PvE Fix: More Loot, Less Crap.

[CattBoy]

Hey all,

After much review/discussion I would agree with 100% of the posts on how PvE is broken in its current state. If you need to look up any mobs I talk about in the below post you may follow along with the Sinister Map (http://www.afraidyet.net/forums/misc.php?do=page&template=Darkfall_Map)

Step 1: Fix walling.
Not by banning players but just reworking your terrain so you cannot even get inside of objects.

UNTIL Step 1 Is fixed you cannot progress to the following steps.

Step 2: Fix Monster Health.
I am assuming your 'hot-fix' on why you had to seriously buff HP on devils/demons/etc was put in place since they were just being walled for hours upon end and dropping the top tier items in the game. But, when you look at something that is suppose to be easy and yet is ridiculously hard doesn't make sense. Once walling is fixed you will need to adjust monster health accordingly.

IE: I do not understand how one player can spend a whole stamina bar parrying while I have 100/100/100/90 Archery and I can shoot a Snowclan mob IN THE BACK for an entire stamina bar with a rank 40-60 bow and its HP will drop barely below half. This mob is a Medium-Hard type, if it is not 2-3 mannable what is it ment to be? Snowclan loot is not nearly sufficient to be split amongst multiple people in its current state.


Step 3: Liquidate Assets of Drops.
My biggest concern is when you do kill a 'high end' monster they drop random items that are useless. Please tell me when I am going to spend 20 minutes killing a HUGE SCARY Elshade (lol) for it to drop the following:

Elfshade:
150g Gold, 6 Mandrake, 3 Resin, 15 Ash, 9 Sulfer, 6 Necer
%Chance to drop a Neithnal Key, or Runestone -> **One or the Other, not both. I have never seen multiple rare items drop from a single target.

Liquidate that (With market prices) 150 + 12 + 9 + 53 + 32 + 21 ~ 277g roughly.

I think I would rather take a full gold drop (with some rare item mob specific) to buy the items I feel are necessary for me to progress my character, instead of having to deal with stock piling my 3 Resin until I have a reasonable amount to even think about selling it. So 100 Elfshades x 20 minutes per + firing lots of arrows = Not a good payout. I don't think I am gaining any profit except my Archery skill. (Not including deaths since Shades spawn in packs of 3+)

If you are one of the reagent fans and actually enjoys the fixed loot from an elfshade, lets take a look at a Menhir Sentinel. Elfshades are about a Medium - Hard type monster whereas Menhir Sentinels are Harder-Highend (Higher-Highest tier mob in game).

Menhir Sentinel Drop:
*800 gold
*Weapon they are wielding [R60 2h Sword (Justice Bringer) | R60 2h Greatclub (Headcrusher) | R60 2h Axe (Executioners Axe)]
*% chance to drop Random Full Plate Armor Pieces (Mob Durability)
*Major Pots x5 (HP/Stam)

Liquidate that (With market/vendor prices) 800 + 50-100 + 50-100 + (35x5) ~ 1075-1175g roughly.

To start, in order to kill a Sentinel SOLO it will take you atleast an hour? (You must be perched on a rock or something since they hit you for roughly 40-60) In a group of 4, the time to kill is drastically reduced but now you are back on the level of elfshade loot again.

Key things to point out on mob loot currently:

1.1) Pre-Nerf mob dropped items were great. Kill a monster, take his weapon, go kill some newbs.
1.2) Post-Nerf mob dropped items. What is the point in a monster to drop an item that has a 5/50 Durability, when that item is going to break after 10 minutes of use? Sure it might look snazzy but it doesn't look so good if its crumbled in a pile at your feet.

2) "Randomness". I like how the current game is setup on a fixed loot rotation. A White Wyrm (Dragon) or Baelron (Demon) in Ultima Online is known for its magical items that it drops, hence why you hunt them. A Minotaur King / Devil / Black Lord in Darkfall online are known for having, OK gold drops, random half broken items, a small chance to drop a key, or a runestone, or a small amount of some random enchanting mat. And only ONE of the rare items keys/runestones/etc, not all, not a few, just one. Sure it is fixed but its not very random. I want to be able to hunt (either the monster or the players hunting the monster) the monster I know who is carrying the items I need to progress. If its a sword of awesomeness, well I want to go out to that spawn (maybe include spawn timers on rare mobs?) and hunt that mob/player for that sole piece of loot. Sure the spawn might be camped but isn't that the point in a PvP game? Fight for your location? I cannot recall the number of hours I spent 'hidden' in shadowbane waiting for my Rune mob to spawn only to find another Assassin waiting there to.

