Cap and Tax

[Caffy]

Has passed 219 - 212 in the house.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/house-passes-historic-cap-and-trade-energy-bill

Looks like Enron finally got their way after all these years. Ken Lay wishes he was alive to get rich off of this scam.

[palo god]

Now we get to enjoy higher prices.

[Caffy]

The new economy will be built around chips.

http://www.connectamarillo.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=316847

[palo god]

The new economy will be built around chips.

http://www.connectamarillo.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=316847

Did they tax the CO2 emissions from her queefs?

[DocGonzo]

the tears are wonderful...keep it up, i need to fill my pool!!

all fucking around aside, i am skeptical and will wait to read the bill AFTER it comes out of the House/Senate reconciliation

until then... it's less than nothing

[Caffy]

the tears are wonderful...keep it up, i need to fill my pool!!

all fucking around aside, i am skeptical and will wait to read the bill AFTER it comes out of the House/Senate reconciliation

until then... it's less than nothing

Are you one of the 431 congressmen who didn't read the 1500 page bill before voting on it?

[DocGonzo]

Are you one of the 431 congressmen who didn't read the 1500 page bill before voting on it?

nope...

never been elected to anything, but i have only looked over the outline so far...have you read the entire bill?

as i said, i will indeed read the entire bill, AFTER it goes through reconciliation, until then it's pointless

[Caffy]

nope...

never been elected to anything, but i have only looked over the outline so far...have you read the entire bill?

as i said, i will indeed read the entire bill, AFTER it goes through reconciliation, until then it's pointless

I don't need to read it, as I'm against the entire concept of global warming scams. ;)

It doesn't matter what form it takes.

I simply don't believe that 3.4% of all CO2 in the atmosphere, which is just 3.62% of all greenhouse gases, themselves making up just 2% of the total atmosphere, is causing any discernible change in climate. I certainly don't believe that a bill that global warming alarmist say will increase CO2 emissions will do anything about it.

[Miira]

I'm just against 1500 page bills. They know the general public won't read a bill that long even if they understood it. They sneak in all sorts of crap that they wouldn't dare pass as a single bill.

[DocGonzo]

I don't need to read it, as I'm against the entire concept of global warming scams. ;)

It doesn't matter what form it takes.

I simply don't believe that 3.4% of all CO2 in the atmosphere, which is just 3.62% of all greenhouse gases, themselves making up just 2% of the total atmosphere, is causing any discernible change in climate. I certainly don't believe that a bill that global warming alarmist say will increase CO2 emissions will do anything about it.

you are aware, however, that CO2 is not the ONLY emission under consideration in this whole matter, yes?

take, for instance mercury form a coal plants exhaust, or the rest of the gases involved...like carbon monoxide from a car's tailpipe

but i understand, you won't let facts or shit like that get in the way of ideology

[Slithy]

Fuck the US government, just making my life harder

[Vessol]

you are aware, however, that CO2 is not the ONLY emission under consideration in this whole matter, yes?

take, for instance mercury form a coal plants exhaust, or the rest of the gases involved...like carbon monoxide from a car's tailpipe

but i understand, you won't let facts or shit like that get in the way of ideology

Doesn't that show you how full of shit the whole bill is? Why are they rushing it so fast so no one can even read it?

Global warming is just a political agenda for the fucking feds to tax even more.

[DoveAlexa]

Doesn't that show you how full of shit the whole bill is? Why are they rushing it so fast so no one can even read it?

Global warming is just a political agenda for the fucking feds to tax even more.
but before they were deniing it even existed and would block anyone saying so, why the huge change if its all about them?

[DocGonzo]

Doesn't that show you how full of shit the whole bill is? Why are they rushing it so fast so no one can even read it?

Global warming is just a political agenda for the fucking feds to tax even more.

and you make this claim not having read it, or it even having gone through the senate, much less reconciliation yet?

i am in awe of your prowess

fucking around aside, until it's final and we can look through it...all else is speculation and worthless, imo

[Vessol]

It'll go through the Senate I can guarantee you. The democrats control that even more.

[DocGonzo]

It'll go through the Senate I can guarantee you. The democrats control that even more.

i don't agree...senators are much tougher to corral than the House

we will see, and i'll probably hate parts of it and be indifferent ot most, with a few things i think are ok...but as i said, until we see the final form of the bill, or even have read all of the House version...we don't really know shit, but are merely speculating worthlessly

[The Dark Zealot]

Cant wait to get taxed every time I let out a fart.

