Something all of you need to read...

[Milo Hobgoblin]

I think this hit the nail on the head.. and while Im sure many of you will claim its fake, made up.. bullshit.. etc.. I wont argue either way.The point is the sprit of the story and how many business owners some of you lazy, unambitious, self entitled fucks think "stole it", really feel about your "Change"

If I was back in the fitness industry running my gyms again.. Id pretty much feel the same way right about now. (This letter is a perfect example of why I sold my portion and left it.. whats hitting some of you now.. hit us in Southern California years ago.. with its extremely progressive taxation).

A letter from the Boss:

To All My Valued Employees,

There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscap e in this country.

However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests.

First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is a Back Story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. You've seen my big home at last years Christmas party. I'm sure; all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.

However, what you don't see is the BACK STORY :

I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.

My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.

Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the discount store extracting any clothing item that didn't look like it was birthed in the 70's. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, someday, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.

So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacations... you never realize the Back Story and the sacrifices I've made.

Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bailout all the people who didn't. The people that over spent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for.

Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds.

Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why:

I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes.. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my "stimulus" check was? Zero. Nada. Zilch.

The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country.

The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? That's nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.

Here is what many of you don't understand ... to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs th e economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.

When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.

So where am I going with all this?

It's quite simple.

If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I'll fire you and your coworkers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem any more.

Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed.

So, if you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about..

Signed, THE BOSS

[Killuminati]

way too long, fuck you.

[Honest Bill]

So long, that fucking would be too good for you

[Skyborn]

I love it.

[fermer101]

<3

[Targuil]

I fucking read it. Now, can I haz 50% of your paycheck and a cookie?

[Forgin]

I read the first few paragraphs and I sounded like bullshit

[alfaroverall]

Good read. Odd, though, that trickle down economics (which this guy is basically talking about, in some sense, with his "if you didn't take away my $300k I'd hire new employees and give raises" statement and others) doesn't really seem to "trickle down" in practice...is this guy the outlier, perhaps?

I don't favor Obama's way of doing things either but it's just interesting to see things in this light.

Also, link please.

[Milo Hobgoblin]

Good read. Odd, though, that trickle down economics (which this guy is basically talking about, in some sense, with his "if you didn't take away my $300k I'd hire new employees and give raises" statement and others) doesn't really seem to "trickle down" in practice...is this guy the outlier, perhaps?

I don't favor Obama's way of doing things either but it's just interesting to see things in this light.

Also, link please.

Trickle down economics which really started a few years after Reagan took office made more millionaires, a larger middle class and more opportunities for entrepeneurship than any civilization in any period of history.

How can ANY of you deny the standard of living that the vast majority of us enjoyed over the last 25-28 years?

THAT was the result of "trickle down" economics.

I dont have a link.. sorry. Thats why I cant defend the legitimacy of it.. only the sprit of the letter.

[The Dark Zealot]

I could only wish to have even close to the amount of determination of that man has, even if he isnt real

[Teutates]

We all know he sucks.

[Milo Hobgoblin]

I could only wish to have even close to the amount of determination of that man has, even if he isnt real

Think about this.. if he and guys like him simply choose to stop for the reasons he outlined.. imagine the consequences.

By 28 I was part owner of 3 gyms .. we employed over 200 people half of those full time. I worked 6 days a week 12-15 hours/day in the beginning..


In todays economy with our current political landscape.. NO FUCKING WAY Id do that again.. especially in California..

[Azra'eil]

Small Biz<3

[Mephiston]

Really like the message... I agree that welfare should be struck down in it's majority, There is no reason a HEALTHY person gets paid for doing nothing. If you can't support that many kids, don't make them.

I agree with that message,

Nice read!

[Villa]

Way tl;dr
Seriously, just summarise it next time, nob.

[Milo Hobgoblin]

Way tl;dr
Seriously, just summarise it next time, nob.

LOL. pop a ritalin and read it. I know you'll like it.

[ErileMatan]

My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed.

Yea right, what fat lying turd.
As if he had no idea this was going to happen from the begining.
No large companies have more tax issues to deal with, oh really?
Fixed for:

My motivation to THINK BIG (I'll have that business ty), TAKE THE MONEY, RUN!

[DocGonzo]

Trickle down economics which really started a few years after Reagan took office made more millionaires, a larger middle class and more opportunities for entrepeneurship than any civilization in any period of history.

How can ANY of you deny the standard of living that the vast majority of us enjoyed over the last 25-28 years?

THAT was the result of "trickle down" economics.

I dont have a link.. sorry. Thats why I cant defend the legitimacy of it.. only the sprit of the letter.

omfg...defending trickle down supply siders?

ok...let's have a look at the original article for a second...

did the guy personally make over 250k? if so, his personal taxes will go up from 36-39% ...10 points UNDER what it was during Reagan

and guess what, his business taxes will be cut under the proposed budget as well!!! (small businesses...37? of the stim bill and 33% of the budget are tax cuts, for those under 250k and ALL small businesses)

so right there with empirical prima facia evidence...the guy is full of shit and screaming chicken little when no sky is falling

and that's not even counting what was mentioned previously about the dubious claim where it concerns employee raises (yeah right) or new hiring (possible if profitable to the owner)

imo this sounds like just another butt hurt GOP type who is screaming before even getting "hurt"

could just be me...

[ErileMatan]

Think about this.. if he and guys like him simply choose to stop for the reasons he outlined.. imagine the consequences.

By 28 I was part owner of 3 gyms .. we employed over 200 people half of those full time. I worked 6 days a week 12-15 hours/day in the beginning..


In todays economy with our current political landscape.. NO FUCKING WAY Id do that again.. especially in California..

Gotta think big Milo...ya suuure doo!

[DocGonzo]

Gotta think big Milo...ya suuure doo!

hey now, he will be very happy in his new job for Burger King instead!!

spare me the false indignation and pitiful "atlas shrugged" wanna be act

[PainlessDeath]

By 28 I was part owner of 3 gyms .. we employed over 200 people half of those full time. I worked 6 days a week 12-15 hours/day in the beginning..


by the time I was 30; I owned 9 rental properties (81 units), worked 5 hrs a day, had 3 "employees", made $100k+ a year and because of tax loopholes never paid a dime in state or federal taxes

If I can borrow one of Doc's lines:

learn2smallbusiness noob fucktard

[ErileMatan]

omfg...defending trickle down supply siders?

ok...let's have a look at the original article for a second...

did the guy personally make over 250k? if so, his personal taxes will go up from 36-39% ...10 points UNDER what it was during Reagan

and guess what, his business taxes will be cut under the proposed budget as well!!! (small businesses...37? of the stim bill and 33% of the budget are tax cuts, for those under 250k and ALL small businesses)

so right there with empirical prima facia evidence...the guy is full of shit and screaming chicken little when no sky is falling

and that's not even counting what was mentioned previously about the dubious claim where it concerns employee raises (yeah right) or new hiring (possible if profitable to the owner)

imo this sounds like just another butt hurt GOP type who is screaming before even getting "hurt"

could just be me...

/Signed,
No it's not just you.

[Killuminati]

By the time I was 43 I had owned five blow up dolls.

[ErileMatan]

by the time I was 30; I owned 9 rental properties (81 units), worked 5 hrs a day, had 3 "employees", made $100k+ a year and because of tax loopholes never paid a dime in state or federal taxes

If I can borrow one of Doc's lines:

learn2smallbusiness noob fucktard

/Signed again.

[Skyborn]

By the time I was 43 I had owned five blow up dolls.

This is almost sig worthy.

[PainlessDeath]

By the time I was 43 I had owned five blow up dolls.

Damn someone tried to get me to invest in that. Missed opportunity!!

[Milo Hobgoblin]

omfg...defending trickle down supply siders?

ok...let's have a look at the original article for a second...

did the guy personally make over 250k? if so, his personal taxes will go up from 36-39% ...10 points UNDER what it was during Reagan

and guess what, his business taxes will be cut under the proposed budget as well!!! (small businesses...37? of the stim bill and 33% of the budget are tax cuts, for those under 250k and ALL small businesses)

so right there with empirical prima facia evidence...the guy is full of shit and screaming chicken little when no sky is falling

and that's not even counting what was mentioned previously about the dubious claim where it concerns employee raises (yeah right) or new hiring (possible if profitable to the owner)

imo this sounds like just another butt hurt GOP type who is screaming before even getting "hurt"

could just be me...

LOL.. I will always defend supply side trickle down economics..

and bitching AFTER you get hurt does no good. Im guessing you've never owned a business? (or at least one that employed more than a few people?)

as far as painless death

by the time I was 30; I owned 9 rental properties (81 units), worked 5 hrs a day, had 3 "employees", made $100k+ a year and because of tax loopholes never paid a dime in state or federal taxes

If I can borrow one of Doc's lines:

learn2smallbusiness noob fucktard

Thats really respectable.. but 200 employees and three locations is hardly a "small" business. Without going into too much detail.. hiding assets with 3 very large public locations isnt a simple trick of the hat.

Because of the local governments we were visited quite frequently... the city one of our locations was in now pays the HIGHEST sales taxes in the US... so you can only imagine how often they had their hand in the till for every perfit fee, fine an dtax they could imagine up.

[Justinian]

wasn't something like this just posted a week ago?

[Paganini]

I read it... and all I have to say is that the author should probably read some history and figure out for himself why trickle down economics is bullshit

[DocGonzo]

for Milo....i owned my own business for 9 years..did pretty well with it, not a lot of employees and those were seasonal, but my numbers were about what your quoted guy was

as for "always defending supply side trickle down"...well, that pretty much ends the conversation, i try not to engage with the hopelessly delusional...i'm old enough to remember the late 70's when the WSJ guys started selling the whole supply side bullshit...30 years later we see where the "gordon gecko" ethic has gotten U.S.

take a look at the nation's balance sheet, while you are at it, point out to me our manufacturing base?

both of those were fucking ruined by "supply side" bullshit, there's more...but if you can't see that the equation requires both supply AND demand, then i just can't help you...

[Marrik]

wtf is wrong with you dumbasses that you cant read a few paragraphs? why the fuck do you frequent a message board if youre too stupid or have too severe of ADHD to read?

[Slade Trillgon]

Trickle down economics which really started a few years after Reagan took office made more millionaires, a larger middle class and more opportunities for entrepeneurship than any civilization in any period of history.

How can ANY of you deny the standard of living that the vast majority of us enjoyed over the last 25-28 years?

THAT was the result of "trickle down" economics.

I dont have a link.. sorry. Thats why I cant defend the legitimacy of it.. only the sprit of the letter.

Trickle Down Economics 25+ years ----> Today :rolleyes:


Slade

[Qikdraw]

wtf is wrong with you dumbasses that you cant read a few paragraphs? why the fuck do you frequent a message board if youre too stupid or have too severe of ADHD to read?

Uhmmm... Bacon?

[Milo Hobgoblin]

for Milo....i owned my own business for 9 years..did pretty well with it, not a lot of employees and those were seasonal, but my numbers were about what your quoted guy was

as for "always defending supply side trickle down"...well, that pretty much ends the conversation, i try not to engage with the hopelessly delusional...i'm old enough to remember the late 70's when the WSJ guys started selling the whole supply side bullshit...30 years later we see where the "gordon gecko" ethic has gotten U.S.

take a look at the nation's balance sheet, while you are at it, point out to me our manufacturing base?

both of those were fucking ruined by "supply side" bullshit, there's more...but if you can't see that the equation requires both supply AND demand, then i just can't help you...

You are using an example of a flaw in an otherwise great system that made a hell of a lot of people a lot of money, created a huge middle class and an almost non existant poverty class. Not REAL poverty.. not this.. I cant afford a cel or new dubs crap some of the forumfallers think is poverty.

We dont have people starving to death.. and only a miniscule percentage living in hovels or home made shacks and of those some are their by choice or mental illness... again still being a very miniscule percentage.

I know you have this "wait and see" attitude and some faith in this administration that I dont comprehend. But mark my words.. we will ALL have less in 4 to 8 years because of Obamas fiscal policies... all so those who do nothing, produce nothing and create nothing can have a little more that they will simply squander.

I know you all think Im a prick and some kind of greedy bastard.. I guess I just have higher expectations for American citizens than accepting this pseudo-socialist crap comin down the pike..

what I also dont get is that because I support a particular economic principle.. that people assume I some sort of Retarded Republican.. or Bushite.. while I support the "ideal" of Republican economics and a very libertarian social policy.. I know the GOP abused and corrupted that system and they had to fall. I just feel the pendulum swung too far and what we have now is a road to mediocrity for all of us.

Doc I respect your ideas.. and your posts.. even when I dont agree with you. But if you look at the country as a whole from the early 80's on.. entire generations of ambitious people who otherwise had little opportunity in life made a lot of money and created A LOT of jobs .. and that had a lot to do with supply side theory... not increasing regulation and redistributing wealth.

[DocGonzo]

You are using an example of a flaw in an otherwise great system that made a hell of a lot of people a lot of money, created a huge middle class and an almost non existant poverty class. Not REAL poverty.. not this.. I cant afford a cel or new dubs crap some of the forumfallers think is poverty.

We dont have people starving to death.. and only a miniscule percentage living in hovels or home made shacks and of those some are their by choice or mental illness... again still being a very miniscule percentage.

I know you have this "wait and see" attitude and some faith in this administration that I dont comprehend. But mark my words.. we will ALL have less in 4 to 8 years because of Obamas fiscal policies... all so those who do nothing, produce nothing and create nothing can have a little more that they will simply squander.

I know you all think Im a prick and some kind of greedy bastard.. I guess I just have higher expectations for American citizens than accepting this pseudo-socialist crap comin down the pike..

what I also dont get is that because I support a particular economic principle.. that people assume I some sort of Retarded Republican.. or Bushite.. while I support the "ideal" of Republican economics and a very libertarian social policy.. I know the GOP abused and corrupted that system and they had to fall. I just feel the pendulum swung too far and what we have now is a road to mediocrity for all of us.

Doc I respect your ideas.. and your posts.. even when I dont agree with you. But if you look at the country as a whole from the early 80's on.. entire generations of ambitious people who otherwise had little opportunity in life made a lot of money and created A LOT of jobs .. and that had a lot to do with supply side theory... not increasing regulation and redistributing wealth.

Milo..i'm not dissin' you here, if so you would seriously know it, and i would ignore the vast majority of your typing...fair enough?

but i see the last 30 years very differently than you do

before Reagan, we were the manufacturing and scientific powerhouse of the world, bar none...our developments form various forms of R&D built this country, and even before the supply siders took over...all those things you said were even more true about our standard of living

check for yourself, from a source you trust...our national standards have gone DOWN on average since 1979 when the dollars are adjusted and the price index is factored in...down significantly

this is due to the supply side mantra that the only thing that matters is growth at the end of this quarter/month...at all costs

this turned off R&D, no money being spent, as well as the 80's hostile take overs that decimated our manufacturing base, cut it into pieces and sold it over seas...we are still dealing with the ripple effects of that (GM anyone?)

with those jobs gone, how do you employ the middle class?

imo, the entire philosophy is flawed, it was designed by a handful of young turks who meant it solely for those sharks who wanted to score some quick cash, but it has NO benefits for long term and sustainable growth of industry

the last 30 years in the U.S. are proof of that, imo....check what i said to above and see where that takes you

now, i don't fault anyone for wanting more of what benefitted them personally, but my thinking is that we need what is going to benefit ALL of us...as you might surmise i'm more of the "rising tide" kind of guy rather than the "trickle down" school...historically it works better (scope US numbers from 1949-79 for verification)...those 30 years were where the real growth happened and what created our middle class, the last 30 has been systematically tearing it down

as for the current admin...all i have said is the same thing i said for W his first few months...give the guy a chance and see what he does....so far i think Barry has done better than W, but there are still a lot of things i'm ambivalent about and a few where i completely disagree with the administration....so we will see, all i care about are the results

[Milo Hobgoblin]

I really do hope you're right and Im wrong.