3) Perching. I feel like this does not need to be addressed, just add more spells to monsters cast-bars or add spells if they have none. If you watched the video of the Cactus team that killed the world first dragon (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=190173), you tell me. Do you think it was "an exploit" since the players stayed in the water to avoid the fire breath? Or is that just human nature out-thinking the dumb dragon who cannot swim? Pretty legit IMO. So if you are able to stand on a rock out of reach of melee mobs, I think thats pretty much out smarting the mobs, if the DEVs feel it is unfair add some spells for the monsters to fight back.

4) Mob AI/Threat. Pretty much kaputt (broken). Threat does not work, fix it so we CAN have someone to 'tank' things. AI, well I would post a video of mobs running into stairs for 3 minutes but I am sure everyone has seen that.


Conclusion:
I understand Darkfall Online is a pure pvp game, that is why I love it so much and do not want to see it belly flop but if you put it into a formula it just does not compute.

A] Time
B] Money
C] Items

In order to get B, you will need a LOT of A.
In order to get C, you will need a LOT of A + B.
In order reduce your A spent, (decrease the character grind) you can simply tweak the B and C.


Overall it will effect the economy on a positive side, less reagent drops from monsters but more gold/better items will allow more transactions to occur. More gold will allow cities to be built faster, yes I understand that, but it will give more of the 'gold farmers' to buy what they want from the Harvesters/Crafters allowing those players to buy what they want. Cities might be built faster, but so are the offenses to destroy those cities.


UNTIL Step 1 Is fixed you cannot progress to the following steps.

~CB

[thildebrand]

I am Pyro Sun and I approve this message.

1) fix mob exploits, don't just work around them and make the game more broken/unplayable at the highest tiers.
2) increase gold/item drops (although I disagree you should get full durability drops. if you *do* get full dur drops then the crafters need to be able to make that item literally 2x better for a *reasonable* mat cost).
3) make resources to craft more available. make rare resources available at contested, unownable locaitons throughout the world, perhaps make those locations randomly spawn.
4) no need to make the highest tier armor/weapons easier to obtain. They should be very expensive. 150k for full dragon armor and highest racial weapons sounds right to me since it makes you an extremely difficult mob to kill :)

With these changes crafting now becomes profitable and useful instead of everyone making their own stuff, more people are out pve/pvping = more chances for pvp. Also, these changes will make more resources/gold available to the player to purchase crafted items in higher quantity, therefore they will wear them more often = potential fix to 80% of the naked zerg = ending naked zerg complaints for the most part. (read: as the players have more wealth, they are willing to risk more. If players feel broke and that wealth is extremely scarce they will not spend *it's called a depression*)

Pyro Sun

[bongloads]

100% spot on post.


If they put small beams (imagine 2x4's) inside walls/rocks, it would be too tight of a space to summon mounts.

Mob HP/drops are retardedly skewed atm, forcing people to exploit

[Narcowski]

@Point 4: Tanking works, just not how you want it to. Mobs go after the player who will take the fewest hits to kill from their current HP. This means blocking drops aggro, as does wearing heavier armor than the rest of the party.

Personally I'm glad this part of PvE (at least) works how it does.

The rest of your post? I agree, mostly.

[bongloads]

@Point 4: Tanking works, just not how you want it to. Mobs go after the player who will take the fewest hits to kill from their current HP. This means blocking drops aggro, as does wearing heavier armor than the rest of the party.

Personally I'm glad this part of PvE (at least) works how it does.

The rest of your post? I agree, mostly.

Ya, i noticed they like to stick to me when i've got my non-full plate on and everyone else in group has full plate, they also like to stick to me when i'm the only one using a 2h sword and everyone else is using a 1h+ shield.

[Emitai]

98% support
the 2% rest is to defend the dev, that nerf the loot for the crafter to be usefull

[bongloads]

98% support
the 2% rest is to defend the dev, that nerf the loot for the crafter to be usefull

crafters are still very useful, even if mobs dropped 1 piece of armor each kill. the durability's crap but at least it's something to keep you farming

[fredfour]

/approved

[ellobo29]

somebody in AV hire this guy stat..... hes twice as smart as most of you

[Dope-Head]

/approved

[CattBoy]

I am Pyro Sun and I approve this message.

2) increase gold/item drops (although I disagree you should get full durability drops. if you *do* get full dur drops then the crafters need to be able to make that item literally 2x better for a *reasonable* mat cost)..
4) no need to make the highest tier armor/weapons easier to obtain. They should be very expensive. 150k for full dragon armor and highest racial weapons sounds right to me since it makes you an extremely difficult mob to kill :)


The reason I said mobs SHOULD drop full durability items is because if they fix step 1 the inflation of market prices in the game should balance themselves organically.

