Magic Versus Archery

[Nytemynde]

So, out of magic versus archery, which in the end offers better damage per second?

I've heard from some that archery is the better dps route, due to many spells being on cooldown and reagent costs, then I've heard from some others that it is just not true.

Is archery one of the highest damage dealers in the game? Anyone with some experience in both or either care to take a stab at this? Any hard numbers anywhere?

[Tzacharu]

1. Archery requires one grind. Magic requires three.

2. Archery takes one reagent, which is craftable. Magic requires multiple reagents that can only be harvested or purchased.

3. Armored Archery increases many times more faster than Armored Magic.

4. Wearing armor while using a bow has hardly any repercussions to begin with. Wearing armor while using magic decreases spell cast time, decreases effect/damage, and increases the fizzle rate.

5. Arrows travel faster, however, do arc. Magic fires in a straight line (most spells) but generally moves slower.

6. Magic has cooldowns, arrows do not.

7. Archery requires a good amount of stamina, while magic requires minimal stamina.

8. A mage deep within their respective tree probably deals more damage than an archer deep within their tree.

9. Most magic has an AoE effect that helps hit targets even if you're aim is a bit off. Archery requires a precise hit.

Based on these facts, and the fact that there is a spell in Lesser Magic that makes point 7 much less of a factor, I'd have to say archery is better than magic. Archery is much easier to level and is effective in combat right from the get-go. Magic really isn't.

You can also wear armor while being an archer and still be as effective as when you don't wear armor. Wearing armor and casting has pretty significant downsides. You won't die as often, and you won't have to switch to your armor set if you are forced into melee.

You can't just look at damage per second, Darkfall is not about that. Darkfall revolves around survivability. Doesn't matter how much damage you can do if you die within a few seconds after you get into battle. With the lack of heals and proper defensive spells for mages that actually work, magic users will die quickly and will never be able to dish out the damage they can do, while archers in their heavily clad armor will be able to survive several minutes without dying.

But if you really want pure DPS, then I'd still say Archery is the way to go. Cooldowns and reagents will be limits to mages. Arrows are hardly a problem for archers and the only "cooldown" for archers is pulling back the bow.

[riddlenzomg]

armor really doesnt effect magic very much
i do about 4 less damage in a full set of scale WITHOUT using unburden with icicle
with unburden there is pretty much no difference

[TheDor]

If someone is standing still, raw dps goes to the mage. Hitting people on foot is way easier with archery than magic. Hitting mounts and mounted people is way easier with magic then archery.

[KuraM]

If someone is standing still, raw dps goes to the mage. Hitting people on foot is way easier with archery than magic. Hitting mounts and mounted people is way easier with magic then archery.

not even close, arrows is still easier to hit mounted people (they have to be moooooving)

gj being bad at pvp.

[riddlenzomg]

not even close, arrows is still easier to hit mounted people (they have to be moooooving)

gj being bad at pvp.

yeah i would have to agree
i usually turn my camera backwards so i can see people shooting at me and just move when people shoot magic
arrows are much more difficult to avoid

[Kal Drago]

really?



archery
archery shoots a fast moving DD with an arc that does X piercing damage


magery
magery (fill in the blank with the various things magery does)

[Raybur Ravenloc]

Well, I've got a fairly low level in Firebolt, and I find I'm about on par with the skilled archers.
When it comes to shooting down mounts, Firebolt wins. No cooldown, and the cast time is pretty close to that of shooting an arrow, but my firebolt does twice as much damage to the mount. It also flies fast enough that I hit nearly every time.

In foot combat though, bows have an edge. I'm not entirely sure why, but it seems easier to hit with a bow than a firebolt. Perhaps because the arrow just gets there a bit faster, and the firebolt has almost no splash. But when I can hit someone consistently, they go down fast. Like when I am blasting a runner or someone who is more or less holding still to loot, gank, or use a siege hammer. They tend to be nearly dead by the time they realize they are taking massive damage, and then I can finish them easily.

At the moment I'm mostly wearing just studded leather in battle, but I think sooner or later, with Unburden raised, I'll be able to wear Banded without any penalty. This gives archers the edge in a melee, since they can wear full plate without any significant penalty. But I only use light armor in group fights, when I can flee and let my teammates cover me. If I'm out solo I gear up in heavy armor and try to force melee. Magic doesn't seem to be a good solo choice.

