outlets which promote clever idea's and amazing advancements in science / health / medicine etc.

[Dark Lily]

Here's one to blow your mind.

Have you ever noticed, that the majority of stupid people are adamant that they are not stupid, and fervently believe in their own intelligence?

So.... Do you think your intelligent? ... But what if you're stupid and you acually don't realise it?

What if the Big Brother contestants are actually the smart ones? ...... OH THE HUMANITY!

So what does that make the people who openly admit to being stupid?

[Honest Bill]

I think so - unless like in my original post, where a whole generation gets killed off through war / plague epidemic, and we take a giant step backwards

In regards to the media impact on how we perceive the outbreak of stupidity, it has a lot to do with what they actually find newsworthy. The media will always report violent crime, which is perpetrated largely by stupid people. Also actual acts of stupidity in general always get reported by the media. But if something smart happens, it either gets a column in a science review journal and maybe a by-line in a media report, or just not reported at all by popular media

The way we can combat that trend is to completely ignore 'popular' media like news shows and current affairs programs, and subscribe to journals and media outlets which promote clever idea's and amazing advancements in science / health / medicine etc.

But surely that won't help, because the ones who are stupid, will be the ones watching

[Honest Bill]

So what does that make the people who openly admit to being stupid?

Honest ....... OH MY GOD NOOOOOO!

[DocGonzo]

Honest ....... OH MY GOD NOOOOOO!

hoist by your own petard, methinks...

[Caffy]

I live in a country that elected Dubya(TWICE) and Barry. That's pretty damning evidence that the average American is completely retarded.

[Aleucard]

People in general are, for the most part, about as stupid as they've always been in just about everything but book smarts and tech. It's just that with the ability to broadcast the worst elements of society to everyone on the planet instantly, we're both aware of a lot more of it and give idiots an audience, which (as we all know) increases the chance for one of them to do something stupid and even makes the variety of actions even more idiotic as the audience's number grows. Kind of hard to get a bigger audience than the whole fucking planet, don't you think?

[Scully]

cookies

[Tithan Natus]

People in general are, for the most part, about as stupid as they've always been in just about everything but book smarts and tech. It's just that with the ability to broadcast the worst elements of society to everyone on the planet instantly, we're both aware of a lot more of it and give idiots an audience, which (as we all know) increases the chance for one of them to do something stupid and even makes the variety of actions even more idiotic as the audience's number grows. Kind of hard to get a bigger audience than the whole fucking planet, don't you think?

Except for North Korea, they don't get to see anything.

[Aleucard]

They get to see some things, I think. Little Kimmy might be completely batshit, but I don't think he'd COMPLETELY cut off the entire internet. Heavy blockage, sure, but not an entire blackout. Either way, they're about as nutty as it gets as a group, so it wouldn't matter much either way.

[PhamTrinli]

Are people, generally becoming more stupid? Or have they always been this stupid?

Have you ever seen the movie "Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi1526530841/)" ? :P

[Tithan Natus]

Have you ever seen the movie "Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi1526530841/)" ? :P

HEY, READ PAST THE FIRST DAM POST NEXT TIMe.

[StrawberryClock]

Are people, generally becoming more stupid? Or have they always been this stupid?

Contrary to this, the flynn effect indicates that we are getting 3 points higher per decade on IQ tests.

[Honest Bill]

Contrary to this, the flynn effect indicates that we are getting 3 points higher per decade on IQ tests.

But perhaps fewer people are taking them?
Are the IQ tests the same?
Are they being fairly tested on an adequate representation of society?

[StrawberryClock]

But perhaps fewer people are taking them?
Are the IQ tests the same?
Are they being fairly tested on an adequate representation of society?

You can read all about it.

Yes they are anyways. This is the reason why they have to re-standardize the test continually.

Currently it is the most baffling thing to psychometricians everywhere.

Theories indicate that it might be something to do with the rise of technology and our improvements in education.

However, even in third world nations this trend continues.

Another theory is that IQ tests are a weak indication of IQ.

[Sharuk]

I think they're becoming less stupid actually

It's like a curve, when you take it back to the late 1800's people were smarter in general, then a hundred million or so of the best and brightest were killed in the early 1900's through war and the spanish flu, and the curve went down again, slowly rising until about the 40's, then another downward trend with another 50 million or so of the best and brightest dying

Then it curved up again, reaching a certain pinnacle around the 70's, it then went down again as we headed towards the new millennium, but since then in my own opinion it has started to head back up again. The last decade has seen some truly amazing advances in all areas of science, and if we can avoid another war costing us a few hundred million of our smartest youth, we may just reach the 'golden age' of science, progression and enlightenment

:)

The latest gerneration is full of morons though( Just go to a school these days :eek:)

[Dredgon]

Have you ever seen the movie "Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi1526530841/)" ? :P

Bad movie, but so true.

[StrawberryClock]

Flynn Effect you fucking dunce caps.

[DocGonzo]

Flynn Effect you fucking dunce caps.

as in Errol?


some good movies there, but i don't see the correlation...

:ninja:

[Lotharr]

I'd assume that it's just the decrease in social taboos or "small talk" behaviors.

The only thing we've got left from the history is obviously the outer crusts of people, which were in a way more well behaved because of these taboos and behaviors.

However, that has nothing to do with actual intellectual capacity.

[PhamTrinli]

HEY, READ PAST THE FIRST DAM POST NEXT TIMe.

don't wanna :P

[DocGonzo]

don't wanna :P

and thus you prove the axiom that 08's ( for the most part) are fucking intellectual midgets lacking the good sense granted to a mollusk with Down's syndrome on crack

gg indeed, sir....gg indeed

die in a fire of Sarah Palin...

[Lotharr]

Bad movie, but so true.

The movie is a joke, obviously. The theory it relies upon would have one major flaw.

That flaw being this: The general population's intelligence has risen steadily, even the stupidest persons are a lot smarter than people hundreds of years ago.

In this case, smart ones would still appear depending on who mates with whom, while the general population's intellect would keep rising steadily.

Like I've said, the fact on how well you behave has nothing to do with how intellectual you are.

[Honest Bill]

The movie is a joke, obviously. The theory it relies upon would have one major flaw.

That flaw being this: The general population's intelligence has risen steadily, even the stupidest persons are a lot smarter than people hundreds of years ago.

In this case, smart ones would still appear depending on who mates with whom, while the general population's intellect would keep rising steadily.

Like I've said, the fact on how well you behave has nothing to do with how intellectual you are.

But was Morrison really a genius, or did he just make great tunes?

[Lotharr]

But was Morrison really a genius, or did he just make great tunes?

His IQ was 149. Although, I do not personally believe that IQ truly describes how a person is, it does often give a direction.

[DocGonzo]

But was Morrison really a genius, or did he just make great poetry and performance art?

there, fiXt that for ya....

the Music came form the rest of the band, in that realm Manzerak(sp?) was the genius

[Honest Bill]

Well, for some factual evidence: His IQ was 149.

Really? Well fair enough. But i wasn't really calling in to question people's behaviour.

But this raises an interesting question. If a 'genius' does a lot of stupid stuff, is he still a genius? Or is he even more stupid for knowing how stupid it is, yet still doing it all the same?

Is that so Doc?

Oh well either way, great tunes all the same

[DocGonzo]

Really? Well fair enough. But i wasn't really calling in to question people's behaviour.

But this raises an interesting question. If a 'genius' does a lot of stupid stuff, is he still a genius? Or is he even more stupid for knowing how stupid it is, yet still doing it all the same?

i think you mean eccentricities of behavior...

historically most outright brilliant fuckers were strange birds indeed in other realms, like most nerds there were social adaptability issues, among other maladaptations, or even just plain being oblivious to things going on right in front of them...

my thinking is that those types of minds have to "pay" for having such focus/ability in one area by lacking it in others...usually by dint of just not giving a shit

[dinkfall]

Are people, generally becoming more stupid? Or have they always been this stupid?

People are becoming smarter(flynn effect, natural selections of ideas ("memes"), easier available information), thus follows that living conditions are getting dramatically better and economic growth is increasing at a higher rate than what even the most optimistic economists predict.

Since the first humans learned to speak in abstract terms they have been predicting doomsday. They've always been wrong.
You could argue through folk-psych that it's because of the fear of their own finiteness that they predict the end of the universe(actually, according to laws of physics energy is never lost, only transformed).
But I'd more simply argue that it's just because of the shitty prediction capabilities our brain has.

Also "stupid" is no absolute, it is completely relative to one's goals. Unless you know what you want you can't really talk of stupid, and even then you can't really apply it to other people unless you know what they want.

[Lotharr]

But this raises an interesting question. If a 'genius' does a lot of stupid stuff, is he still a genius? Or is he even more stupid for knowing how stupid it is, yet still doing it all the same?

The person would still be a genius, I think. How would doing stupid stuff affect it?

In reality, most of the stuff some deem stupid is just the breaking of old social norms. Some of it is just checking the borders. Some of it is looking for experiences and unburdening stress or depression.

This is a question of temperament etcetera. It doesn't have to do with how much of a genius you are.

[Honest Bill]

i think you mean eccentricities of behavior...

historically most outright brilliant fuckers were strange birds indeed in other realms, like most nerds there were social adaptability issues, among other maladaptations, or even just plain being oblivious to things going on right in front of them...

my thinking is that those types of minds have to "pay" for having such focus/ability in one area by lacking it in others...usually by dint of just not giving a shit

perhaps they are smart enough, that they aren't bothered by such trivialities?

But is IQ even a relevant way to measure how smart someone is? If my IQ is abnormally high, and yet i still find 'The fast & The Furious' to be a great movie, am i not just as stupid? Do my actions not count as stupid?

[DocGonzo]

perhaps they are smart enough, that they aren't bothered by such trivialities?

But is IQ even a relevant way to measure how smart someone is? If my IQ is abnormally high, and yet i still find 'The fast & The Furious' to be a great movie, am i not just as stupid? Do my actions not count as stupid?

you confuse taste with intellect, imo

[dinkfall]

perhaps they are smart enough, that they aren't bothered by such trivialities?