Think of it this way, if you can no longer sit in a wall (exploit) and kill a demon/devil (impossible to solo realistically) who drops mad loot thus forcing you to kill it legitimate wouldn't that make it hard again? Thus raising the market prices normally since there will be fewer and fewer of those items?

Just my thoughts.

Cheers,

CB

[CattBoy]

somebody in AV hire this guy stat..... hes twice as smart as most of you

Funny because I actually tried to go to their office in Greece back in Alpha/Beta but I got shot down... (plus I only had 2 days in Athens before I had to depart so my fault also /cry )

Maybe next time --- Greece Rocks! Go sexy greek chicks "Sizzle"


Efharisto (TY)

05-04-2007, 09:47 AM
Tasos
Darkfall Developer

Join Date: Jan 2003

Default Re: Greetings!
Well, for one we were in a production meeting all day, and second, I'm thinking you may have the old address, we've moved offices last year just down the street. I hope you didn't waste a trip, and I hope you had a good time in Greece.

Next time it would be better to write ahead.

Take care


Originally Posted by CattBoy
Hello Tasos, So i know you probably get like a million PM's but I currently I am in Athens, Greece backpacking through europe I just came back from IOS and Santorini and was wondering if Adventurine SA was open today. I did some research and found out what street you are on and around the Olympic stadium, i'm going to swing by later this afternoon before my flight leaves this evening. Hope to see you soon! Your friend from America, Jared

[Robinvi]

Very true.

[Scrappy_Doo]

I like the liquidating of items on the mobs. And also the hp on the medium/hard mobs needs to be tweaked a bit as well. I do understand not making the Dragon or demons soloable or even easy for a grp because it would just be camped by the zerg clans or the exploiter clans 24/7.

For example the Raven Standards takes almost a full stam bar of whacking on them from behind while bugged and still at 40% health and that is with them not fighting back. Imagine having to fight one of those as they are fighting back hitting you for 20-40dmg a shot taking good chunks of hp off of you each swing but you barely scratching them everytime you hit them for the same amount of dmg. The other night I figured out that a Raven Standard Officer has about 1500-1750hp maybe more depending on thier regen rate. That makes even just 1 of those mobs difficult for 3 or 4 players let alone a spawn with 5 or 6 of them swarming you. And then on the flip side of things you have a goblin spawn that 1 solo person in leather gear and a R10 weapon can clear out by himself.

The grind is horrid enough in this game but then to make the farming and pve small grp unfriendly is kind of harsh as well. Dumb down the medium and medium/hard mob's hp down about 50-60%. Not so much to make them more soloable but to make it so that even small grps don't have to exploit the mobs to make pve farming worth while and not so much time consuming.

Doing this can create more pvp options as well. Most times if we roll a troll spawn grp or a hobgoblin grp we may walk away with a few random pieces of mob dropped gear, whatever gear the ppl were wearing, and maybe 500gold. To split that all up amongst 5 or 6 raiders isn't worth it so much to even bother patrolling the common farming spots. It more worth while to kill a naked miner then it is to roll a grp of geared ppl at a hobgoblin spawn.

[Sin'jin]

Very good post. If they want to increase the population, they need to give said population somthing to do. PVE weather we like it or not is a vital part of any game be it pvp or not. UO had the best pve for a pvp game by far. Everything you hunted was worthwhile and useful. Even killing the lowest monsters gave you wood/feathers/hides etc... Thus reducing the grind for resources by just playing the game/hunting.

If AV thinks that opening a NA server with this type of pve is going to fly, they are sadly mistaken. People will buy the game, play a week and leave due to nothing to do. Chopping rocks all day to get the resources you need to equip yourself for pvp only to lose it all in a single battle = bad for subs.

I love the game, and I want to see it florish. To do that it needs a full pve revamp.

Once again, great post
/signed

EDIT: Mob drops must be returned to full durability at least and sell for more than 1 gold. This helps 2 fold. It gives new players some gear (far inferior to crafted as we all know) to wear and lose. It also would supply them with more gold to buy player made gear. The entire change to pve drops was just dumb.

[SEANMCAD]

the part I dont understand is the sitting in the wall part.

At first I thought people were just talking about getting a mob stuck between rocks or something.

What is this exploit people are talking about anyway? no details needed, just generally.

[freeze_SD]

the part I dont understand is the sitting in the wall part.

At first I thought people were just talking about getting a mob stuck between rocks or something.

What is this exploit people are talking about anyway? no details needed, just generally.


there's a "trick" that let's you get INTO walls/buildings (no teleport hack)
by spawning a mount in there, and having its head/tail stick out of the wall, you can attack the mob, but it cannot attack back

[Rayrox222]

@Point 4: Tanking works, just not how you want it to. Mobs go after the player who will take the fewest hits to kill from their current HP. This means blocking drops aggro, as does wearing heavier armor than the rest of the party.

Personally I'm glad this part of PvE (at least) works how it does.

The rest of your post? I agree, mostly.

Right I liked what the OP said about everything except the bit about the threat mechanic. I like that the AI doesn't stupidly in WOW like fashion beat on some geared up tank that is built to absorb all that damage. AI in Darkfall is smart enough to turn on casters/archers/2hand wielding users almost immediately in most cases, somehow knowing these will be squishiest or as Nar says, whatever will die in the fewest hits. With AI this smart, your option as a group is to either block the target in among people who are good with shields so none of them takes too much damage, or to kite as in jump-turn-shoot-run-repeat. With the former solution it's possible for ranged attackers to take the high ground and shoot at the target overhead so as to not hit their friends who have boxed it in. These tactics are both fun imo and the icing on the cake is having to be attentive to players jumping you while you're pveing and taking everything you've fought for. That in itself puts Darkfall pve ahead of what other games offer. Fuck instances and anti pvp safe zones.

[Emitai]

AV, already told they will improve the solo pve experience, it make me remenber that i could kill almost every mobs alone in UO, without to be extreme, i m happy to know noob can kill other things than goblin :p

[BrainFire]

I agree with this post.

[Fro]

If mbos only dropped gold and not reagents you would have to buy all your reagent from the vendors just make pve more profitable by reducing hp/increasing gold drop appropriately.

[bongloads]

.........EDIT: Mob drops must be returned to full durability at least and sell for more than 1 gold. This helps 2 fold. It gives new players some gear (far inferior to crafted as we all know) to wear and lose. It also would supply them with more gold to buy player made gear. The entire change to pve drops was just dumb.

I'm more in favor of them making armor dropping mobs drop their armor every time, with it's current durability deficiency. The dropped weapons are good as they are now, it makes people want to buy crafted ones. Dropped armor is too sparse for the low durability you get; you break your set of gear before you can farm a new one.

[Wizard of Yndor]

.
I agree with with the OP mostly. And I also think that weapons and armor should have a minimum durability when looted, that makes it at least worth using said items. Not cool to beat a tough monster and get a decent item which is so low on durability that is dangerous to use. Because it will break in mid fight, 10 minutes after you equip it, leaving a player more vulnerable than using a weaker item with good durability. Why even drop loot like that to begin with?

[Scrappy_Doo]

.
I agree with with the OP mostly. And I also think that weapons and armor should have a minimum durability when looted, that makes it at least worth using said items. Not cool to beat a tough monster and get a decent item which is so low on durability that is dangerous to use. Because it will break in mid fight, 10 minutes after you equip it, leaving a player more vulnerable than using a weaker item with good durability. Why even drop loot like that to begin with?


Actually sometimes the durability is so low that its only 1 or 2 hits away from breaking. I got a hobgoblin helm the other night with .8 durability left. Not even a full durability pt was on it. I looted a full plate chest once that had 47 durability on it and then another with 1.2 durability on it. So I am not sure what the formula or random roll they do for the drops is but its a rather large gap between its low end and its high end.

Either way though they need to make the pve grind a bit less. They claimed this game wouldn't be a "grind game" yet just about every night everyone has to spend at least 30-40% of thier time grinding either pve or skills.

[AudreySherman]

I didnt read everything, sorry for that, but..

Lesser mobs should drop very damaged items, medium mobs at better state, hard at very good state and hardest mobs in game - drops in excellent state, no durability loss.

Thats how I see it, the very exotic drops shouldnt hurt crafters. I agree full plate drops, plate, scale etc. should be damaged. But Infernal, Dragon and maybe some more ? No, not really. I myself call it as an exotic tier of armor, for some of you it might be crap item. Also, Khamset armor should be also in way more better state.

[Emitai]

Mobs could used laungh or telekinesi to grab player :)

[Bobbie]

I think the random durability is a good thing. And I disagree with you notion that mobs drop all the same stuff. I know what mob I need to hunt to get specific things, I think there is good variation.

What I disagree with, is higher end mob HP. They all need to be perch killed. Its broken. Mob hp for some reason drastically changes between mob groups. For example, lower end mobs have like 100hp (trolls), you get up to doom spiders who have about 300, then the next mobs up have like 700+ AND they hit like a truck. I dont know of any mobs inbetween.

[Nevr]

I think the random durability is a good thing. And I disagree with you notion that mobs drop all the same stuff. I know what mob I need to hunt to get specific things, I think there is good variation.

What I disagree with, is higher end mob HP. They all need to be perch killed. Its broken. Mob hp for some reason drastically changes between mob groups. For example, lower end mobs have like 100hp (trolls), you get up to doom spiders who have about 300, then the next mobs up have like 700+ AND they hit like a truck. I dont know of any mobs inbetween.

I think "random durability" should be less random. I'd say a 60% chance the drop is between 20-50% dura, a 30% chance the drop is between 50-75% dura, and a 10% chance the dura is 75-90%. Even then, crafter stuff will always be better in the damage and dura department because of wisdom and trueforge.

It should never be less than 20% though, I mean really, whats the point of it dropping at all then?

Other than that , I agree with most of the OP. PvE shouldn't be a money sink, it should be profitable. Most mob spawns right now just aren't. (unless you exploit in some way)

[BigCStyle]

Good stuff.

[Rayrox222]

hmm maybe they'll fix up loot tables some more in the expected patch early this week!

[rschanke]

I just felt like pointing out that if you spend 20 minutes per elfshades you suck. One of the best spawns in my previous part of the world was a 4x elfshade spawn. Here one could make 6k gold per hour mana missiling all 4. Took approximately 6-10 minutes to clear solo. If we're talking about 1 solo elfshade, it could be mountkilled(legit) in less than two minutes.

Your numbers are so off that what you say carries no merit.

As for how mobs shouldnt drop reagents, I admit i'd enjoy hearing you whine when reagent prices skyrocket and you can't use your gold to buy them anymore because everything drops gold, thus making it worthless.

[CattBoy]

I just felt like pointing out that if you spend 20 minutes per elfshades you suck. One of the best spawns in my previous part of the world was a 4x elfshade spawn. Here one could make 6k gold per hour mana missiling all 4. Took approximately 6-10 minutes to clear solo. If we're talking about 1 solo elfshade, it could be mountkilled(legit) in less than two minutes.

Your numbers are so off that what you say carries no merit.

As for how mobs shouldnt drop reagents, I admit i'd enjoy hearing you whine when reagent prices skyrocket and you can't use your gold to buy them anymore because everything drops gold, thus making it worthless.

I do not feel making a post like this is beneficial to the community when you do not offer your own input or a way to correctly fix these issues on hand.

This is a suggestion forum and you suggested nothing. Move along.

[rschanke]

I do not feel making a post like this is beneficial to the community when you do not offer your own input or a way to correctly fix these issues on hand.

This is a suggestion forum and you suggested nothing. Move along.

I may not have suggested anything, but I demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about in terms of pve. This makes the usefulness of any suggestions you make on the matter very questionable.

If you can't see a problem with basing your arguments on something that is false, you have no business in the suggestions forum.

[CattBoy]

I may not have suggested anything, but I demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about in terms of pve. This makes the usefulness of any suggestions you make on the matter very questionable.

If you can't see a problem with basing your argumentdetail-oriented informations on something that is false, you have no business in the suggestions forum.

I apologize that I used elf-shades as an example and that is the only case you were able to relate to (even with multiple examples provided). Possibly try killing other monsters in the game then come back with some detail-oriented information. Please post it here and let us debate if its a hit or a miss, then maybe your own ambitions might find there way into the game.

Until then I would like to see how the rest of the DFO community views the topic and have their own voices heard by AV. Thanks for the input!

[r0ke]

this has been mentioned twice a day for the past month in posts and threads upon this forum.

The only thing you mentioned new in this thread are the current "hot" mobs everybody is exploiting or bugging out.

gj.

[rschanke]

I apologize that I used elf-shades as an example and that is the only case you were able to relate to (even with multiple examples provided). Possibly try killing other monsters in the game then come back with some detail-oriented information. Please post it here and let us debate if its a hit or a miss, then maybe your own ambitions might find there way into the game.

Until then I would like to see how the rest of the DFO community views the topic and have their own voices heard by AV. Thanks for the input!

I could just as easily point out that Shadow Knights, Golems, Earth Elementals and Deathless Mages are all very much worth the while and can be killed perfectly legit solo in a feasible time frame(Although SK's drops are admittedly less useful since the durability patch, and Golems need to be perched).

Many of the points you brought up are valid concerns, and I don't think anyone disagrees that the ability to get inside the world needs to be fixed, and that it is a requirement before health can be lowered.

Menhir Sentinel is a mob I haven't personally spent much time with, but I do know about a 4-sentinel spawn on cairn that can be done with 2 players(2 because you need one person to lure away 2 other mobs nearby - the actual killing takes 1). This takes a while, but nowhere near the hour you speak of.

That said, I do agree that there are mobs in the game that are broken(Fire Elementals come to mind - there is little to no reason to kill them at this time). Your thread isn't entirely without value, but if you want to make valid arguments in an attempt to fix what is, admittedly, a flawed PvE system, you should attempt to provide better examples.

[Mutant Messiah]

AV has a very "unique" and "ground-breaking" way of increasing mob difficulty...

Harder mobs = More health and More Dps!

If you are not intelligent enough to detect my sarcasm, I'd like to point out that EVERY other mmo uses this same method.

The difference we see in Darkfall pve vs. other games is just that there is no traditional "taunt" or "agro" mechanic. This does not mean the game has better AI than other games. It simply means that AV wanted a revolutionary pve experience where you wouldn't have to settle for smarter mobs, you can just exploit the hell out of a bunch of downsyndromized sub-par mobs with a dick-ton of health and damage output.

AV can fix our game by looking at pve AI tweaks, preventing the option to log on into objects and allowing mobs to drop multiple damaged armor pieces
from one mob.

[BodyCount]

AV PLEASE HIRE THIS GUY!!! i have been saying this to all my friends for weeks! CattBOY is my new favorite guy =)

and he is right if u dont fix it your game will go down in history and if i had a gamebox for the game I'd place it next to AOC & Archlord for biggest failures.

[Wulfyn]

You have some very good ideas here, in particular to increase durability and to generally make items easier to get hold of. I feel that durability should be scaled with the intelligence/evil-ego of the mob. A goblin might run around with a nearly broken axe, but is a deathless mage going to wear shabby ripped up robes? Is a black knight going to wear greaves that are about to rust off his arm? Clever mobs should take care of their gear too, espcially the more valuable ones.

This will not have an adverse affect on crafters, as most of them will concentrate on the normal range of gear, r0-r40 stuff, and armour up to bone/scale. There will still be a market for these as mobs that drop this will generally not take such good care of the more crappy gear. Items of r50+, and plate or better armour should be in good condition, which will make these mobs worthwhile fighting for the cool stuff. The people who can make this stuff can still earn a living at the lower end competing with the masses (but with slightly better items with their higher skills), but can also be a secure and dependable method of secure the goods.


However I definitely disagree with adding in more money as a sole way of fixing the grind. Money has a variable worth, as all it is is a way of making trading other goods easier. Take this example where people need to buy wood and iron to make 'stuff':


Scenario 1:
There is 100,000 wood and 20,000 iron in the world at this time. The people that want to buy these items have farmed mobs and between them have 1,000,000 gold.

Scenario 2:
There is 100,000 wood and 20,000 iron in the world at this time. The people that want to buy these items have farmed mobs and between them have 3,000,000 gold.


In scenario 2, the situation where more gold is pumped into the game with no other balancing forces, the price of wood and iron will raise. This is because there is competition for resources, and more gold to spend. As the price of the raw materials rise so does the price of the crafted items. This will cause inflation, and thus actually hurt people trying to buy items. Whether the inflation of the price matches the extra gold would remain to be seen (there are natural caps due to npc vendors for example) as economics can be a fickle subject.


However by keeping the gold drops the same, but allowing junk items to be salvaged into raw materials we enter a thrid scenario.

Scenario 3:
There is 150,000 wood and 30,000 iron in the world at this time. The people that want to buy these items have farmed mobs and between them have 1,000,000 gold.


Here the greater abundance of the raw materials will cause the price of the raw materials to drop. This is similar to how the banning of macro-archery has caused the drop in demand for arrows, and thus the surplus of wood and iron that has caused arrows to drop from around 1.3g to 0.9g and wood to drop from 7.5g to 6.5g. The key is not just that there are more raw materials, but that the materials can be gained through a different route - that of killing mobs. This will cause a much greater surplus of raw materials than just putting a few more trees about the place.


Something needs to be done, but please don't just ramp up the money drops!

[crimsom]

big thing is they need more random magic item drops this is why blizzard succeeds in pve because people love fishing... for items.