[Vessol]

i don't agree...senators are much tougher to corral than the House

we will see, and i'll probably hate parts of it and be indifferent ot most, with a few things i think are ok...but as i said, until we see the final form of the bill, or even have read all of the House version...we don't really know shit, but are merely speculating worthlessly

So you're not worrying about a bill that those who pass it are not even reading?

[DocGonzo]

So you're not worrying about a bill that those who pass it are not even reading?

well now...i am not in agreement with your assertion that all those folks either didn't read it, or have it read and summarized by staff...it's been hammered on for a while now, and those "in the know" have had it plenty long enough

now, i would bet as lot of those who opposed it didn't read it, either because they are "opposition" and weren't given it in advance to read...or just don't care because they would vote against it because they are the "opposition"

cursory examination doesn't show anywhere near the level of fuck up that the last big thing that went through with NO ONE really even seeing it...the PATRIOT Act....this at least was House generated and had committees going over it and such in the proper manner....nothing like having it slammed on the desk from the WH and shoved through with NO hearings or ANY staff having the chance to even read it through

so am i concerned? of course...but i have looked at the CBO numbers and it just doesn't look like the sky is falling so far...but i'll wait until i can read the fucking thing before screaming

[Vessol]

conservative as always, fair enough old man, fair enough

We'll see. I however, am a bit pessimistic.

[Caffy]

you are aware, however, that CO2 is not the ONLY emission under consideration in this whole matter, yes?

take, for instance mercury form a coal plants exhaust, or the rest of the gases involved...like carbon monoxide from a car's tailpipe

but i understand, you won't let facts or shit like that get in the way of ideology

How does adding more shit that they want to tax make it better?

You're either for cap and tax to 'stop' the mythical destruction of the world presented in the global warming hoax, or you're not.

[DocGonzo]

How does adding more shit that they want to tax make it better?

You're either for cap and tax to 'stop' the mythical destruction of the world presented in the global warming hoax, or you're not.

so Manichean of you...

so it's impossible to think things will be removed in the senate, or in the reconciliation process?

would that i had your certitude about anything in life

[Caffy]

so Manichean of you...

so it's impossible to think things will be removed in the senate, or in the reconciliation process?

would that i had your certitude about anything in life

If by 'Manichean' you mean a dualistic belief in 'right' and 'wrong', then yes it's very Manichean of me.

What is it that you think will be removed?

It's a cap and tax bill. Removing that portion of the bill would be like removing military spending from a war bill. It would just be pork at that point. :confused:

[DocGonzo]

If by 'Manichean' you mean a dualistic belief in 'right' and 'wrong', then yes it's very Manichean of me.

What is it that you think will be removed?

It's a cap and tax bill. Removing that portion of the bill would be like removing military spending from a war bill. It would just be pork at that point. :confused:

it's a lot more complex than you are making out in your simplistic synopsis

hence the 1500 pages

the devil is in the details, and fuck if i am going to read the bastard this week end, just so i can read it again after the senate, just so i can read it fucking again after the reconciliation

but i'd rather do the due diligence than bitch about unsubstantiated sound bytes

[Caffy]

it's a lot more complex than you are making out in your simplistic synopsis

hence the 1500 pages

No, it's really not.

They're politicians, and professional bureaucrats. They could write a 1,500 page bill on funding research for pig sweat.

the devil is in the details, and fuck if i am going to read the bastard this week end, just so i can read it again after the senate, just so i can read it fucking again after the reconciliation

but i'd rather do the due diligence than bitch about unsubstantiated sound bytes

Would you say you needed to read a 1,500 page declaration of war against Iran before you decided if we were actually declaring war on Iran, or would you just take it from the 500 news services saying "In today's news we declared war on Iran, oh and MJ died!"

It's really not as complicated as you make it sound.

[DocGonzo]

Would you say you needed to read a 1,500 page declaration of war against Iran before you decided if we were actually declaring war on Iran, or would you just take it from the 500 news services saying "In today's news we declared war on Iran, oh and MJ died!"