I guess I disagree with the causes leading to the downfall of our manufacturing base.. I would more likely point that to greedy and lazy unions and their employees who took extreme advantage of their power to produce inferior products at wages they didnt deserve.

I would agree with the decline in R&D.. but point that to a more of an issue of global competition for that specific market... not necessarily shutting it off for the bottom line... AND to an educational system that pushes out liberal arts majors in droves while making it increasingly harder to get a hard science degree due to never ending changes and additons to course materials and campus dogma.

We graduate 50k engineers a year.. China graduates 500k... (very rough numbers sorry). That has nothing to do with economics and eveything to do with culture. I know kids who wont touch a hard science degree with a ten foot pole because they know getting outsourced constantly is a future they dont want...

You make some good points.. I will look at trusted sources and see for myself. Maybe I look at the last 30 years through rosy colored goggles.. But I have to spread the blame around.. GM cut their own throat .. they KNEW what was coming and refused to retool.. and thats a direct result of union strangleholds.

Thanks for the reply.. food for thought.

[DocGonzo]

I really do hope you're right and Im wrong.

I guess I disagree with the causes leading to the downfall of our manufacturing base.. I would more likely point that to greedy and lazy unions and their employees who took extreme advantage of their power to produce inferior products at wages they didnt deserve.

I would agree with the decline in R&D.. but point that to a more of an issue of global competition for that specific market... not necessarily shutting it off for the bottom line... AND to an educational system that pushes out liberal arts majors in droves while making it increasingly harder to get a hard science degree due to never ending changes and additons to course materials and campus dogma.

We graduate 50k engineers a year.. China graduates 500k... (very rough numbers sorry). That has nothing to do with economics and eveything to do with culture. I know kids who wont touch a hard science degree with a ten foot pole because they know getting outsourced constantly is a future they dont want...

You make some good points.. I will look at trusted sources and see for myself. Maybe I look at the last 30 years through rosy colored goggles.. But I have to spread the blame around.. GM cut their own throat .. they KNEW what was coming and refused to retool.. and thats a direct result of union strangleholds.

Thanks for the reply.. food for thought.

no worries, i'm always up for some sane discourse...

i know many on your side of the argument like to blame the unions, but the reality fo the situation belies that canard...Ford was very profitable with their F-150 trucks selling like hotcakes, even with their union obligations (which they as management signed off on as well, remember)...it wasn't until those trucks lost popularity that their numbers declined to the point of panic...so i agree with you that the company itself screwed the pooch there...it falls back on R&D...look at what the carmakers used to spend on it pre-1980, and then watch that number drop like a rock, in direct proportion to loss of market share, i might add

same for all of our manufacturing that wasn't given the hostile take over/cut up and sold as parts treatment during the 80s....that made a shit ton of short term money for those brokering the deals, but killed those jobs, towns and cities off and they never recovered since no new manufacturing took it's place the way it did from 49-79

as for the engineers...you have a solid point, and it is cultural...

instead of producing scientists and engineers, our kids have been getting MBAs and going into finance/banking...why you ask?

same reason we are short of teachers and nurses...it doesn't pay as well

yet without engineers, no new innovations happen, without great teachers...you get not so great students

this negative feedback has been looping for 30 years, a downward spiral for the very engine that built our economy...now that engine is firing on only 2 cylinders out of 8...check today's numbers for yourself

side note...never have i said anything positive about "redistributing wealth", i do favor progressive taxation as did Jefferson and Teddy Roosevelt, among others...not for redistribution but for paying the bills

as for "redistribution"...this one will burn your shorts...check the numbers for ALL of Welfare combined from the beginning to now and compare that to ONE YEAR of total corporate welfare9 make sure you include agribusiness)...then tell me who the culprit is for wealth distribution under supply side economics...you'll be surprised

[Milo Hobgoblin]

heh.. kind of ironic I just found this...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Obama-promises-major-apf-15039606.html?.v=3

I believe it is not in our character, American character, to follow -- but to lead. And it is time for us to lead once again. I am here today to set this goal: we will devote more than 3 percent of our gross domestic product to research and development," Obama said in a speech at the annual meeting of the National Academy of Sciences.

That 3 percent would amount to about $420 billion.

[alfaroverall]

Trickle down economics which really started a few years after Reagan took office made more millionaires, a larger middle class and more opportunities for entrepeneurship than any civilization in any period of history.

How can ANY of you deny the standard of living that the vast majority of us enjoyed over the last 25-28 years?

THAT was the result of "trickle down" economics.

I dont have a link.. sorry. Thats why I cant defend the legitimacy of it.. only the sprit of the letter.
Perhaps. But then why did it later seem to stop "trickling down" as time went by?

The theory obviously makes sense; I would never contest it. But that doesn't make it correct in practice.

I see Doc basically got to this in more depth and more intellect before I got here...