[CattBoy]

...
Something needs to be done, but please don't just ramp up the money drops!

Well thought out, well said, great examples. Apparently someone paid attention in economics class ha. I would say yes some of my points are flawed, but up for critiquing.

Maybe not ramp up the current money drops, but tweaking them to offer more valuable items, not minimize their current 'random' loot. Have them drop various item types, not just 1 of these and always only 1, never more, never less.

Even dropping more crafter-related items, or allow crafters to create their own tools? How can a crafter make the BEST BOW in the game, but they don't know how to make the tools to make that best bow? Seems a little flawed. But that's another discussion.


Clever mobs should take care of their gear too, especially the more valuable ones.

I like this alot, since AV was trying to take their game off the beaten path of normal monster MMO style by introducing their own version of MOB AI (Attack the weakest/quickest to kill?). If these monsters are suppose to be "smarter" I should not see a Minotaur King carrying a 2handed axe that will break upon impact.

[bongloads]

really hoping this get's addressed in the mon/tues patch (yesterday:()

[theguruofreason]

No complaining about the economy allowed in a game around than 2 months old.

/thread

[bongloads]

Patch this please.

[furnaps]

In the games current state mob loot sucks period.. AV why do you think so many people resort to bugging out mobs or exploiting walls to kill mobs?? Because killing them legit is a waste of time.

Untill the mob drops are increased people are going to continue to exploit and AV will continue to ban and eventually there will be no one playing the game..

Just increase the drops and then ban people if they are still exploiting..

I'm getting sick of farming mobs for skill ups because really thats all you get out of it with the loot they drop.

I dont see how a mob that takes 5 people to kill legit in a reasonable amount of time can only drop like 100g thats 100g your getting every 5 kills so in a group of five people you have to kill 50 mobs to make 1,000g if my math is rite ( I do suck at math so sorry if im wrong ) And thats not even factoring in the amount of time it will take to kill those 50 mobs :bang:


And I dont even want to talk about how many regents mobs drop geesh NEVER try to kill hard mob with magic unless your only doing it for the skill ups because they dont drop many regs.. I personally think caster mobs should drop some more regs...


I will admit not all mobs drop crappy loot but most of them do, which leads to the good mobs being camped or exploited all the time..

A few mobs that seem to drop decent loot are akathars, Orc acolytes, deathless mages (still think there alittle to hard to kill for the loot though ), earth elementals, trolls, bears, and that might be it.. And I actually think these mobs could use to drop alittle more loot.

[HeliosNorlund]

risk vs reward have to changed also

easy gold with soloable mobs + quest rewards
near startertowns and guard towers

vs

medium hard mobs hard to kill and gold/loot/reagentz per hour is slower
at the unsave areas far away from starter town

thats wrong

if u wana attract people go away from savety to be possible pvp target u need to give the something to make the risk worth

solution make medium hard mobs easyer to kill and even add soloable mob content in the unsave pvp areas that drops better than near starter cities

better add only a few spawns but with a lot monsters so that places are pvp hotspots

just 100 mobspawn with like 3 mobs is bullshit then we still have no pvp about control the mabspawns

[bongloads]

come on aventurine... read this thread

[bongloads]

how the fuck is this thread not always in the the top 3 on suggestion page.

[freeze_SD]

how the fuck is this thread not always in the the top 3 on suggestion page.

Dont know :rolleyes:

[Bomanz]

/signed

AV, the shitty PvE is ruining your game.

Make mobs smarter, and FAR less hitpoints (anything more than easy mobs)

[Az_]

Qft.

It is imho even easier:

Add a 0 to every gold drop.

Kobolds old = 5 gold
Kobolds new = 50 gold

GG

[bongloads]

Qft.

It is imho even easier:

Add a 0 to every gold drop.

Kobolds old = 5 gold
Kobolds new = 50 gold

GG

way too much money, not enough reagents.

mobs really need to drop more reagents, a few should drop iron (golems?!?), and they need to drop a piece of armor as often as they drop a weapon (always).

[Az_]

way too much money, not enough reagents.

mobs really need to drop more reagents, a few should drop iron (golems?!?), and they need to drop a piece of armor as often as they drop a weapon (always).

Too much money? The money will be spent! 1 ash is 4 gold, 50 gold would equal 12 ash.

You forget one thing: More gold means, people will endure the newbie pks. People will fight about spawn grounds etc.

The game is about pvp, unrestricted pvp, ressources need to be cheap to get.

Look at UO. It worked there. And even while a "Slime" dropped over 100 gold, and you could kill 1 with one hit (Regs and armor were even cheaper than in DF), STILL people were complaining about Pks....and they were quitting.

High end players will fight for dominance, equipment and gold should be just an anoyance.

[CattBoy]

how the fuck is this thread not always in the the top 3 on suggestion page.

When people post silly things like this.

Qft.

It is imho even easier:

Add a 0 to every gold drop.

Kobolds old = 5 gold
Kobolds new = 50 gold

GG


This is not a solution to the problem. This would just inflate the economy with to much gold and force the prices of everything else to fall since everyone would be a millionaire.

Tweaking all of the actual loot dropped would have a better impact than simply increasing one. Its an all or nothing fix, you cant just change one bi factor without hurting the others.

[Bink]

crafters are still very useful, even if mobs dropped 1 piece of armor each kill. the durability's crap but at least it's something to keep you farming


I think they went about mob durability drops in a bad way.

Personally, I think they simply shoulda done something like


Mob item is FULL durability but the max durability is less than what crafted can (IE mob loot has the durability a crafter with NO trueforge would make, trueforge should be what separates the two schools of loot)

[ZeroCool]

i thought the whole point of DF was more emphasis on PvP.. PvE wasnt supposed to be advocated cause them people would just grind them all day like any other mmo

[Amishh]

yeah im gonna mine in city until PvE is fixed. The loot should be 5x better on most of the mobs, some need even more, some not so ( goblins loot is okay )

[Oak]

i thought the whole point of DF was more emphasis on PvP.. PvE wasnt supposed to be advocated cause them people would just grind them all day like any other mmo[/SIZE]

PvE is meant to drive PvP by luring people out in search of riches, then fights break out over the most lucrative spots etc. Right now there is sod all worth fighting for.

[Emitai]

the game economie is so fuck now with all those mobs exploit
gold loose value everyday

[fnordcircle]

Too much money? The money will be spent! 1 ash is 4 gold, 50 gold would equal 12 ash.


Learn some basic economics. Inflation reduces the value of money meaning it takes more money to buy something. 1 ash would eventually become 40 gold.

The price of reagents is fine. The amount of gold from mobs is fine. The amount of loot and reagents they drop is fine. The problem with mobs is the time it takes to kill a mob that drops reagents. It's too tedious.

Tedium is not a good gameplay mechanism.

[empa]

Back to full durabillity

Make more special items like black knight.

Make them have diferent stats too. and make em drop more than 1 piece takes about 3 guys to kill one relatively easy and then you gotta kill like 5 of em so everybody's happy.

[Ra1Lz]

Stop forcing players to exploit mobs then punishing them because you failed to implement PVE content. On a side node take a zero tolerance stance on actual hackers - stop selling banning\selling them accounts to turn a quick profit. Start permanent banning their names \ ccs \ addresses \ IPs - whatever else can be done from allowing them to continue to hack \ ban \ buy (your largest source of new game sales I am sure) \ rense repeat.

[keeperofstars]

For me make the durability a bit better, should be in the 30% range on durability of an item, maybe in the 30%-50% range. However all mobs should have some armor drop. No shields don't count. Also should get a chance to get a few pieces of armor.
So you kill a skeleton knight, he should be wearing 2-3 pieces of armor, not a random chance at 1 piece.

Same for other mobs seems only 1 piece of armor is on the loot table. I think 2 is the best I have ever gotten. If I just spent 20 minutes killing a mob it best of had some nice fucking armor to remove the damage it was.

I agree though the biggest problem is you either spend an hour "exploit" farming a good mob or you send a group of 6 to farm for key drops cause all other loot is pointless.

I mean I go out use skill, have grinded high skill levels, and use lots of resources to kill a mob and I get 150 gold, a weapon, usually a shield, and maybe a piece of armor, oh and a laughable amount of reagents.
Burn through my expensive gear full plate which costs 1k+ to make. Usually the amount of damage my gear takes costs more then what I make. And I have maintenance skill.

Pve needs to be more rewarding outside of exploiting the top end mobs.
Needs much more armor drop from mobs so you can work your way up.

Go kill a few skeletons for some "chain like armor" then use that to allow you to kill mercians or such which drop banded, and use it to take on the orks which drop scale. Granted it is all around 30% durability and will break often, but you can then take the money you made and pay the crafter well for his double durability armor he crafted with his high wisdom and trueforge on it.

But if you have a really bad night it's ok you just go farm some mobs for gear and move on.
I hate crafting but DF makes you take it so you can be geared up. Otherwise you have to exploit for gear, or try and scrap enough gold to buy it.