It's really not as complicated as you make it sound.

if it's reported that the War Powers Act had been implemented by the proper declaration from Congress...i'd take it as given, and read it anyway to look for loopholes, back doors and other assorted bullshit

this bill is a very complex instrument, yes the overview is "cap and trade" plus other things called "green"... but i am a skeptic, and will hold my forming an opinion until i know the facts to my satisfaction just so i can bitch properly

that's as simple as i can make it

[Caffy]

if it's reported that the War Powers Act had been implemented by the proper declaration from Congress...i'd take it as given, and read it anyway to look for loopholes, back doors and other assorted bullshit

this bill is a very complex instrument, yes the overview is "cap and trade" plus other things called "green"... but i am a skeptic, and will hold my forming an opinion until i know the facts to my satisfaction just so i can bitch properly

that's as simple as i can make it

While you're waiting for all the information, they're ramming this through in the dark of night, without letting anybody read the bill.

They added 300 pages last night. They didn't even have the full bill put together in one piece for everyone to read until almost 6:30 last night, and they voted at 8:00.

I don't see how you could support anyone voting for a bill that changes the way the entire country runs without even reading it. How many times have you complained about the same thing with the Patriot act? Tarp? The 'Bail Out'?

Yes, it still has to go through the senate, but given recent history it's more likely to get porked up to buy votes than fundamentally changed. See TARP.

Something tells me if they had just passed the Patriot act 2.0 rescinding your protection from unreasonable search and seizure you wouldn't be sitting here saying "let's wait and see if they took away our right to free speech before we start bitching!"

[DocGonzo]

While you're waiting for all the information, they're ramming this through in the dark of night, without letting anybody read the bill.

They added 300 pages last night. They didn't even have the full bill put together in one piece for everyone to read until almost 6:30 last night, and they voted at 8:00.

I don't see how you could support anyone voting for a bill that changes the way the entire country runs without even reading it. How many times have you complained about the same thing with the Patriot act? Tarp? The 'Bail Out'?

Yes, it still has to go through the senate, but given recent history it's more likely to get porked up to buy votes than fundamentally changed. See TARP.

Something tells me if they had just passed the Patriot act 2.0 rescinding your protection from unreasonable search and seizure you wouldn't be sitting here saying "let's wait and see if they took away our right to free speech before we start bitching!"

i guess i didn't make something clear here

WTF do you propose doing about it? what do you think can be done between now and the bill's signing?

i never advocated for or against it did i?

all i said was that i would reserve my bit until i read it

but do continue with the wailing and gnashing of teeth...

and a strawman indeed comparing the 4th amendment to an energy tax and cap on pollutants...don't you think?

[Caffy]

i guess i didn't make something clear here

WTF do you propose doing about it? what do you think can be done between now and the bill's signing?

I was planning on bitching a lot. You?

That is the point of forumfall, no?

i never advocated for or against it did i?

all i said was that i would reserve my bit until i read it

All I'm saying(well not all:p) is that you will never get to read the entire bill before it's passed if you wait until the last minute. They are rushing it through.

but do continue with the wailing and gnashing of teeth...

Don't mind if I do.

and a strawman indeed comparing the 4th amendment to an energy tax and cap on pollutants...don't you think?

Hardly.

You would not be sitting quietly, Ho-Humming, if they tried to pass the Patriot act 2.0. The scope, scale and importance is irrelevant. Your reaction is the subject.

[Strangia]

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=197656

[DocGonzo]

@ Caffy

if it was erasing the 4th Amendment i would indeed take action

it's a few hours drive to the Canadian border from here

[Shaehl]

Unemployment at its highest in decades, recession getting ready to fire up into full blown depression, many companies already struggling to survive in the US--the only way to fix the problem?

Levy strangling eco-regulations on businesses! That will get the economy fired up and ready to create new jobs!

Fuck Obama, I can't even fathom how he thinks it's a good time to further burden the economy. Fucking bullshit.

[StrawberryClock]

I read something about how this might create new jobs in the green technology and green energy sector that might surpass the amount of jobs lost.

But if that fails, the U.S gets fucked even more.

[DocGonzo]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iCrlkWb6ccyqhj-6Iw-sY-2abzMAD9931PG80

some info for the ignorant

the CBO numbers are most interesting

and industries can avoid any kind of penalty by keeping pollution under their cap or using , *gasp* , the free market to trade permissions

as i said previously, it's not the big shit here, but the details involved that will say a lot, imo

[Shaehl]

Except those "green" jobs would be dependent on the survival of the companies that need their services. If the regulations become too burdensome, the businesses won't be able to afford these eco-measures any more and the new jobs will be fall too.