But is IQ even a relevant way to measure how smart someone is? If my IQ is abnormally high, and yet i still find 'The fast & The Furious' to be a great movie, am i not just as stupid? Do my actions not count as stupid?

How is enjoyment of The Fast & The Furious related to IQ?

But I wouldn't worry too much about IQ, computers are better than even the most high IQ humans at computations etc. and computers are getting better at a faster rate than humans.

[Lotharr]

But is IQ even a relevant way to measure how smart someone is? If my IQ is abnormally high, and yet i still find 'The fast & The Furious' to be a great movie, am i not just as stupid? Do my actions not count as stupid?

IQ isn't exactly a measure which covers every field. Intelligence is quite a grey field honestly. It can mean quite a few things.

Personalities can be wise in something, while being stupid in another. Also, obviously liking 'The Fast & The Furious' has nothing to do with your IQ nor other areas of intelligence.

[Honest Bill]

How is enjoyment of The Fast & The Furious related to IQ?

Because surely one would have to be stupid to like it. Although if i'd really thought about it, i'd have said 'anime' that provokes a far more irritated reaction from a larger number of people in my experience.

[Lotharr]

Because surely one would have to be stupid to like it. Although if i'd really thought about it, i'd have said 'anime' that provokes a far more irritated reaction from a larger number of people in my experience.

Preferences in entertainment have nothing to do with intelligence.

[Honest Bill]

No preferences have to do with intelligence.



No but they do irritate people... Nevermind, i was just trying to get people to bite.... If i'd said 'anime' i would have had a greater chance of provoking an angry reaction.

But you get my point all the same. Replace my needless critique of that movie, with any random stupid act.

Do my actions not go some way to defining who, or in fact what I am?

[Lotharr]

But you get my point all the same. Replace my needless critique of that movie, with any random stupid act.

Indeed. I answered in a manner which is independent from the selected act.

Do my actions not go some way to defining who, or in fact what I am?

Sure, they do. However, intelligence is just one of the many human attributes.

[DocGonzo]

Do my actions not go some way to defining who, or in fact what I am?

yes they do, imo...moreso then what one says or thinks, what one does is the greatest indicator of who one is

[Honest Bill]

So if I am intelligent, yet i act stupid, then which am I?

What is intelligence? ability to understand? To comprehend? the general cognitive faculty?

[Lotharr]

So if I am intelligent, yet i act stupid, then which am I?

You are both, just in different fields. Kind of a vague question.

[DocGonzo]

So if I am intelligent, yet i act stupid, then which am I?

confused/conflicted or possibly clinically insane

but do you mean the "absent minded professor" kind of thing?

[Honest Bill]

You are both, just in different fields. Kind of a vague question.

Ah. That makes sense i suppose. So you must take stock of every different facet of your skills and attributes and assess them all seperately

[dinkfall]

So if I am intelligent, yet i act stupid, then which am I?

Stupidity is relative to what your goals are, there are intelligent, more efficient ways of achieving things and there are stupid, less efficient ways. If you claim to be intelligent and act counter-prodcutive to your goals(act stupid) then you're either lying about the intelligent part or lying about what your goals are.
Though of course you'd better first define what exactly you mean by intelligent.

[Lotharr]

So you must take stock of every different facet of your skills and attributes and assess them all seperately

Something like that, yes.

[Honest Bill]

confused/conflicted or possibly clinically insane

but do you mean the "absent minded professor" kind of thing?

I guess I have moved in to a more existentialist realm of conversation. In that I am just trying to provoke a debate on whether it is actions that define a person, or their thoughts and reasoning

[Honest Bill]

If you claim to be intelligent and act counter-prodcutive to your goals(act stupid) then you're either lying about the intelligent part or lying about what your goals are.


I like this, this is good

[DocGonzo]

I guess I have moved in to a more existentialist realm of conversation. In that I am just trying to provoke a debate on whether it is actions that define a person, or their thoughts and reasoning

you can't separate it all like that, but must view the totality, imo

an autistic who cannot communicate with the world, but who's mental life might be rich, complex and varied to a very high degree is what?

a good question, but i'm an advocate of not making a judgment until ALL possible Variables are taken into account

silly of me, i know

[dinkfall]

I would define a person as both the physical body moving in spacetime and the non-physical illusionary self(identity) the person creates for his benefit.
Here's a good text about it: http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/selfctr.htm

[[O]_Fawkes]

General Discussion.

/thread

[Lotharr]

Stupidity is relative to what your goals are, there are intelligent, more efficient ways of achieving things and there are stupid, less efficient ways. If you claim to be intelligent and act counter-prodcutive to your goals(act stupid) then you're either lying about the intelligent part or lying about what your goals are.
Though of course you'd better first define what exactly you mean by intelligent.

In my opinion, that's just being smart about things. That would not cover what intelligence fully stands for at all.

[Lotharr]

+2

[StrawberryClock]

+2

I too +1 to that.

Isn't that banned though?

[Lotharr]

I too +1 to that.

Isn't that banned though?

Most likely.