The real limiter for Firebolt is my Mana at the moment. I run out after about 1 kill. But I expect that once I get the mana efficiency skills up, maybe get one of those helmets that cuts mana use, and stockpile more major mana pots, I'll be able to go much longer.

[Mutant Messiah]

comparing magic to archery is apples and oranges... magic and archery provide different ways of dealing with the same issue, killing someone.

Don't compare them all the damn time, use both...

[EvilDonkey]

comparing magic to archery is apples and oranges... magic and archery provide different ways of dealing with the same issue, killing someone.

Don't compare them all the damn time, use both...

Sssh, let them pick one way only.

[Viluin]

If someone is standing still, raw dps goes to the mage. Hitting people on foot is way easier with archery than magic. Hitting mounts and mounted people is way easier with magic then archery.

Eh I'm not sure about that. With 100 Sharpshooter you'll be hitting medium armored players for 50 damage from behind. At the cost of 1 arrow and a small amount of stamina. A mage is OOM after like 8 nukes, and archer can fire 100+ of those arrows with food.

[Kaol]

they compliment each other, magic has its uses ( killing people on mounts is 1)

magic does more damage

[raff01]

you forget to say archery is affected by armor. your archery will do much less dmg against heavily armored folks.
Magic often doesn't care about the armor and will still do as much dmg.
Also Magic has AOE and you can often hit multiple targets with 1 shot.

[naga_ownage]

Eh I'm not sure about that. With 100 Sharpshooter you'll be hitting medium armored players for 50 damage from behind. At the cost of 1 arrow and a small amount of stamina. A mage is OOM after like 8 nukes, and archer can fire 100+ of those arrows with food.

Ya, too bad all the mage can do is stand there, waiting for mana at that point :[

Or, he would whip out his bow+sharpshooter and fire off 100+ arrows with food and already be at a damage advantage :]

[Zunk[SUN]]

jsut a fyi: 6. Magic has cooldowns, arrows do not.

There are spells without cooldown, example Blast in LM

[mcap]

armor really doesnt effect magic very much
i do about 4 less damage in a full set of scale WITHOUT using unburden with icicle
with unburden there is pretty much no difference

You're partially right. If your unburden doesn't reduce your magic penalty to 0 you won't notice a huge difference. There is, however, a HUGE difference between full scale and 0 magic penalty. Cast times are much longer and spells have a much weaker effect.

If someone is standing still, raw dps goes to the mage. Hitting people on foot is way easier with archery than magic. Hitting mounts and mounted people is way easier with magic then archery.

I disagree about mounts. Maybe if the mount is still too close to react and dodge. The fastest traveling nukes I know of (other than the lightning strike/impale/etc that don't reach very far) are the starter nukes for the final schools and people are very capable of hearing, seeing and dodging or jumping over them if they're a decent distance. You can't do that against arrows. Also, raw burst dps goes to the mage but an archer can sustain their damage much, much longer.

Well, I've got a fairly low level in Firebolt, and I find I'm about on par with the skilled archers.
When it comes to shooting down mounts, Firebolt wins. No cooldown, and the cast time is pretty close to that of shooting an arrow, but my firebolt does twice as much damage to the mount. It also flies fast enough that I hit nearly every time.



Nobody who uses Firebolt (or any other projectile spell for that matter) is really on par with a "skilled" archer. That's not an insult - it's just not possible to overcome the projectile speed of archery with good aim. Aim doesn't change what happens in the time between when you release a projectile and when it hits. With archery, that time is much shorter, meaning less can happen that causes a shot to miss.

Also, like I said above, Firebolt doesn't hit mounts every time if the rider is far enough away to see and dodge it, assuming they know what they're doing. The necro nuke, however, might very well be better at killing mounts than archery because it's either invisible or very difficult to see until it hits.

In foot combat though, bows have an edge. I'm not entirely sure why, but it seems easier to hit with a bow than a firebolt. Perhaps because the arrow just gets there a bit faster, and the firebolt has almost no splash. But when I can hit someone consistently, they go down fast. Like when I am blasting a runner or someone who is more or less holding still to loot, gank, or use a siege hammer. They tend to be nearly dead by the time they realize they are taking massive damage, and then I can finish them easily.


I can't really disagree here. I think it's harder to aim magic with little or no splash in foot combat because players change directions so much faster than mounts do, and it's nearly impossible to react to that if the projectile doesn't reach it's target almost instantly. Archery does reach nearly instantly if the target is fairly close.

At the moment I'm mostly wearing just studded leather in battle, but I think sooner or later, with Unburden raised, I'll be able to wear Banded without any penalty. This gives archers the edge in a melee, since they can wear full plate without any significant penalty. But I only use light armor in group fights, when I can flee and let my teammates cover me. If I'm out solo I gear up in heavy armor and try to force melee. Magic doesn't seem to be a good solo choice.

Agreed. It's a lot easier to hit someone who's not specifically trying to dodge YOUR attacks and, due to the mana limitations your misses hurt you a lot more than theirs hurt them (assuming they're using archery).


My biggest rant, though, is mana missile/lesser magic. Mana missile is too good. It's supposed to be the weakest offensive spell in the game because it doesn't require a reagent. To me, a spell that you STILL use constantly even after grinding magic for weeks isn't the weakest spell just because it does the least damage. They really need to add some spells that serve as an upgrade to MM as far as general use (something low damage, low mana, decent splash, no cooldown). As far as I've seen, there really isn't anything like that...even spells that behave similarly are much higher mana cost, big damage spells. Add to that the fact that lesser magic has the 3 best utility spells in the game (mana to stamina, stamina to health and launch) and it takes some of the excitement out of grinding magic

edit: Removed half my post... and it's still too long.

[riddlenzomg]

You're partially right. If your unburden doesn't reduce your magic penalty to 0 you won't notice a huge difference. There is, however, a HUGE difference between full scale and 0 magic penalty. Cast times are much longer and spells have a much weaker effect.




nope
tested it myself
4 damage difference and MAYBE half a second difference in casting time
this was tested with elemental magic without unburden

[Gratchek]

we have a member who uses Water magic. He absolutely destroys people with icicles but requires an insane amount of nacre which is a pain to get. We finally gave up and assisted in funding direct purchase form the merchant lol.

If you have easy access to reagents or gold magic>>>>>archery

If NOT archery>>>>>magic

Our fire guy has an almost unlimited supply of sulfur so hes a madman in pvp when the times call for ranged damage.

The biggest issue I've found lately with magic is when you want to roll in plate armor. Magic is severely affected while archery loses none of its power whatsoever.

We keep out mages protected for this very reason but it also makes them stand out, hence the problem.

If you need defense in armor archery>>>>>magic
if NOT magic>>>>>archery

Now if your mages are smart they are running with shields and 1h with knockback so cover for their lack of physical defense. This way if they are singled out you can drop the aggressors quickly.




EDIT: I saw a post above where someone said its easier to hit with bows. This is something I cannot agree with. With icicles you get an extremely fast moving spell that goes 100% straight and never seems to stop. Its very easy to land this spell on anyone if its used properly.

[ZtruK]

The answer is the best is both unless you are talking about some sort of 1 on 1 duel or something.

I use both Water magic and Archery. The main problem with magic is the lack of a Stam to Mana spell. Icicle has a great burst damage, but if you spam it, you go OOM very quicky and you have 95% stam letf. Unless you want to waist a ton of time useing Health to Mana then Stam to Health over and over you need to either switch to bow or melee to get some use from your stam (if you aren't getting hit you can get away with just health to Mana + food).

I use Icicle for the inital burst, then finish with Archery until some mana regens then back to Water.

One hope for pure mages is Archmage. No one has it and we are comparing Archery with the 75 required mastery to low end magery with no damage mastery which is the 75 int required Archmage. From what we have seen with Melee/Archery the mastry skills make a significant difference in dammage, so magery's true top end damage is yet to be seen.

[Nasty]

Welcome to archerfall

[Darin]

Something else people aren't saying ...

You can use a shield to block an arrow, but you can't use a shield to block magic.

Also magic is easier to aim if there is a height difference between you and your target since you can aim at the ground (either tall person shooting down at short, or person on hill shooting to ground).

Archery does MUCH better when the elevation of the targets are the same/slightly off where you can't see their feet for splash damage. This will drastically reduce the chance of actually landing hits with magic and its where archery starts to shine.

I also find it is much easier to hit someone in the back with an arrow than with magic

[subdwarf]

Something else people aren't saying ...

You can use a shield to block an arrow, but you can't use a shield to block magic.




wrong

[TheDor]

not even close, arrows is still easier to hit mounted people (they have to be moooooving)

gj being bad at pvp.
Ya, I can see how that would be true if you're still shooting mana missile. Moron.
Eh I'm not sure about that. With 100 Sharpshooter you'll be hitting medium armored players for 50 damage from behind. At the cost of 1 arrow and a small amount of stamina. A mage is OOM after like 8 nukes, and archer can fire 100+ of those arrows with food.

So, you don't know what DPS stands for?

[raff01]

Magic requires at least 2 reagents for any spell in upper schools.
In 1 hour of farming you might collect around 50 mandrake / sulfur, allowing you to cast 25 times for almost the same amount of damage as archery.
For Archery you will collect easily 200 timber and 100 ore in 1 hour, allowing you to craft around 500 arrows allowing you to fire 500 times.

[NurfedRekuul]

1. Archery requires one grind. Magic requires three.

2. Archery takes one reagent, which is craftable. Magic requires multiple reagents that can only be harvested or purchased.

3. Armored Archery increases many times more faster than Armored Magic.

4. Wearing armor while using a bow has hardly any repercussions to begin with. Wearing armor while using magic decreases spell cast time, decreases effect/damage, and increases the fizzle rate.

5. Arrows travel faster, however, do arc. Magic fires in a straight line (most spells) but generally moves slower.

6. Magic has cooldowns, arrows do not.

7. Archery requires a good amount of stamina, while magic requires minimal stamina.

8. A mage deep within their respective tree probably deals more damage than an archer deep within their tree.

9. Most magic has an AoE effect that helps hit targets even if you're aim is a bit off. Archery requires a precise hit.

Based on these facts, and the fact that there is a spell in Lesser Magic that makes point 7 much less of a factor, I'd have to say archery is better than magic. Archery is much easier to level and is effective in combat right from the get-go. Magic really isn't.

You can also wear armor while being an archer and still be as effective as when you don't wear armor. Wearing armor and casting has pretty significant downsides. You won't die as often, and you won't have to switch to your armor set if you are forced into melee.

You can't just look at damage per second, Darkfall is not about that. Darkfall revolves around survivability. Doesn't matter how much damage you can do if you die within a few seconds after you get into battle. With the lack of heals and proper defensive spells for mages that actually work, magic users will die quickly and will never be able to dish out the damage they can do, while archers in their heavily clad armor will be able to survive several minutes without dying.

But if you really want pure DPS, then I'd still say Archery is the way to go. Cooldowns and reagents will be limits to mages. Arrows are hardly a problem for archers and the only "cooldown" for archers is pulling back the bow.

Best post on the subject I've seen, GJ.

[taf_esra]

Why archery is better than magery:

1. Cost per damage.
just the other day I was ganked and I was being hit for 30-40 damage with archery, now I have no idea how high the dudes archery was but I'm going to assume that's pretty high up there. I do about 30-45 damage with 25 firebolt, but let's say that I have high firebolt/fire magic, so I do 50-60 damage. arrows cost around 1g. sulfur costs around 2 gold rounded down. firebolt requires 2 sulfur for a total of 4g per cast. archery however costs 1 gold per shot. So, magic gets 13.75 damage per gold while archery gets 35 damage per gold.

2. The amount of casts/shots per bar for damage output (sustained damage)
let's say I have 300 mana and 300 stam.
it costs 18.66 mana to cast firebolt but like before, I'll be nice and say it costs 15 mana to cast. it costs 4 or 5 stam to shoot an arrow, so I'll say it costs 5 stam (I couldn't mouse over fast enough to my stam bar :( ).
20 casts of firebolt per bar at 55 damage average = 1100 damage. 60 arrows fired at 35 damage average = 2100 damage.

Conclusion; Even when I'm being kind to magic, it's still obvious that archery is better in these catagorys

Why magery is better than archery:

1. Archery is harder to hit with/has a shorter range.
This is debatable and based purely on anecdote but archery seems harder to hit with.

2. Burst damage.
Well I'm too lazy to grab a stopwatch and time it, but the burst damage of firebolt will greatly exceed archery's burst damage.

3. A complete lack of AoE.
Archery is obviously isn't explosive, but most spells seem to have a small aoe radius to a big radius.

Conclusion; as you can see, I don't have a lot of experience with archery, but these are the problems that I can imagine archers would be having.
My suggestions for balance:

1. lower the mana cost on magic spells slightly. If you do this, reduce the damage also.
2. reduce AoE on spells.
3. Make reagents 1g per from a vendor.
4. On a side note, retool air magic so it's on par with the speed of leveling of other elemental magic spells



Unknowns:
I do not know the cost of grinding up archery vs magic, but I have a feeling that with the cost of reagents magic will be much more expensive.

[sweet_tooth]

Magery = burst damage and utility
archery = sustained damage, in some cases easier to hit others it is harder

Neither is OP imo. If you played uo in the old days a flamestrike took 40mana (the biggest single target nuke) and your total mana was 100. They ruled archers hitting for 30-40 and stam was endless. It's all about using the burst damage because IMO in pvp that is much more effective. Maxed out archers have less burst damage then a newbie elementalist.

[taf_esra]

Magery = burst damage and utility
archery = sustained damage, in some cases easier to hit others it is harder

Neither is OP imo. If you played uo in the old days a flamestrike took 40mana (the biggest single target nuke) and your total mana was 100. They ruled archers hitting for 30-40 and stam was endless. It's all about using the burst damage because IMO in pvp that is much more effective. Maxed out archers have less burst damage then a newbie elementalist.

archery has enough burst damage to take down somone very quickly, albeit slower than magic. It's projectiles are much faster also, so hit more often. I hit with firebolt in pvp ~50% of the time, or less if they sprint or crouch.

[sweet_tooth]

The nuke you get at 50 elemental has a similar aoe to maxed mana missle. You wont miss nearly as much. Once you get that the starter nuke becomes more for mounts or backshots on a runner. Archery is good, and a few archers can drop people crazy fast, but mages can do it a lot quicker even at low levels. Both have their advantages. Also take into account multiple targets where magery pwns archery.

[sweet_tooth]

Also, if you trying to play a pure caster at this point in the game you will get mirkd plain and simple. You need archery or melee to go with it. Endgame I believe will be a different story when you have 400+mana and school efficiencies high as well as archmage, vet mage, etc.

[FireBladeXL]

Most of the mages crying here don't really have the say-so to be crying. Once you get all your end-game helping skills for your magics it'll work the other way. A huge mana pool, plus mana reducing skills, and reagent reducing skills. Yes, bitch ALL you want about the grind up there, but I don't wanna see the first fireball chaingun mage in the game, at all.

[taf_esra]

first fireball chaingun mage

lols. fireball has a cooldown.
Once you get all your end-game helping skills for your magics it'll work the other way.
same thing can be said about archery. no one has stam maxed or the dexterity bonus. Even if the reg conservation skill has a 100% chance to work magic will still cost more and be less effective.

[KuraM]

get the r50 nukes in elemental, and you got a bigger splash then MM, with more dmg then archery.

[A-A]

Yep. 50k reagants later and countless hours passed you finally can rival 2 weeks of shooting arrows!

[Armstrong[DiE]]

Archery are overpowerd.

Those who claim otherwise are the people that like to put sticks into other men! :D

[Ooli]

i think most ppl never played a rpg game when reading some threads here.

Magicusers: supporting others (damagewise(aoe damage to more than one) or with heal and buffs), he can solo but its the aoes where he shines, when counting damage to groups highest damageoutput in games.(Lets say you hit with 30 damage 4 ppl, thats 120 damage with one cast, not counting spells like finger of death , word of death or similar from other games ;) )

Archery: single target high damage dealer, can kill anything fast in 1v1, has some poblems against groups.

that is how i played as mage/healer/archer in nearly ever mmo, except some where mages where overpowered where u can kill everthing solo and it was nice to find some mobs close together for the extra xp boost ;)

to see if one of the them is overpowered just try a 1v1 at max sightrange where the archer has to come in range first(he should win most of the time regardless(dunno how the buffs/debuffs of the different magic schools count into)) and 10v10 everyone close together where the mages should win most of the time.

[Drekor]

High level mages will destroy archers.

Low level mages will be destroyed by archers.

Getting to "high level" as a mage is incredibly expensive and time consuming.

[Euvici]

High level mages will destroy archers.

Low level mages will be destroyed by archers.

Getting to "high level" as a mage is incredibly expensive and time consuming.

Oh bull, every mage I see that drops high level elemental and arcane/necro still has a bow out 50%+ plus of the time plus near scale armor.

Any that I've seen or heard of, I'm sure "your nonfactor guildmate" isn't this way but whatever..TM,RN,SN all those high level magic users roll in armor +bow, and throw out some long range aoes as a utility to scatter people. Then the kills come elsewhere. The hail guy drops firespells all over the field but of the three times he has killed me guess what my journal says....ARCHERY.

Use both or fail, archery IS required.

[Azure247]

Oh bull, every mage I see that drops high level elemental and arcane/necro still has a bow out 50%+ plus of the time plus near scale armor.

Any that I've seen or heard of, I'm sure "your nonfactor guildmate" isn't this way but whatever..TM,RN,SN all those high level magic users roll in armor +bow, and throw out some long range aoes as a utility to scatter people. Then the kills come elsewhere. The hail guy drops firespells all over the field but of the three times he has killed me guess what my journal says....ARCHERY.

Use both or fail, archery IS required.

So we have to raise melee, magic and archery? Isn't that too much?

[Greywind]

Magic all the way.
Archery is but one of the tool for all practical reasons not self sufficient. It does one thing range dmg
Magic is self sufficient set of tools. Buffs, debuffs, AoE, Snare, DoTs, Anti armor, heal etc.

[Durindana]

same thing can be said about archery

no it can't dude. people already have maxed-out sharpshooter. How many people do you know who even have archmage? Thought so. And what about school intensify?

Anyway most of this discussion is uselessly simplistic. How do you heal someone with a bow? Does archery come with a pierce debuff?

And by far most important, I haven't seen the "multishot" AoE archery skill in-game. In a siege where terrain/buildings force concentration, one dude on the walls with a bow (100 archery, 100 sharpshooter) is an annoyance... to one person at a time. One high-lvl fire mage, otoh, is an immediate and serious threat to everyone nearby

[Surtidor]

Magic is just a joke on Darkfall.
My first nuke of elemental (Air) travel sloooooooow, does same damage that an arrow fired by an archer, but mine take 1 month more to get and lot of money.
My nuke spend 2 mandrakes = 3 gold, while arrow is 1 gold.
My nuke can be dodge easily, as far is really slow + cooldown + mana loss.
You can maximize your stamina throught lot of things (swiming, mining....)
You can't maximize your mana except for wisdom (1 point mana for each wisdom point) and intelligence (alchemy, way expensive, and using magic)
Quickness does not affect magic.
.
.
.
You can fill this list with lot of things.


P.D. Don't wanna talk about archers underwater....

[[LoD]Sabbath]

armor really doesnt effect magic very much
i do about 4 less damage in a full set of scale WITHOUT using unburden with icicle
with unburden there is pretty much no difference

The biggest difference in casting in say, bone armor, and casting in full plate is casting time and fizzles.

I play in full plate often, and I'd guess that 1 in 10 of my casts fizzle, and I have 60 something armored casting and get approx -24 with my unburden.

[Foehammer]

If Magic does not end up on the top of the food chain in this game, considering all the factors involved and the skill-based play style of DF, then something is wrong.

I expect that it will be worth the effort I'm putting into it. Time will tell and at that point I'll be able to offer a more educated opinion on this topic. For now I'll just keep grinding.

That said, however, it should be evident from previous games, though, that a magic system that requires reagents should give the nod to the mages in overall power.

Considering the ridiculously small spread on the magic shots I'm seeing, I'd say if the devs want to quickly balance the scales one way or the other with Magic versus all the other DPS methods, then increasing or diminishing the spread on DD shots would be the best method. Right now I'm inclined to say that the spread is too small. WTF is the sense of tossing spells if you give yourself almost the same spread as a bow user, which obviously should be a very precise weapon to be truly effective.

A great bow user should be a deadly opponent, but the skill and aiming should be quite difficult. A castable should not be as hard to hit with, for what I hope are all obvious reasons.

[junkoe]

If Magic does not end up on the top of the food chain in this game, considering all the factors involved and the skill-based play style of DF, then something is wrong.

I expect that it will be worth the effort I'm putting into it. Time will tell and at that point I'll be able to offer a more educated opinion on this topic. For now I'll just keep grinding.

That said, however, it should be evident from previous games, though, that a magic system that requires reagents should give the nod to the mages in overall power.

Considering the ridiculously small spread on the magic shots I'm seeing, I'd say if the devs want to quickly balance the scales one way or the other with Magic versus all the other DPS methods, then increasing or diminishing the spread on DD shots would be the best method. Right now I'm inclined to say that the spread is too small. WTF is the sense of tossing spells if you give yourself almost the same spread as a bow user, which obviously should be a very precise weapon to be truly effective.

A great bow user should be a deadly opponent, but the skill and aiming should be quite difficult. A castable should not be as hard to hit with, for what I hope are all obvious reasons.

Get your 50 elemental nuke/aoe an then you can talk. High end magic is plenty powerful. It gets even more fun at 100.

Sure it's a lot tougher grind than anything else but it also has the highest RANGED damage plus it's an AOE. In a 1 v 1 situation archery can still be badass, but in a group setting, high level mages dish out more damage.

[dschingis]

i think most ppl never played a rpg game when reading some threads here.

Magicusers: supporting others (damagewise(aoe damage to more than one) or with heal and buffs), he can solo but its the aoes where he shines, when counting damage to groups highest damageoutput in games.(Lets say you hit with 30 damage 4 ppl, thats 120 damage with one cast, not counting spells like finger of death , word of death or similar from other games ;) )

Archery: single target high damage dealer, can kill anything fast in 1v1, has some poblems against groups.

that is how i played as mage/healer/archer in nearly ever mmo, except some where mages where overpowered where u can kill everthing solo and it was nice to find some mobs close together for the extra xp boost ;)

to see if one of the them is overpowered just try a 1v1 at max sightrange where the archer has to come in range first(he should win most of the time regardless(dunno how the buffs/debuffs of the different magic schools count into)) and 10v10 everyone close together where the mages should win most of the time.

you dont even play df right?

[pwd79]

The thing about using magic is that it makes a loud noise and generates a lot of light saying "I'm here!" to everybody around. Arrows are quieter and less noticable visually too.

[TNoD]

you dont even play df right?

qft lol

[Abremalist]

If you end up in water with magic vs archer, you as a magic-user are dead. No chance.

At least water-spells should be castable under water.

[FastEddy]

Magic at 100 will destroy an archery everytime.

However archery will probally deal more damage over time.

[Crindle]

The thing about using magic is that it makes a loud noise and generates a lot of light saying "I'm here!" to everybody around. Arrows are quieter and less noticable visually too.

Right, so that huge ass fireball you are shooting, shouldn't have light, or sound, because it should be a quiet flame of damage hell coming at you like a meteor?

Now if magic ever was like arrows, then everyone would have a problem.

Think, of getting hit for like 60 damage, and not seeing or hearing where it came from, but that it looked liek a small arrow. LOL right.

In water magic, isn't there that one spell that delays archery shooting?

The one that winterbound shoot? That crap really messes up my DPS, and rythm for shooting, if the player one is the same.

I think magic is better, and I am a bow user. Only got 60ish SS, but the damage people claim vs. armored folks is false information.

[Pcheez]

Main difference is the grind.

In 2 days of farming timber/ore without mastery, you can get enough to make all the arrows you need to hit 75 and get the two masteries.

You dont even need a wall, just 1 person to stand there, no downtime of magic either due to a well known bug.

Bam.

[Uzuki]

Main difference is the grind.

In 2 days of farming timber/ore without mastery, you can get enough to make all the arrows you need to hit 75 and get the two masteries.

You dont even need a wall, just 1 person to stand there, no downtime of magic either due to a well known bug.

Bam.

Better make archery slower then.