[StrawberryClock]

Except those "green" jobs would be dependent on the survival of the companies that need their services. If the regulations become too burdensome, the businesses won't be able to afford these eco-measures any more and the new jobs will be fall too.

If new green jobs are created and companies utilize these jobs, why would the government want to destroy them? That move doesn't seem like it would fit into the environmental spirit of the current government.

[StrawberryClock]

If this bill takes a slow approach to the economy until recovery happens, I wouldn't see this as too much of a problem. We are seriously fucking over the atmospheric gas balance after all.

[Silverhandorder]

Cap and Trade is a good idea when you are dealing with real pollution and not CO2.

[DocGonzo]

Cap and Trade is a good idea when you are dealing with real pollution and not CO2.

read the link, it applies to all airborne pollution emissions

[Silverhandorder]

read the link, it applies to all airborne pollution emissions

That is why you don't see me bitching as much.

[Caffy]

Except those "green" jobs would be dependent on the survival of the companies that need their services. If the regulations become too burdensome, the businesses won't be able to afford these eco-measures any more and the new jobs will be fall too.

If Spain is any evidence we will lose 2-3 jobs for every green job we create.

Cap and Trade is a good idea when you are dealing with real pollution and not CO2.

I would rather they outright ban serious pollutants instead of trying to make money off of selling the rights to pollute.

[Strangia]

But! Its the trickle down theory! Free Market! If the rich have the moniez, it will go to poor people? Isn't that what Ron Paul Luther King our Savior said?

[Ziegler]

DOc, you're right about seeing how bad the situation is at the end of the process on O's desk.

But I find it hardly believable that a bill passed in the house, by the democrat controlled house...is going to be severly gutted or changed to any significant degree in the senate. They dont have to compromise with the republicans, and they havent been.

If anything, more earmarks will be added to the bill.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/103xx/doc10376/hr2998WaxmanLtr.pdf

There's the link to the CBO release.

Here's the issue though..cap and trade doesnt work. The worst polluters are just going to buy credits from others and continue dumping...unless the credits are steep enough and fines steep enough to be more expensive than dumping money into R&D OR...any company thinking of starting in the US will take a much longer and harder look at going to mexico or china instead.

[Caffy]

But! Its the trickle down theory! Free Market! If the rich have the moniez, it will go to poor people? Isn't that what Ron Paul Luther King our Savior said?

Does it bother you being stupid?

[Silverhandorder]

I would rather they outright ban serious pollutants instead of trying to make money off of selling the rights to pollute.

That would be ideal. I somehow doubt we will be able to stop the for the greater good crowd.

But! Its the trickle down theory! Free Market! If the rich have the moniez, it will go to poor people? Isn't that what Ron Paul Luther King our Savior said?
wtf are you smoking.

[DocGonzo]

DOc, you're right about seeing how bad the situation is at the end of the process on O's desk.

But I find it hardly believable that a bill passed in the house, by the democrat controlled house...is going to be severly gutted or changed to any significant degree in the senate. They dont have to compromise with the republicans, and they havent been.

If anything, more earmarks will be added to the bill.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/103xx/doc10376/hr2998WaxmanLtr.pdf

There's the link to the CBO release.

Here's the issue though..cap and trade doesnt work. The worst polluters are just going to buy credits from others and continue dumping...unless the credits are steep enough and fines steep enough to be more expensive than dumping money into R&D OR...any company thinking of starting in the US will take a much longer and harder look at going to mexico or china instead.

well now i think you missed some Tricks here

for example...a new business wanting to open in the US has merely to ensure their emissions are up to standard, then they can turn around and auction off their excess permissions to the highest bidder among the polluters ( coal plants,. anyone?) for PURE PROFIT!! it costs them nothing after the facility is built, but provides a secondary revenue stream for NO cost to them

the Market would work FOR the process, instead of against it as it does now

just a Thought...

[Silverhandorder]

well now i think you missed some Tricks here

for example...a new business wanting to open in the US has merely to ensure their emissions are up to standard, then they can turn around and auction off their excess permissions to the highest bidder among the polluters ( coal plants,. anyone?) for PURE PROFIT!! it costs them nothing after the facility is built, but provides a secondary revenue stream for NO cost to them

the Market would work FOR the process, instead of against it as it does now

just a Thought...