[Tamural]

I wonder why we dumped so much money into failing businesses that are in debt, than into small businesses that have almost none?

Wouldn't the news coverage on dumping the money into small businesses be enough to cause people to purchase cars from those small businesses? Perhaps setting up a new car dealership would have been wiser than trying to keep an old one alive?

I know nothing of economics, so don't mind me ignorance.

[Zadok]

use the search you newbie OP. I posted the same fucking thing 2 months ago.

[Death's Chill]

He gave up a quarter of his life to work and sacrifice, dedicated entirely to making his company strong and successful.

Obviously he deserves to have half of everything he earns taken from him. It's only fair!

Fuck the motherfucking government, AND ANYONE who supports the way it is now. FUCK!

Move to Wyoming. At the very fucking least they don't have state taxes.

[Poacher]

Damn liberals (I seem to be saying this a lot lately), they really gotta just let these welfare leechers die, the country will be better for it.

[Silverhandorder]

I am not really for supply side because that is a too simple an explanation on it's own. In order for supply side to work, in a way that will benefit the country in long term, we need flexible wages and zero inflation. Right now both are centrally managed by our government. While that remains supply side can not work.

Actually a progressive argument has some credibility if we abolish minimum wage and stop regulating interest rates.

[Badem]

fuck it jsut let the Swine fulu rage out of control and decimate teh population, then we dont have to worry about taxes and shit as we revert back to an Agrarian society

[5%Luck]

This guy is some ones boss? I mean thats like being employed by Eric Cartman!

Respect My athoritiiiii

Realy what we have in the US is a bunch of people who not even by greeed its wore than that just sheer joy in saying see its my power if ya suck my cock and give the dog a red rocket I wont up your rent past the means I know you have.

Because I pay you!

These same people love conflict because it means you the middle class will have to BEG.

I know there are some decent people out there who run businesses and are philanthropic but honestly how much philanthropy do you think is out there?\\


Altruism? .......NOT!

It is just simple if you dont want to do whats right you must be punished. Just like at home with ma or in school with principle skiner. It is retarded to think those few truly philanthropic business owners whe are actualy running a busness for "everyone" involved have to be punished along with the rest of this rabble but its very hard to work this on a case by case basis.

[Silverhandorder]

This guy is some ones boss? I mean thats like being employed by Eric Cartman!

Respect My athoritiiiii

Realy what we have in the US is a bunch of people who not even by greeed its wore than that just sheer joy in saying see its my power if ya suck my cock and give the dog a red rocket I wont up your rent past the means I know you have.

Because I pay you!

These same people love conflict because it means you the middle class will have to BEG.

I know there are some decent people out there who run businesses and are philanthropic but honestly how much philanthropy do you think is out there?\\


Altruism? .......NOT!

It is just simple if you dont want to do whats right you must be punished. Just like at home with ma or in school with principle skiner. It is retarded to think those few truly philanthropic business owners whe are actualy running a busness for "everyone" involved have to be punished along with the rest of this rabble but its very hard to work this on a case by case basis.

Nice troll.

[Signus]

Someone who actually "gets it".

It is not the government's job to babysit people. It is not the government's job to run the economy. Leave that to the economists. Allow people to fail, instead of ... dare I say it, making America carebear, where there is no risk, just reward. You spend all your money, get fired, don't worry, we'll send you free checks. You think that's going to encourage people to work?

[jonyak]

/yawn.

[Condenmed]

Guess who pays the corporate taxes. It isn't the corporation it is the consumer that pays the taxes. The corporation has goods and/or serves they proved for the consumer. They apply the taxes to the goods and/or serves.

In 1974 Richard Nixon finished take the U.S. off the gold standard. And how credit became so easy and to abundant. It lead to inflation of prices

You can keep your Kaynes's economics.
I will take Mises's economics.

[Badem]

Guess who pays the corporate taxes. It isn't the corporation it is the consumer that pays the taxes. The corporation has goods and/or serves they proved for the consumer. They apply the taxes to the goods and/or serves.

In 1974 Richard Nixon finished take the U.S. off the gold standard. And how credit became so easy and to abundant. It lead to inflation of prices

You can keep your Kaynes's economics.
I will take Mises's economics.

I see your Mises economics and raise you.........

Morgensterns Book of Economics

(least you can burn the fucker to keep warm)



the book that is not Morgenstern since he is dead






Unless you were to dig him up and burn his coffin for the Lulz

[Silverhandorder]

/yawn.

Still believe in punishing people for choosing a different life style?

[Pumpkin]

Someone who actually "gets it".

It is not the government's job to babysit people. It is not the government's job to run the economy. Leave that to the economists. Allow people to fail, instead of ... dare I say it, making America carebear, where there is no risk, just reward. You spend all your money, get fired, don't worry, we'll send you free checks. You think that's going to encourage people to work?

Good thinking. Rebel against authority, governemt is zee devil! Instead bow to your overlords, the economists!

[Silverhandorder]

Good thinking. Rebel against authority, governemt is zee devil! Instead bow to your overlords, the economists!

Well what type of economist are we talking about? There are a lot of mainstream economists trying to force their views on us.

[Killuminati]

Good thinking. Rebel against authority, governemt is zee devil! Instead bow to your overlords, the economists!

I don't want any philosopher kings making decisions for me.

[Erroneous]

First, this CEO if he wasn't obviously fabricated is retarded. If his reaction to higher taxes is to start firing people out of a sense of moral justice rather than analysis of how it would affect his bottom line he doesn't deserve those profits anyway.

Next I find it humorous how so many people get suckered in by the amount of slaving the guy did to build up his company. Why does this matter at all? I could diligently be working at something totally useless I don't deserve any sympathy. Most wealth accrues to those that can employ capital, success stories result from luck more often than dilligence, but really the free market should be blind to all of that, wealth creation is wealth creation.

There can be reasons to oppose tax increases and I certainly do in almost all cases, but this chain letter analysis takes a pretty stupid tack.

[Milo Hobgoblin]

First, this CEO if he wasn't obviously fabricated is retarded. If his reaction to higher taxes is to start firing people out of a sense of moral justice rather than analysis of how it would affect his bottom line he doesn't deserve those profits anyway.

Next I find it humorous how so many people get suckered in by the amount of slaving the guy did to build up his company. Why does this matter at all? I could diligently be working at something totally useless I don't deserve any sympathy. Most wealth accrues to those that can employ capital, success stories result from luck more often than dilligence, but really the free market should be blind to all of that, wealth creation is wealth creation.

There can be reasons to oppose tax increases and I certainly do in almost all cases, but this chain letter analysis takes a pretty stupid tack.

The highlighted portion says a lot about you. You've certainly never busted your ass to make something from nothing and certainly a succesful business.. let me guess... you're still a student? or some low end hourly worker?

and building a company is FAR from useless.. he is providing jobs, products and is part of the economy... you could spend years doing something useless.. and you're right you dont deserve ANY sympathy.. because your useless endeavor is self serving and provides none of the latter.

and chances are its fabricated... but are you implying that you cant learn something from a fictional anectdote? Your post pretty much implies you didnt comprehend the message.. enough said.

[DocGonzo]

to be fair, a fallacious anecdote only teaches fallacy

i'm just sayin'...

[Badem]

Only thing I want to do with economic books and stuff is ipe my arse on them

[Jamboreen]

Brought a tear to the entrepeneur in my heart.

[Milo Hobgoblin]

to be fair, a fallacious anecdote only teaches fallacy

i'm just sayin'...

LOL. Quoting an old saying doesnt make it right either. Depending upon your economic philosophy.. the gist of the anecdote isnt based on fallacy.

but we've already gone back and forth about that :)

[Erroneous]

The highlighted portion says a lot about you. You've certainly never busted your ass to make something from nothing and certainly a succesful business.. let me guess... you're still a student? or some low end hourly worker?

and building a company is FAR from useless.. he is providing jobs, products and is part of the economy... you could spend years doing something useless.. and you're right you dont deserve ANY sympathy.. because your useless endeavor is self serving and provides none of the latter.

and chances are its fabricated... but are you implying that you cant learn something from a fictional anectdote? Your post pretty much implies you didnt comprehend the message.. enough said.

There's no reason to buy into the whole horatio alger thing. And using that to sell the anecdote cheapens it for me. Yes it is hard work building a company from the ground up, but I think you need to get lucky just as much as you need to have a strong work ethic. And yes productive companies are an engine for economic growth, but that doesn;t mean that they shouldn't be taxed.

[alhazred]

by the time I was 30; I owned 9 rental properties (81 units), worked 5 hrs a day, had 3 "employees", made $100k+ a year and because of tax loopholes never paid a dime in state or federal taxes

If I can borrow one of Doc's lines:

learn2smallbusiness noob fucktard

having once worked for a very good tax firm that worked with all the loopholes i can certify this as BS

[Milo Hobgoblin]

There's no reason to buy into the whole horatio alger thing. And using that to sell the anecdote cheapens it for me. Yes it is hard work building a company from the ground up, but I think you need to get lucky just as much as you need to have a strong work ethic. And yes productive companies are an engine for economic growth, but that doesn;t mean that they shouldn't be taxed.

Again.. another naive' consumer who thinks corporations pay taxes. They dont YOU DO. Why is this so hard for you all to figure out..? NO company is going to risk their stockholders to pay more taxes.. they start cutting vacations, salaries, raising their prices.. you know.. inflation. Companies work VERY hard to keep level if not increasing profit margins.. How do you think they do that in the US in spite of paying the second highest corporate taxes IN THE WORLD?!?!

I know it.. Im living it now.

And what you wrote above is NOT what you said in your previous post. I completely disagree.. as all the luck in the world wont make an unneeded product needed... or make horrid business paractices.. workable.

Even implying that building a great company with a great product is 50% luck and 50% hard work is at best ignorant. "Luck" is a fools wish... its a state of affairs from being well prepared not some "magic" formula or idiotic vodoo dance.

[Milo Hobgoblin]

having once worked for a very good tax firm that worked with all the loopholes i can certify this as BS

Thank you. I didnt have the patience to call him out.. We had a VERY creative accountant at the gyms.. and you can only hide so much.

If what that poster said was true.. he was just outright breaking every tax law in existence.

[TrikkyMakk]

Whether this was really written by some boss or not, what it says is very much true of the US today.

[Erroneous]

Again.. another naive' consumer who thinks corporations pay taxes. They dont YOU DO. Why is this so hard for you all to figure out..? NO company is going to risk their stockholders to pay more taxes.. they start cutting vacations, salaries, raising their prices.. you know.. inflation. Companies work VERY hard to keep level is not increating profits.. How do you think they do that in the US in spite of paying the second highest corporate taxes IN THE WORLD?!?!

I know it.. Im living it now.

And what you wrote above is NOT what you said in your previous post. I completely disagree.. as all the luck in the world wont make an unneeded product needed... or make horrid business paractices.. workable.

Even implying that building a great company with a great product is 50% luck and 50% hard work is at best ignorant. "Luck" is a fools wish... its a state of affairs from being well prepared no some "magic" formula or idiotic vodoo dance.

I made two points in my first post to support a single conclusion. CEO's shouldn't base their personnel decisions on the basis of the (a)morality of wealth redistribution and that the effort a successful entrepreneur puts out is meaningless, profit is profit. From this I concluded the analysis was sophomoric, it doesn't address any valid concerns about corporate tax rates.

My second post used the Horatio Alger analogy to support my point that this story is fantasy. I then specifically refuted your point about the breakdown of the contribution luck and effort provide toward success. Hard work may be a necessary condition for entrepreneurial success, but it is not sufficient. There are many more hard working people than successful people.

Your point about corporations passing on taxes to consumers somes out of nowhere. I don't disagree with you, but I think its relation to the original posts point is tenuous and has nothing to do with my challenge.

Again, I am not in favor of high corporate tax rates, but the chain letter you posted in the original post is a bad way to make the argument.

[Jezrith]

Hard work may be a necessary condition for entrepreneurial success, but it is not sufficient. There are many more hard working people than successful people.


You do realize you can work ass off and still be an idiot and/or suck at something right? Luck is the lowest the deciding factor in who is successful and who isn't.

[Erroneous]

In fact I specifically mentioned as much in my first post. What I'm calling luck, you might think is clever forecasting or an intuition about a specific market - being at the right place at the right time. Its not for me to say whether you really do have a keener eye in discerning profit opportunities or it was dumb luck, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

We shouldn't care how much effort or sacrifice someone put into creating a profitable company, what does that have to do with taxes besides trying to exploit people's symapthies.

[Tibernicus]

First, this CEO if he wasn't obviously fabricated is retarded. If his reaction to higher taxes is to start firing people out of a sense of moral justice.

I think you didn't actually read the post or completely missed the point. He's firing people being times are tight, money is tight, and people need to be let go, because there's not enough money to keep everyone on, especially when he's bleeding out taxes as rewards for being successful.

[Erroneous]

I think you didn't actually read the post or completely missed the point. He's firing people being times are tight, money is tight, and people need to be let go, because there's not enough money to keep everyone on, especially when he's bleeding out taxes as rewards for being successful.

Did you read the concluding paragraph?

So, if you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about..

[rwp80]

This thread has been extremely interesting with many important points to consider. Even though you're referring to US economy, I am sure that the problem is global.

I'd like to add this point in:

A discussion about economics with the current world economy system is, literally, a discussion about magic trading beans.

The entire global economy is a retarded system, designed to slowly and steadily give wealth to those who control the supply of money. This isn't an occult groups of blood-drinking devil-worshippers, it's a bunch of old, fat, golf-playing, wealthy groups of people.

I am referring to the people at the very 'top of the trickle' - The banks that can create money from nothing in the form of loans, then bank the real money paid back to them in the form of electronic money or actual cash. Does anyone here still think that money disappears when it's repaid back?!
Not only do they get real money for loaning 'nothing' money, they get interest on top of that. If you have extra money for interest payments on top of the loan payments, then someone somewhere has less than what they owe and is on the road to foreclosure.

Just to be clear: When more money is created, that inflates the currency. It doesnt create any extra wealth, it just means that the exisiting wealth is divided over a larger spread of currency units, some of which have just been created and are sitting in the pockets of those that created them.

For example: If we all lived in a tribal village that used 'magic trading beans', then if I had some kind of method of creating magic trading beans, I would lend them out, at interest, then keep the repaid magic trading beans in a pot in my hut. I would eventually have more magic trading beans than everyone else, and eventually have the power to buy whatever I wanted, including the subservience of the village elders.

Simple point is that while you, me, and all the other average Joes of the world are discussing national/international economics, we are being laughed at by the people who make money out of thin air to deflate the money we have, then tax us for having money, then force the government to turn to us to provide more tax money (instead of taking it from the banks that create the money in the first place!). This whole bailout issue is just the cherry on top of the cake, folks.

Now let's look at the bigger picture.

As more and more people go out of business or lose their jobs, more people rely on government welfare checks and fewer people provide tax money that pays those welfare checks. As the providers get taxed more heavily, more of them go out of business or lose their jobs, and the cycle starts again.

What does this mean? At some point, not relying on government welfare checks will be so expensive that most people, like the OP, are completely discouraged from daring to start a business in the first place nowadays.
Everyone will literally be 'working for the man', or rather, on his welfare payroll.

So, we have two systems - One that is designed to hoard the wealth into the banks, and the other that is designed to narrow down the accumulation of wealth to the big businesses and institutions that can afford to keep up with the tax demands, or sidestep them.

What is going on here is a massive, global-scale takeover. Once upon a time, governments were established to serve their people. Soon, we'll all be slaves to their welfare checks and their established institutions.

That, friends, is the New World Order.

Bringing this back on-topic: You, gym-running OP, are another casualty of this massive system.

[Silverhandorder]

Did you read the concluding paragraph?

Yeah exactly? Why would he keep slaving for little rewards?

[Killuminati]

seriously, though, you guys can't actually think working hard guarantees you a good future.

[Erroneous]

Yeah exactly? Why would he keep slaving for little rewards?

Whether he is "slaving" or not he may still chose to employ his limited resources in the same pursuit even under a higher tax burden if it still provides more satisfaction than his next best alternative.

[Messaginggzs]

There's another rebellion.


Join the writer's club.

[Killuminati]

oprah's book club is superior

[Sqarak]

Oprah for all her philanthropism is a money grabbing wench.

Kudos to her for pulling it off, but it doesn't change the fact that she only does it for the phat lewt.

[Killuminati]

stop hatin

[Sqarak]

stop hatin

It's not so much hating as it is envy.

[jonyak]

Still believe in punishing people for choosing a different life style?

still beleive in living in your parents basement and living off there money, which was made off the gov't, while you spew idealistic liberatarian bullshit?

[Killuminati]

still beleive in living in your parents basement and living off there money, which was made off the gov't, while you spew idealistic liberatarian bullshit?

dayam...COLD BLOOODED

[Silverhandorder]

Whether he is "slaving" or not he may still chose to employ his limited resources in the same pursuit even under a higher tax burden if it still provides more satisfaction than his next best alternative.

Wtf are you talking about he is retiring. He will not be the one laying these people off. It will be their next boss.

Higher taxes sure as fuck effect some one's satisfaction with high salary.

still beleive in living in your parents basement and living off there money, which was made off the gov't, while you spew idealistic liberatarian bullshit?

Dance around the issue like a little girl. Your hypocrite...

[Jezrith]

In fact I specifically mentioned as much in my first post. What I'm calling luck, you might think is clever forecasting or an intuition about a specific market - being at the right place at the right time. Its not for me to say whether you really do have a keener eye in discerning profit opportunities or it was dumb luck, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

We shouldn't care how much effort or sacrifice someone put into creating a profitable company, what does that have to do with taxes besides trying to exploit people's symapthies.

It has do with the fact that you take the risks to enjoy rewards, why would you take the risk if the rewards are going to be jacked by the government?

[Erroneous]

Wtf are you talking about he is retiring. He will not be the one laying these people off. It will be their next boss.

Higher taxes sure as fuck effect some one's satisfaction with high salary.


It has do with the fact that you take the risks to enjoy rewards, why would you take the risk if the rewards are going to be jacked by the government?

You're right at some margin increasing taxes will persuade some people to stop taking risks, if you want to debate where that margin becomes important we could have an interesting debate. I don't think the fable that started this thread is a very instructive case because it conflates the issue with nonsense about the returns to effort and the conflict between borrowers and lenders.

[Vanno]

RWP knows his stuff. Our monetary system is completely nonsensical, and until mankind addresses this, our respective Economies will always be out of whack.

[xarnthal]

Good read. Odd, though, that trickle down economics (which this guy is basically talking about, in some sense, with his "if you didn't take away my $300k I'd hire new employees and give raises" statement and others) doesn't really seem to "trickle down" in practice...is this guy the outlier, perhaps?

I don't favor Obama's way of doing things either but it's just interesting to see things in this light.

Also, link please.

This guy owns a small business, IMO. Because this is how the small businesses in america see the current situation. The industry I work in has had no positive news coming from the Government, and we're currently looking at laying off 4 of our 18 employee's(had 23 at the start of the year) by mid summer if something doesn't pick up. This administration does nothing but talk about helping the small businesses of america! Well, any small business owner worth a damn in America will tell you how full of shit they are.

edit: Btw, hiring and firing people so they can get their car paid for by the Government! lol @ failed banks giving out loans to people who ***can't*** pay them back. What a genius plan.

[Incanam]

Yay! Let's read a made up letter.

[StainlessSteelRat]

I made two points in my first post to support a single conclusion. CEO's shouldn't base their personnel decisions on the basis of the (a)morality of wealth redistribution and that the effort a successful entrepreneur puts out is meaningless, profit is profit. From this I concluded the analysis was sophomoric, it doesn't address any valid concerns about corporate tax rates.

Incorrect. First, this is not a CEO (only). This is the business owner. A successful business owner that has worked hard and earned his 'luxury' and is able to retire can base their decision to retire on anything they damn well please.

Second, profit is not profit when the costs are too high. Working 80 hours a week when you are 25 and starting out is OK. Working 80 hours a week when you are 60, have a wife, 3 kids, etc. etc. is not OK. Effort is not meaningless at all. At some point you get tired of putting forth the extra effort when the rewards are not there and close up shop.

If anything, your analysis is sophomoric. You ignore the basic human incentives to own and run a business. The 'author' worked hard and achieved his goals. If the gov't comes along and sabotages his business/his achievements; he will opt out which means the people that put this gov't in power (his employees) will become unemployed. It is in their best interest to check their gov't asap or join the unemployment lines. Pretty simple message, not sure how you got so sidetracked w/ all this personal decision and (a)morality nonsense.