What other pollution is prohibited in this bill. Why is news not talking about that?

[StrawberryClock]

What other pollution is prohibited in this bill. Why is news not talking about that?

Cuz they is teh jooz.

[alfaroverall]

My basic idea here, though my opinion is probably of little consequence: good sentiment, remotely decent basic idea for implementation (but much worse than many alternatives), fucking awful time to choose to do it.

[DocGonzo]

My basic idea here, though my opinion is probably of little consequence: good sentiment, remotely decent basic idea for implementation (but much worse than many alternatives), fucking awful time to choose to do it.

do enlighten as to the better alternatives pl0x?

[alfaroverall]

do enlighten as to the better alternatives pl0x?
The better alternatives are NOT short term, but regardless:
R&D on electric vehicles (as in, battery, not hydrogen fuel cell)
Work on pulling us away from coal-fired electricity as much as possible using nuclear and renewables.
Improving the nation's power lines; also R&D on better conductors, and maybe some R&D on room temp superconductors if there's some funds around for it.

I misspoke somewhat however (I blame the fact that it's after midnight), in that this or a variant of it is pretty much the only short term way to try to decrease emissions, at least that I can think of. I just don't think that trying to decrease emissions immediately is that good of an idea, partially since climate change, while a substantial issue, isn't going to have a high immediate chance of fucking us over for a few decades at the least. I think we should be worrying more about the global and more importantly national economy for the time being, and maybe trying to take actions that will benefit both it and the environment (I think some of my suggestions would probably do some of that).

[DocGonzo]

The better alternatives are NOT short term, but regardless:
R&D on electric vehicles (as in, battery, not hydrogen fuel cell)
Work on pulling us away from coal-fired electricity as much as possible using nuclear and renewables.
Improving the nation's power lines; also R&D on better conductors, and maybe some R&D on room temp superconductors if there's some funds around for it.

I misspoke somewhat however (I blame the fact that it's after midnight), in that this or a variant of it is pretty much the only short term way to try to decrease emissions, at least that I can think of. I just don't think that trying to decrease emissions immediately is that good of an idea, partially since climate change, while a substantial issue, isn't going to have a high immediate chance of fucking us over for a few decades at the least. I think we should be worrying more about the global and more importantly national economy for the time being, and maybe trying to take actions that will benefit both it and the environment (I think some of my suggestions would probably do some of that).

reasonable points, however i think we might be conflicted on "near term" and "long term"

the link i provided previously gives a bit of the timeline involved and it's progression and shows it's not some kind of immediate crushing and onerous bit of rules ot comply with right away, it is a progressive scale over time

electric vehicles have some promise, but the electricity still has to come from somewhere...and batteries, both creation of new types for higher efficiency as well as disposal are big factors of consideration, imo

we can all agree coal is dirty, but cheap and plentiful in the US...my big problem with nuclear is the "lowest bidder" syndrome coupled with what the fuck do you do with the waste?

with you 100% on better distribution and upgrading power lines, i don't know if that's in this bill ( have not read the whole thing yet) but i do remember some money in the stimulus for just that exact thing

as for the timing on decreasing emissions...can't be too soon, imo...once the problem hits a certain point of the curve, you get uncontrolled runaway of self enforcing feedback...add to that the simple fact we have known fossil fuels were finite and not in our national security interest to import in large quantities since the fucking 70's ( see Carter's state of the union on this very topic)...and we have done NOTHING about it

seems about time to start, eh? if not now....when?

my concern is if this is the best and most efficient way to proceed or not, that's very open to debate, imo

[Slypieguy]

LOLbal warming

[Caffy]

WASHINGTON — A day after strongly praising energy legislation passed by the House, President Obama on Sunday spoke out against a provision in the bill that would impose trade penalties on countries that do not accept global-warming pollution limits.
“At a time when the economy worldwide is still deep in recession and we’ve seen a significant drop in global trade,” Mr. Obama said, “I think we have to be very careful about sending any protectionist signals out there.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/us...e.html?_r=1&hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/us/politics/29climate.html?_r=1&hp)

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I declare a trade war.

There's a little detail some folks missed while not reading the bill they voted on. :rolleyes: