Macroing

[Lakshmana]

I dont know what the official dev position is on macroing skills in this game. I do know that if there are skills that support gains through macroing it will happen. Lets give the devs a good idea of where their player base stands about macroing. I, for one, am all for it!

[paade]

macroing is for gay people.

[Surly]

"'til the softcap turns hard" haha, well phrased.

If we can macro, I'll macro the shit out of this game. I hate grinding... I HATE grinding! I want to play, not practice. If it's frowned upon or against policy, though, I'll probably just wind up making one character as a crafter and working my skills up to their maximum levels.

edit: If it's against the rules, you can bet your ass I'll report people for doing it :p

[Falt]

I really hope it's frowned upon and a reportable offense...

If it is I will report it to GM's.

[Phineus]

If you're going to macro why are you even going to bother playing the game in the first place? Macro's are forgivable in games like UO were there's no point to getting skills any other way, but in a modern game like Darkfall where the game it's self should be fun and the devs have put so much effort into the PvE aspect of the game you shouldn

[Asmodeus]

[QUOTE=Phineus]If you're going to macro why are you even going to bother playing the game in the first place? Macro's are forgivable in games like UO were there's no point to getting skills any other way, but in a modern game like Darkfall where the game it's self should be fun and the devs have put so much effort into the PvE aspect of the game you shouldn

[Surly]

I will never get into PvE, ever...

If they truly made PvE and skill gaining a FUN process, then I would change my mind. Idiotic point-to-point "questing" that isn't even as good as text-based RPG quests from the 80s just doesn't do it for me. Killing goblins until I magically learn how to swing a sword better is repetitive and boring. If the game itself is fun, I'll play the game and I won't take any shortcuts (likewise if macroing is against user policy), but MMORPG gameplay is not about the side-thought PvE crap... it's about the PvP, and not just the fighting. It's about the interaction, the politics, the competition... and of course it boils down to a lot of fighting too. PvE has been shit in every MMO I've ever played, and I don't expect any more from Darkfall. If they surprise me and put something fun in there I'll probably love 'em for it even more though. But unless they really do something revolutionary with it in this game, all of their "hard work" is a waste on me and plenty of other people just like me... as long as MMO PvE is worse than what I can get in a single player RPG I will never find any fun in it.

[Falt]

[QUOTE=Phineus]If you're going to macro why are you even going to bother playing the game in the first place? Macro's are forgivable in games like UO were there's no point to getting skills any other way, but in a modern game like Darkfall where the game it's self should be fun and the devs have put so much effort into the PvE aspect of the game you shouldn

[Darkmatter]

I don`t support macroing. And the developers shouldn`t either.

[Phineus]

Well said Teth. Totally agree. :)


Was that a compliment or an insult? ...I can't tell.

[Lysandor]

Was that a compliment or an insult? ...I can't tell.

Just take it man...its a bone, well used, but a bone nonetheless.

[Silverhaze]

if macroing will be allowed, i dont think i'll play darkfall.... hard, but noting i hate more than macroing

[Spinewire]

I will just probably duel my mates to get my skills up and go "PvE" when i need cash etc untill i'm high enigh then i will pwn ppl for loot.

[Raybur Ravenloc]

need an option for wont macro and will grief macroers to oblivion

[Sidabras]

Hum, some people just like to"Unleash" the power of directX applications. Look at DAoC. There are groups of very talent programmers, some with an affinity for "Wyverns", that make it there job to write mods for games. Look at the number of people that run these programs in DAoC. Look at the stuff they have made, radar, cash farming bots, leveling bots etc.

Look at the pve overhead in getting a lvl50 in DAoC, pretty high. Now the Devs in DF say that getting a pvp viable character in DF will be pretty low pve overhead. So, even if you get banned, not that big of a deal to reroll.

Erik

[Metal Wolf]

I figure if you dont learn it naturally in pking or getteing yourself ready for pking its not nessisary. macroing just means you have to sort through a bunch of useless junk to set up your skils.

[Weleho]

macroing makes the user less innovative, less patient, less 'Good player'.
There ain't possibly any other positive sides in a macro than the fact that it allows IRL busy people / impatient people to gain abilities that require a lot of time to work on. But I hope the DFO skill system will be so complex that a macro proggy can't handle it.
So I don't approve macroing- games for gamers, lyfe for people who like lyfe.
Lamers get nothing :D
I can see that I own't be taht succesful in this game, as I don't have that much time to actually improve my character's skills.. the more the player needs skill, the more successfl I am in a game.

[Falt]

Was that a compliment or an insult? ...I can't tell.

Now you got me all confuzzled! :eek:

[Rampage]

I will just probably duel my mates to get my skills up and go "PvE" when i need cash etc untill i'm high enigh then i will pwn ppl for loot.

Hehe, I can imagine one guy repeatedly slashing his friend with a sword to get skill up, his friend being afk and a third guy healing the guy taking the hits (healer increases his healing skills). Perhaps with macro/bot/whatever.

[Oxandrolone]

I'm going to get to the endgame as quickly as possible so I can seriously PvP on an even playing field. That involves macroing. I have better things to do than waste my time leveling my swordsmanship skill on ratmen.

But hey, if grinding floats your boat, be my guest. When I get near the softcap, I'm going to grief the shit out of you anti-macroers, just so I can laugh. Ok that's an exaggeration in response to the macroer hate on here.

You best get with reality and realize that a lot of the players here will be former UO-ers who relied heavily on improving their characters while AFK, and you'll be behind the lot as far as advancement if you don't.



I won't run bots or whatever for cash. I'm too lazy to figure those out.

[Surly]

The biggest reason a lot of people macro is to "keep up" with both the players who are online 20/7 and the others who also macro. If the developers want to squash it, they need to take a very hardline anti-macro policy and ban the shit out of people for doing it. Not just IP ban, or account banning, but denying service to their person (via social security number, name, or credit card information). If they don't take the necessary steps to stop macroing, it will become rampant... and I'll be damned if I'm going to be gimped compared to some shithead who macros and comes around just to grief me and my guild. I have no qualms putting the enemy's tools into use.

I certainly hope they either go after macroers, or just say "it's ok to macro"... I'd hate to be stuck in the moral dillema of the devs saying "Don't do it" and the people who DO it just get away with it. That's ridiculous, and it punishes the people who follow the rules.

[Crunk]

for an official stance on this i'll wait for a dev quote. until then, voted 'no' on macroing.

[valique_001]

I had to vote yes for the macroing. Honestly It allows me to devote more time to playing the game. If i can macro the boring stuff while I sleep such as standing with a guildie in a house beating the crap outa eachother with a healing macro on and attack I will take it. But I doubt this game will take a liking towards macroing/botting so depending on the final word of the developers It will change what i actually do as compared to what i would prefer to do. ;)

[Zekarde]

Personaly I think the game should either have no macroing and seriously enforced rules against it.. or just be easy as hell to improve skills on.

Leaving the computer on with a program should either be impossible or unhelpfull.


If botting were allowed though (or just poorly enforced.) I would certainly experiment with the friendly fire system. Currently im thinking I would send in my newbie alternate character to jump into the botters sword untill he died and the botter becomes a criminal, then I would kill him(gaining reputation) and take all of his equipment.

If it isnt that simple then.. well I suppose we can all have our own criminal cerial-killer alts. ;)

But seriously, leaving the computer on and gaining a compareable amount to someone who actualy plays the game is unfair and doesnt make any sense to actualy be in a game players actualy play.

Dont make another lineage II.
(struggles to find a place that isnt being farmed by a bot.)

[Raltar]

[QUOTE=Phineus]If you're going to macro why are you even going to bother playing the game in the first place? Macro's are forgivable in games like UO were there's no point to getting skills any other way, but in a modern game like Darkfall where the game it's self should be fun and the devs have put so much effort into the PvE aspect of the game you shouldn

[Oxandrolone]

I would absolutely love a game where skill gain is really easy and I could just play an hour a night an gain relatively fast and be at the endgame within a few weeks.

However, because these games... to keep the carebears entertained... by definition have to have a long lag time before the end game. Else everyone thinks they've beat the game already and have no real need to continue playing. Or they throw a fit that there is not enough endgame content.

In turn, you end up with this really boring lengthy leveling period where your character becomes fodder to anyone who plays significantly more than you. In an open PvP game with few repercussions to murderers, I can tell you that that's going to become really frustrating very quickly.

To keep up with those who are happy not having a job or class and can play 8 hours a day, I'm going to have to macro for at least 8 hours a day.

[Falt]

Yipes double post. :(

[Falt]

But seriously, leaving the computer on and gaining a compareable amount to someone who actualy plays the game is unfair and doesnt make any sense to actualy be in a game players actualy play.

Ding ding ding! We have a winnah!

Someone earlier in this thread touched on Bots; if Macroing exists then eBayed characters WILL become commonplace... specifically "bot-themed" characters that heal/buff primarily.

Is it so wrong to WANT the gamers to play the GAME, as opposed to powering their way asap through the content put before them? I don't think so.

[Falt]

I had to vote yes for the macroing. Honestly It allows me to devote more time to playing the game.

Err... wait a minute. Isn't that statement kinda contradictory? You're not "playing" the game, you're using a program to "skip" over (probably a large chunk) of it. Hmm.

Since DF doesn't have levels and you can fight other players effectively right out of the gates, why bother "skipping" past any of the skilling up yourself?

Sure, I can fully understand the hate folks have involved in killing the same mobs over and over, but allowing macroing (especially in a non-level based game) isn't really the "solution" to the problem; the solution would be to make the skilling fairly quick to levels just below GM status... and to make the monsters dynamic and fun to hunt and kill.

Since the monster-spawns themselves are dynamic and move around from place to place, you're invariably going to be fighting other players over them... making any kind of doldrums of the "skilling up" that much more enjoyable.

The ramifications of allowing macroing go a lot farther then just "skipping" past the game's content that some may find boring. I mean, why bother coding in the skill-leveling at all if all the players are going to do is macro them all to mastery? Why not just allow everyone to pick from a pre-set amount of skillpoints and assign them to the 500 skills accordingly; would save the developers time and energy not having to program as many monsters... and the players time because they wouldn't have to park their characters in some house somewhere night after night.

Everybody wins in that scenario... but there's less "worldy" content and less sense of accomplishment, eh?

If i can macro the boring stuff while I sleep such as standing with a guildie in a house beating the crap outa eachother with a healing macro on and attack I will take it.

If this stuff is allowed I fear for the game's life. Where's the sense of accomplishment in something like this? GMing a skill should be something a player can take pride (as lame as it sounds) in. It should be an achievement, not: "I stuck my charactr in a house and now hes a legendiry swordsmaan!1 Hololololbbq!"

Otherwise everyone involved can save a ton of time with just getting all the skillpoints from the getgo, like I outlined above.

But I doubt this game will take a liking towards macroing/botting so...

Lets hope you're right.

[zlurp]

Big words defending a game that hasn't even been made yet. Just because the devs SAY those features are in the game doesn't mean they will be.

I was recently part of the open beta for Dark and Light (A.K.A. Settlers of Garaenth) and the devs claimed ALL of the same things for that game. PvE will be fun, they said. Spawns will move based on camping they said. Leveling won't be boring they said. None of those features were in the game. Not a single one. All of the features they promised would make the game orginal were missing. No religons, no explorers, no fun PvE, no crafting, just alot of grinding. I quit and got a refund for my pre-order.

I wish I had the same chance to jump ship from Shadowbane before I lost money on that deal. Same disaster, only worse. Not only did the Shadowbane devs fail to deliver many of the features they had hyped up before release, they also released a game so buggy it was barely playable at all.

Don't assume that just because the devs say something that its true. If anything, you should assume everything they say is a lie just to be on the safe side.

well maybe the reason people have been waiting for a few years is because these devs actually intend to deliver. and anyway u cant compare DnL, even on paper it didnt look as good. they probably realised that n realeased early to try snag the impatient people. the devs have said many times the reason for not releasing anything is cos its not complete..

[TheHybrid]

The last choice should be "Will not macro and will murder macroers."

[waffleninja]

macroing is fine with me. it's not a problem really b/c if you dont want the person macroing you can just kill them.

[caliph]

macroing is fine with me. it's not a problem really b/c if you dont want the person macroing you can just kill them.

Exactly, I would love if folk macro. They'll do all the farming for me, i'll just kill and loot them.

[Falt]

macroing is fine with me. it's not a problem really b/c if you dont want the person macroing you can just kill them.

Be kinda hard for us non-stealther types out there if the macroers are doing it inside a guild-controlled area wouldn't it?

Or maybe there will be guards that have "see hidden" abilities and the macroers will just stick their toons behind them when they go afk... along with any Npcs they may have hired.

Merely stating that killing Macroers will be easy is really going out on a limb, imo.

Am I the only one that thinks the people who are for macroing in any guise... are also the people who like to hide behind their characters abilities and not their own skill at playing the game? It's kind of crutch-like when you think about it... that they'd have to stoop to macroing at all while lots of other players out there find it unnecessary and rightfully rely on their skill to play their characters the way the Dev's designed the game to be played...

Unless there is a /macro ability built in the game, I consider macroing a form of cheating.

[caliph]

Be kinda hard for us non-stealther types out there if the macroers are doing it inside a guild-controlled area wouldn't it?

Or maybe there will be guards that have "see hidden" abilities and the macroers will just stick their toons behind them when they go afk... along with any Npcs they may have hired.

Merely stating that killing Macroers will be easy is really going out on a limb, imo.

Am I the only one that thinks the people who are for macroing in any guise... are also the people who like to hide behind their characters abilities and not their own skill at playing the game? It's kind of crutch-like when you think about it... that they'd have to stoop to macroing at all while lots of other players out there find it unnecessary and rightfully rely on their skill to play their characters the way the Dev's designed the game to be played...

Unless there is a /macro ability built in the game, I consider macroing a form of cheating.

True you could be right about lands being guarded by so many npc guards it would make it quite difficult to kill macroers. Of course if they had npc hirelings and those are the only guards they have that pose a threat it can be assumed that a team of 4 that wants to go kill and loot macroers (hehe farm macroers, i love the sound of that) will in no way be hindered by a few npc hirelings. However if it means having to start an all out war to kill a few macroers your right it wont be viable.

Anyways about the whole "player skill" versus "character skill". Character skill will still play an integral part. Its not like its going to be 90% player skill 5% gear and 5% character skill. I'd say to be able to call this game an rpg character skill will have to be at least 30% of the game, gear 10-20% and player skill/group tactics 50-60%. I however don't see alot of people macroing to get character skill but rather just to farm for mats, if the soft cap will be based on an exponential function, then skilling up to a certain point will be relatively easy for everyone and then become extremely long fast to the point where even macroing wont be feasible (1 month to raise a skill by half :P).

More importantly in any war consumables, surplus armour, surplus weaponry, siege weapons are all going to be a must. I see many macroing simply to avoid having to do all that farming rather than to skill up.

[Veilroth]

I've never cared for macroing, never tried, it never cought my intrest, I don't know what it does or what it's good for and I don't even know how to macro.

...And I don't want to, so don't bother telling me either :P

[waffleninja]

Be kinda hard for us non-stealther types out there if the macroers are doing it inside a guild-controlled area wouldn't it?

Or maybe there will be guards that have "see hidden" abilities and the macroers will just stick their toons behind them when they go afk... along with any Npcs they may have hired.

Merely stating that killing Macroers will be easy is really going out on a limb, imo.

Am I the only one that thinks the people who are for macroing in any guise... are also the people who like to hide behind their characters abilities and not their own skill at playing the game? It's kind of crutch-like when you think about it... that they'd have to stoop to macroing at all while lots of other players out there find it unnecessary and rightfully rely on their skill to play their characters the way the Dev's designed the game to be played...

Unless there is a /macro ability built in the game, I consider macroing a form of cheating.

so because you suck and cant do anything about it that makes it cheating

THE TRUTH SHALL SET US FREE

[Falt]

so because you suck and cant do anything about it that makes it cheating

Umm yeah, it does. Like I said, unless there's a /macro feature in place, (which would mean the Dev's themselves intended and designed the game for everyone to have the ability to do it from the getgo)... it's a form of cheating.

The people claiming they do it (macro) to get to "play the game" are such hypocrites and don't even realize it; by macroing skills/spells/whatever, they're skipping the "game" they're claiming to play. It's like installing Morrowind and 5 seconds later entering the lvl 50 code... you haven't played the game, experienced what the Developers toiled over for months/years in crafting.

If anything it'd be an injustice to them more then other players.

And saying I suck for bringing up a valid point regarding macroing when all you've personally added to the discussion in this thread is the customary: "u can kil macroers though, huhuhu!" ... is amusing.

Not everyone is going to roll stealthers and/or wall climbers to get to the macroers to kill them if they're inside a city, and more then likely if they're doing it around guards it will become impossible to kill them... effectively making the "U can kill them" ideology pointless.

[paade]

macroers give every fucking time the same excuse for macroing: i dont have time to play 8 hours a day so i must macro to be able to compete!
Go cry more you fucking tards! Why the fuck you play a game that you dont have time to play?! There are plenty of FPS games out there, pure pvp, no grind and no need to spend half a day if you dont want to.
When DFO comes out, ive estimated that i have about 1-3 hour /day to play it (ill have a job and studies to do, not much free time there). Will i macro or cry about it if some 20/7 pwns me? No. Its that simple. Macroers are just another breed of carebears, people that want everything handed to them on a plate.

Heres some /cheese for you macrobear.

[kiegh]

One would think that since the Developers have said they will not tolerate cheating in the form of aimbotting and the likes, and they are going to have cheat detection in, macroing and botting will also not be tolerated.

[Black_Iron]

I think there are alot of knee jerk love/hate macro responses.

Think about what makes macroing attractive/necessary.


If the crafting interface is clumsy or cumbersome you want a robochef (All references AC1) to do the drudgery of making stuff.

Persistant game worlds are all about resource areas.

If the game gives benefits to clans who aggressively hold these areas then macroing will not be necessary. Otherwise, being able to macro/benefit is the reward or value of being in control of resource areas.

I hope the game system can provide rewards without needing intensive macro systems.

On the topic of macro reporting, I would be alot more pissed off about a speed hack, fast cast or a multi attack/insta full power hack than just xp macroing.

Killing afk macro's on another clans turf is very sweet....

getting killed by hack/exploits is what really kills enjoyment.

So...

Lets wait and see what the game delivers before we decide.

Todd

[Blackie_Chan]

I don't bot, never ran cheat programs, however that said I don't care about people macroing. Difference of course being macroing tradeskills mostly. Now I know alot of you don't feel that way. My personal reason is that while it does hurt having just purely dedicated crafters in game cause after some point anyone can farm mats and then macro after hours, however that is my exact point.

1) Tradeskills are important whether you have dedicated crafters in your guild or not. The ability to craft some items for yourself at any time makes for a much easier time playing, and allows you to play in off peak time periods (especially if items are stockpiled in certain guildies banks).

2) I love to PvP and do some PvE activities. Therefore, tradeskills are harder to fit in, when you have alot of RL conflicts. Given the situation of #1, it makes it alot easier to support myself if i did macro.

3) The macroer assumes risk. Because he is not there, it is possible for him to get killed and looted blind while afk. A risk vs reward always being a thought when you do this.

4) In the situation where you would say this guy could ruin the economy because unlike me he is in game all the time. Well the only truth is that he is joining the economy earlier than just a pure dedicated crafter because he is able to gain trade skills while asleep. However with that time dedicated to play I am sure he wouldn't be that far behind so realistically, macroing for skill didn't make TOOOO much of a difference.


Now im not saying that it should be legal in game. I def am not saying bots, or cheats/hax should be allowed. I am just saying in this specific example its not THAT bad.

[caliph]

Not everyone is going to roll stealthers and/or wall climbers to get to the macroers to kill them if they're inside a city, and more then likely if they're doing it around guards it will become impossible to kill them... effectively making the "U can kill them" ideology pointless.

I hate to tell you but please don't comment on something you have no understanding of. Obviously you don't understand how mmorpgs work, nor do you understand how macro'ing works. I'll try my best to explain this to you in as few words possible.

In all mmorpgs anything that can be farmed and is worth farming will be in areas that are unprotected by NPCs. If you can protect something with NPCs that means its a safe-noob zone and anything that is easy to get because it is in a safe area is worth dick all. Farming the rats inside your city will never be worth anything, and there will not be anything else to farm inside a god damn city. I just don't know how you came to the reasoning that incredibly safe zones will have stuff worth farming, that defeats the purpose of farming in dangerous zones. So killing a macroer will be ridiculously easy once you find him, seeing as he wont be able to defend himself well. The only defence a macro'er will have is hiding. The more remote, obscure place that he farms the less chance he will be caught, ganked, and looted.

Macro'ing can ruin a game, but it is going to happen in this game like it does every game. The devs may be able to patrol it, he'll they may get away with invasion of privacy like WoW has by creating a program that can read everything you do and run on your computer while you play (WoW's program is called Warden by the way). But there not going to catch everyone, and there certainly not going to stop anyone willing to make multiple accounts to macro, so instead their best approach is to design game mechanics to ensure that the sites to farm are fought over constantly so that it makes it difficult to farm without having to PvP. This way macro'ing will be quite difficult as one would have to design a successful bot that can both farm and defend itself against others players (I'd say damn near impossible without hacks).

[KingGigli]

lazy people macro. i have NEVER macroed in my entire life and i find the game more enjoyable.

[caliph]

lazy people macro. i have NEVER macroed in my entire life and i find the game more enjoyable.

Thats cool but your logic is flawed. You've never macroed in your life so theres no way you compare how you find macro'ing in a game to not macro'ing in a game. You have to try something to be able to determine whether you like the previous thing more or less :D

I will definately not bot if this game is set up that all farming will require me to be on my guard at all times and I'll have to fight other people off my lands while farming. However if its just the old fashioned boring, kill mob, loot, kill mob, loot, with nothing to lighten up the day I will be a botting fiend and I have no problem with others botting either. Look for me if you want a botter to gank and loot.

Currently I bot WoW characters to 60 and sell them lol

[Rhynn]

"Will not macro, and will kill macroers" was convienently left off the choices.

Chalk me down as "killing macroers".

[Falt]

I hate to tell you but please don't comment on something you have no understanding of. Obviously you don't understand how mmorpgs work, nor do you understand how macro'ing works. I'll try my best to explain this to you in as few words possible.

Rofl, agreeing in one post and condescending in another... classy. Then again you are that guy that joined all those guilds for whatever reason... so yeah...

I won't get into a pissing contest with you regarding the "no understanding" comment you made... (as I think it's a foolish practice), but you can take my word for it that I'm probably more of an "Mmorpg Veteran" then you are. And I don't say that idley.

In all mmorpgs anything that can be farmed and is worth farming will be in areas that are unprotected by NPCs.

Incorrect. Crafters immediately spring to my mind, and if DFO institutes some kind of "sparring" feature (or just allows skills to always go up when someone is attacking/defending, regardless of association with one another)... then behind NPC's they go.

If you can protect something with NPCs that means its a safe-noob zone and anything that is easy to get because it is in a safe area is worth dick all.

You claim I know nothing about Mmorpgs and yet you make a statement like this? I think it's safe for me to assume your definition of macroing involves more farming for gear then raising skills up... you can Macro to Farm items/xp/cash off mobs, sure... but Macroing skills up is another kettle of fish entirely, and you seem to not grasp that.

Guards ='s NPC's, yeah. Starting/Racial Capitals = N00b zones, yup. Guild Cities don't = n00b zones. Guards in player cities + players skilling up off each other using a Macro program ='s what I'm talking about, not farming gear/gold off mobs. Nuff said.

Farming the rats inside your city will never be worth anything, and there will not be anything else to farm inside a god damn city.

You're looking at it from a mob standpoint, not a player standpoint. What's to stop a group of players within a guild from just standing their characters in houses all night slashing each other with daggers/swords/axes/whatever... to continually raise the skill: IE macroing?

Like I said a couple of times now, if they're inside a building guarded by guards... just saying: "Oh well you can kill them!" ... doesn't apply. You'd have to first get to them to kill them, and lots of guards may make that simply impossible... or at the very least highly improbable.

And in a game where player guilds and how strong they are decide a lot of what's going on with the world, I think Macroing (in the way I've discussed it), could ruin the balance and force EVERYONE who wants to remain competitive to do it. Something that would be incredibly ghey.

I just don't know how you came to the reasoning that incredibly safe zones will have stuff worth farming, that defeats the purpose of farming in dangerous zones.

I don't know how you instantly assumed I was talking about farming mobs and not other players. Reading comprehension 4tw. Farming mobs + macroing are 2 completely different things in an Mmorpg; since there are no levels in this game, however... I don't think there will be "powerlevel macroing" going on. Item farming + gold farming, sure... but if anyone Macros to do it they of course are going to run the risk of getting killed... because mobs aren't going to be guarded by Guards.

However if they allow skilling-up via hitting/casting on other players... then what I've been discussing the WHOLE thread is a concern.

So killing a macroer will be ridiculously easy once you find him, seeing as he wont be able to defend himself well.

Uh-huh. Something tells me you wouldn't think so if you knew a clan had people hitting one another/casting on one another... behind their castles walls with guards stationed all around them... while you and I might've had to go out and fight mobs to skill up. See the problem? If not... I feel bad for ya.

The only defence a macro'er will have is hiding. The more remote, obscure place that he farms the less chance he will be caught, ganked, and looted.

You're again confusing item farming with Macroing. While Macroing can be applied to farming items, in my posts I've always been applying it to raising a characters skill levels up without the risk and/or need to leave the safety of being behind a player-cities' guards.

Macro'ing can ruin a game, but it is going to happen in this game like it does every game.

So you're convinced then that macroing is going to happen in the game AND ruin it? Lovely optimism there. Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with part of the statement... however I'm also hopefull that the Devs take a very hard approach to cheating (which is what Macroing is).

The devs may be able to patrol it, he'll they may get away with invasion of privacy like WoW has by creating a program that can read everything you do and run on your computer while you play (WoW's program is called Warden by the way).

Since DFO is going to have an ingame browser... why not have some kind of program running with DFO to make sure cheating isn't done? You shouldn't be doing your banking or other super personal things while playing an online game anyways, heh.

But there not going to catch everyone, and there certainly not going to stop anyone willing to make multiple accounts to macro

Hope you're wrong on this point but I'm not naive enough to think opposite of your view.

so instead their best approach is to design game mechanics to ensure that the sites to farm are fought over constantly so that it makes it difficult to farm without having to PvP.

Yeah. Forcing guards to path and not remain stationary at a players descretion would be a great hinderance. There could be other things to, (like only allowing so much skill to be learned off of other players...). Hopefully the Devs have already come up with some ways to prevent it (macroing off other players) from become commonplace.

This way macro'ing will be quite difficult as one would have to design a successful bot that can both farm and defend itself against others players (I'd say damn near impossible without hacks).

Outside a city fighting mobs, yeah. Not inside a city under the protection of guards.

Wow, that's one long post. :cool:

[Xinnro]

I wont report them..Reporting is pretty gay..

but don't like macros and will grief the hell out of them.

+ i hope the devs put something in the game to prevent macroers.


Caught once = Perma Ban from game

Problem Solved.

[Rhime]

On DAoC...check it out http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/4495 Seems they do frown upon cheaters(yep, macroing is cheating)[QUOTE=Sidabras]Hum, some people just like to"Unleash" the power of directX applications. Look at DAoC. There are groups of very talent programmers, some with an affinity for "Wyverns", that make it there job to write mods for games. Look at the number of people that run these programs in DAoC. Look at the stuff they have made, radar, cash farming bots, leveling bots etc.

Look at the pve overhead in getting a lvl50 in DAoC, pretty high. Now the Devs in DF say that getting a pvp viable character in DF will be pretty low pve overhead. So, even if you get banned, not that big of a deal to reroll.

Erik

[caliph]

Hehe Falt. Now your points make more sense to me and they are valid in the case of skilling up as you admitted. My guess though is the devs have foreseen this and reacted in one of two ways. A: they've made it so you can only skill up off of mobs like WoW. or B: they've made it so that the difference between having 30 skill lines trained and 60 skill lines trained is so minimal that it wouldnt be worth macro'ing. I come to my conclusion on point B through this logic: since the devs say that 4 completely or near-completely unskilled characters will be able to take out one uber-skilled character (only talking number skills not actual player skill), having hundreds of skills it would logically follow won't give you the edge in the battle to be amazing. Of course this could be very well wrong and if so the devs could just opt to use option A over B. When it comes to macro'ing the important concern is macro'ing to farm. Macro'ing to skill up or level up in any game tends not to have as large of an effect upon gameplay as macro'ing to farm items (of course in DF it could be very well different as this will be a hugely pvp-based game and your point is well taken). The real threat is in causing a major economic imbalance in the game to the point where everyone has to either macro to make money or just accept being dirt poor and quit the game.

[Nevr]

That's the problem with macro'ing. It's like steroids in major sport's leagues. If others have them and you don't, your at a disadvantage, plain and simple. Therefore everyone starts using them.

So, to curve this trend, macro'ing should be PERMABAN FROM DAY 1.

[Reigngod]

Im completely against "Infinity" Macros(Keeps cycling without any player interaction).

I Macro'd a little bit in UO and realized i was quickly getting bored with the game because my skills, my gold, everything was pretty much handed to me. Makes playing the game pretty pointless as you really arent the one playing and cant take the credit for having a maxxed out toon unless you feel like lying about it to your friends and yourself.

I hate leveling as much as anyone else...which is why if i feel like I HAVE to macro in a game to get to where i need to be...I wont play it...plain and simple.

And also, you'll never be able to catch everyone who macros. Hell, Warcraft banned a buddy of mine for "Macro'ing" when he simply wasnt answering to chat and sat in a spot killing the same camp for an hour or two.

If other people want to macro...fine...let them pay for a game they wont truly play to its intent. Let them have a massive amount of gold. It doesnt hurt me any....I dont need to be rich or have 20 maxxed out characters....I just need enough to buy what I need and a character to PvP and get my money with.

[Falt]

That's the problem with macro'ing. It's like steroids in major sport's leagues. If others have them and you don't, your at a disadvantage, plain and simple. Therefore everyone starts using them.

So, to curve this trend, macro'ing should be PERMABAN FROM DAY 1.

I'm tempted to put that in my signature. Nicely put.

[Falt]

Hehe Falt. Now your points make more sense to me and they are valid in the case of skilling up as you admitted.

Kekekeke. :p

My guess though is the devs have foreseen this and reacted in one of two ways. A: they've made it so you can only skill up off of mobs like WoW.

I'm fairly certain that it's been said somewhere that players can raise their skills just by Pvping, meaning OFF of other players... which would open the door to Macroing in that way. I'm hopeful that there's a hardline that can't be crossed via skilling up off players, despite those out there that seem to just want to avoid killing monsters to do it and stick to players.

I'd rather make sure that Macroing wasn't a possibility then be forced to do it because everyone else is... and fighting the mobs in the stereotypical way the Dev's may have cooked up just isn't possible or practical.

or B: they've made it so that the difference between having 30 skill lines trained and 60 skill lines trained is so minimal that it wouldnt be worth macro'ing.

I highly doubt this point. Imagine a Mage type character mastering all the available spell lines, and then GM-Macroing a Heal line. With top end heals at his/her disposal all the sudden, you can be sure that that would change things come Pvp time.

One of the problems macroing would compound would be the "arms race" of skilling up. While in WoW players might need to farm incessantly for items to remain competitive, in DFO, (with Macroing rampant), players would have to Macro skills to make sure they had at least a chance come Pvp time... otherwise they're up Shits Creek without a paddle as it were. ;)

I come to my conclusion on point B through this logic: since the devs say that 4 completely or near-completely unskilled characters will be able to take out one uber-skilled character (only talking number skills not actual player skill), having hundreds of skills it would logically follow won't give you the edge in the battle to be amazing.

They might be looking at it strictly from the Soft Cap point of view; if someone Macro's their way well beyond the Soft Cap... I'm sure that ideal they have of 4-unskilled characters winning against a character totally skilled up to the Soft Cap... changes. It'd have to as the balancing would be out of whack at that point. And Macroing could feasibly allow it to happen.

Of course this could be very well wrong and if so the devs could just opt to use option A over B. When it comes to macro'ing the important concern is macro'ing to farm.

In previous level-based non-full-l00t games that might've been the case. However since you've already said (righfully so) that Macroers are going to be at the mercy of other players out and about in the countryside while chain killing mobs... then all that precious coin/loot they may get could possibly just wind up in our pockets if we happen upon them. :D

Macro'ing to skill up or level up in any game tends not to have as large of an effect upon gameplay as macro'ing to farm items (of course in DF it could be very well different as this will be a hugely pvp-based game and your point is well taken).

Glad you agree that it could be "very different" in DFO. It could theoretically change the power balance between warring guilds ala one major league team taking steroids (to use Nevr's example) whereas the other isn't on the juice. The team taking the steroids is going to perform better not because of their skill, but because they've got the unfair advantage of being able to "cheat" the soft cap by Macroing their way past it.

I'm not talking about true "god" characters here where someone will Macro every skill (though I wouldn't put it past people...), what I am talking about is someone who would leave their PC on night after night for months "abusing" Macroing and giving themselves whatever advantage they can get... and you KNOW there will be such a person (maybe many people) who would feel compelled to do it.

The real threat is in causing a major economic imbalance in the game to the point where everyone has to either macro to make money or just accept being dirt poor and quit the game.

In past games where l00t played larger parts, maybe. Gold WILL find it's way onto Ebay, I have very little doubt... what concerns me the most is that us players will have no true recourse (due to the way the game is setup) in stopping Macroers from raising their skills inside guilds cities. Gold + item farmers will always be prone to attacks, so they'd very well be capable of defending themselves... but macroing behind guards in a guild city... that's a concern that can't simply be overlooked imo.

[caliph]

I hear ya now Falt. Your points are all very well taken and furthermore I agree with them. Your absolutely right with regards to if there was just an ounce of an advantage that one could get by macro'ing 6000 hours in their sleep to skill up it'd be done. So we gotta trust the devs know what their doing on this one :D

The whole caught once = permaban from the game still isnt enough of a detterant. Thats been proven by WoW. In this game where you won't even have to grind out levels botting will especially not be stopped by this. The way I see it, the outdoor game mechanics must make it very easy to find and catch botters. Not necessarily by tracking them down, but rather by just seeing them by pure chance and ganking them for all their precious loot. Make it so botting doesnt pay and problems solved. If however the world is so big that a botter can pick some remote place and farm in the safety of being so distant from the rest of the population botting will be a lot harder to control.

[GarretEB]

I personally do not think its ridiculous to want to macro something tedious like working a skill, if you need to sit in a bakery and combine bread ingrediants over and over to gain cooking skill why not macro it? How has this impacted the game of people who are against macroing?

Its not depriving you of the abilty to gain the same skill at the same rate, or use the same trade or pvp skill. It does mean that some people who may not have the time or inclination to pound there head against the wall fishing or cooking or training anatomy will be equal in skill level to you. But I dont see how this hinders your game enjoyment. From the way alot of people think the player who macros a skill has cheated themselves out of a game experience.

Let me ask this, do you have anthing against someone who macroes attended? Sits there and watches the game the entire time, but earns skill through a program pre set up to work the skill for them. They just cant handle pointing and clicking for extended periods of time. Is it a simple matter of "THOU SHALT CLICK FOR THYSELF"

I personally have no issue whatsoever with attended macroing, I can see arguing against unattended as the player is not putting in the time. But if I simply cannot stand sewing or fishing or mining manually why not have my pc do it for me and not get Carpal Tunnel

[Falt]

I personally do not think its ridiculous to want to macro something tedious like working a skill, if you need to sit in a bakery and combine bread ingrediants over and over to gain cooking skill why not macro it? How has this impacted the game of people who are against macroing?

Because it's cheating? What makes the macroers so damn special that they can't level their skills the way the Dev's intended (through actually PLAYING the game) like everyone else?

Its not depriving you of the abilty to gain the same skill at the same rate, or use the same trade or pvp skill.

Maybe not, but in turn it would basically force you to Macro to remain competitive... which you may be ok with but a lot of us aren't. I'd rather fights be decided by player skill, not a player's skill at using/inventing the sweetest Macro + using it to circumnavigate the soft cap (which effects everyone playing).

I dunno about you, but feeling forced to lamely Macro to make sure I'm not behind a game's curve is probably worse then feeling forced to Pve raid dungeons for loot; at least with the raiding I'm experiencing and playing the game... whereas if I Macroed some program would be doing all the stuff for me (which is retarded in my view).

It does mean that some people who may not have the time or inclination to pound there head against the wall fishing or cooking or training anatomy will be equal in skill level to you.

What makes them so special that they can't just play the game the way the Dev's designed it? If the design is "boring" as so many Macroers claim, well then the game itself must be boring... as a game is made up part and parcel of all the features within it, afterall. Crafting + tradeskills included.

But I dont see how this hinders your game enjoyment. From the way alot of people think the player who macros a skill has cheated themselves out of a game experience.

An arms race of skilling up would certainly curtail my enjoyment of the game. While I get your comment about Macroers "cheating themselves" out of a game experience, you should also recognize that they'd be cheating the rest of us out of a "fair competition" by bypassing the necessary in-game curve for skilling up. The Devs aren't going to design their game for Macroes, but for players whom actually play the game. Anything that goes outside that realm is potentially unbalancing.

Let me ask this, do you have anthing against someone who macroes attended? Sits there and watches the game the entire time, but earns skill through a program pre set up to work the skill for them. They just cant handle pointing and clicking for extended periods of time. Is it a simple matter of "THOU SHALT CLICK FOR THYSELF"

You're splitting hairs here. Any kind of program that does something for the players in-game (that isn't released or endorsed by the Devs) is a form of cheating in my book. Meaning unless the Dev's said: "There is a /macro command for those out there that think our crafting is a particularly boring process."... it'd be cheating (because you're cheating the game).

I personally have no issue whatsoever with attended macroing, I can see arguing against unattended as the player is not putting in the time. But if I simply cannot stand sewing or fishing or mining manually why not have my pc do it for me and not get Carpal Tunnel

Simple: Don't take up the tradeskills if you find them boring. Or, do them in moderation and slowly work your skills up over time (which is how it should be).

I ask you: Why bother skilling them up in the first place if all you're doing it for is to see them listed on your character sheet as GMed? Isn't part of playing a game the journey of getting somewhere... watching how your character progresses (under your control), and not just the end result?

It's like playing Super Mario Brothers 3 and having both warp whistles to teleport to Bowsers castle (without seeing any of the hundreds of stages in between). You may end up where you want to go, but at the cost of experiencing (and playing) the game the way the Dev's intended... aka cheating.

[GarretEB]

Ohh I agree its certainly cheating, I just dont see how it detracts from your game experience if someone else Gms baking while watching an attended macro vs clicking manually.

I wouldnt argue that macroing is right, or ethical or should be done, I just dont see the harm in it in some cases.

[Falt]

Ohh I agree its certainly cheating, I just dont see how it detracts from your game experience if someone else Gms baking while watching an attended macro vs clicking manually.

You're using "Baking" as your example... but what would happen if they GMed Healing, or Damage Absorbing spells. Suddenly you'd wind up facing a much more versatile opponent (skill wise) then yourself; you stopped at the skill cap because going past it just isn't feasible (without Macros)... but your opponent who Macros has no such restrictions.

Do you see the issue allowing it in the game could create if it wasn't in check? It would become the MANDATORY thing for everyone to do after a certain point, otherwise you'd be gimp compared to those that did.

The soft cap is there for a reason: balancing. If people start to macro past it, then suddenly it's not the restriction it was intended to be. Which is my whole worry and argument. :cool:

I wouldnt argue that macroing is right, or ethical or should be done, I just dont see the harm in it in some cases.

My point to you is either put some kind of /macro command in the game that will effectively level the playing field in that regard. If Player A follows the game's design and becomes a GMed Swordsman by doing it in a way the Dev's built the game... while Player B just sits his character in a guild house protected by guards smacking another player for a few nights to GM his Swords skill: Why would anyone want to do it the "traditional" way at all? Any sane person would be forced to macro at that point, which would in turn take away the "freedom" of how people would be able to skill up their characters.

I'm against anything that would theoretically take away my freedom on how I want to skill up my character, (especially if it winds up going against how the game was designed in the first place).

All players should have an equal chance; Macroers shouldn't be able to just GM a skill that some other player out there who puts actual time and effort behind what he/she does in-game and by doing it in the way the Devs intended.

Quite a few players (mostly known as Powergamers) take their gaming serious to the point where any advantage, no matter how slight it may seem to you or me, WILL be exploited by them. If there is a way to give them even a .0005% chance at beating you, then they will.

Since the game has no levels, you can't balance it that way... the game is based on skills and leveling them up towards the soft cap. With Macroing rampant, you can be absolutely certain that the soft cap will become a joke and the game unbalanced. I don't think I can put it any better then that.

The only way a games Dev's can make sure that Macroing won't make the soft cap on skills a joke is by taking a hardline against Macroers by perma-banning them.

[GarretEB]

Well hopfully the devs can make it a non issue, by either making skilling your character enjoyable, or making impossible to macro. I wouldnt mind manual skilling everything if its dynamic and fun, vs the equivilent to online based factory work.

[Nevr]

Well hopfully the devs can make it a non issue, by either making skilling your character enjoyable, or making impossible to macro. I wouldnt mind manual skilling everything if its dynamic and fun, vs the equivilent to online based factory work.

I think BOTH of them are necessary, not either or. People WILL make macros. There are some talented people out there that your just not going to stop from decoding and altering the game (scripting), even if there is no widely used 3rd party application.

But, to keep the problem isolated to those who have the know how and balls to actually do this kind of thing, first and foremost the game must in itself discourage macro's. If you can gain skills 90% as fast as someone macro'ing, AND still have fun while doing so, then it becomes almost a non-issue. (especially if the program costs money - *cough* UO *cough*)

And the icing on the cake is the permaban. The reality is, if macro'ing is allowed to propagate, it will become very hard to catch everyone doing it. Therefore, the FEAR of the penalty, not the penalty itself must stem the tide. You've got to make the players think, "Well, I REALLY want those 4 extra skill points in archery, but is it worth possibly NEVER getting to play again?"

And Dev's, you MUST MAKE YOURSELVES VERY CLEAR ON THIS MATTER, FROM DAY 1. It should be in BIG GLOWING LETTERS at the top of the EULA, whatever you decide. Therefore whenever you do catch someone, there are no excuses.

[M]

I dont forsee Macro's being very logical for this game... with there being no auto-target locking then there can be no bot running from mob to mob killing... A person macroing would have to be fairly stationary and thus would not achieve much. Also with this being a pvp game if I see a person standing still swinging a sword constantly as mobs approach him to be killed then I will simply step into his sword so that he gets the first hit and is killable without an allignment hit on my part... then take a couple steps back pull out my bow or wand and blast the shit out of him... a bot wont do much good swinging a sword at the spawn point. :ninja:

[tadashi]

I dont think the original poster is specific enough with the poll. There is using macros so that you can kill mobs or advance skills while AFK. That will kill games and I hate it.

Then there are macros that help you manage a fight by recasting a buff every so often or placing a series of skills together in a combination you commonly use. I have no problem with these. I mean why tie up space on your bar with 4 skills when youre only gonna use them at the same time anyway? Why not put those chain skills into a macro and let it fly?

[ShadowKnoll]

no piont in macros in this game ... its just gonig to give an ill gotten avantage to thoughs who use them... its all skill baised and you have to do things to get better macros will just make it fact and no piont to do anything else but macros.. lol

[Reigngod]

I dont think the original poster is specific enough with the poll. There is using macros so that you can kill mobs or advance skills while AFK. That will kill games and I hate it.

Then there are macros that help you manage a fight by recasting a buff every so often or placing a series of skills together in a combination you commonly use. I have no problem with these. I mean why tie up space on your bar with 4 skills when youre only gonna use them at the same time anyway? Why not put those chain skills into a macro and let it fly?

I have no quams with binding skills together either as long as it isnt able to be a constant chain circulating itself. Example: I want my numberpad "7" key to put me into a certain stance, and buff me so Im set up to fight a rogue. That way if i get attacked, I hit my numberpad "7" key and im quickly set up for the fight.

It is the unattended macros that loop themselves which becomes a problem.

[Naco]

I pefer to use my keyborad to move an jump. an click my skills with my mouse. i seem to go more smothly that way. i hopeing there is a way to set the controls in the game so i do not have to use mouse only to move. cause with the mouse's they have out now. i can move my mouse around the screen and click 8 dif skills by the time anyone clicks an use's there lil macro buttons. pluss i will be able to move an run behind trees to cancel there spells. So no i will not be macroing.

[waffleninja]

Okay, there is a problem with banning people for macroing. People will get banned who are not really macroing, and people will get away with macroing too (find an awesome spot and macro a noobie for two months straight, then never again).

This flaw goes back to the basics of programming. Having the devs patrol is a cheap way out of making a well designed game. Doing things like this ruined AC (eg. timers for recalling, logging, and jumping which were cheap ways out of adressing the real problem), and I don't want it to happen to darkfall before it even starts.

Programmers who make enemies out of their users should find another job, and possibly die. I am not a programmer btw.

I saw a video about darkfall, where it said you are free to X, you are free to Y, you are free to Z. How about you are free to get banned for playing darkfall? Would that be a better slogan?

[Lethn]

The great thing is about this is when Darkfall goes live we won't even need to report them to GMs because we can just kill them and take all the stuff they've earned haahahh! :p

[escarondito]

wat exactly does the term macro mean?

[Syrcaendr]

I agree with Falt... based on the little I know of Darkfall so far, macroing or not should be a moot point if the game is based on skill and has no levels. It sounds like the devs are focusing on PvP and a player-based econo-political system. You can't macro those things. If people are able to macro skill gains or farming I don't really care, that's up to them. It looks like macroers won't have an advantage anyway.

[lawlerz]

Macroing depends on the game itself. If I need to raise my skills to compete, I will macro them until I can compete. If I can jump right in and be competetive, there is no point in macroing. Don't hate the macroer, hate the developer who made me have to macro to compete.

[Rizzit]

G15 + Lachesis = Phear my 1337 skillz

if (admin) {ban}
stop(pwnage) {}
else if (banfalse) {}
continue(pwnage) {}

[dyndragon]

I think there are alot of knee jerk love/hate macro responses.

Think about what makes macroing attractive/necessary.


If the crafting interface is clumsy or cumbersome you want a robochef (All references AC1) to do the drudgery of making stuff.

Persistant game worlds are all about resource areas.

If the game gives benefits to clans who aggressively hold these areas then macroing will not be necessary. Otherwise, being able to macro/benefit is the reward or value of being in control of resource areas.

I hope the game system can provide rewards without needing intensive macro systems.

On the topic of macro reporting, I would be alot more pissed off about a speed hack, fast cast or a multi attack/insta full power hack than just xp macroing.

Killing afk macro's on another clans turf is very sweet....

getting killed by hack/exploits is what really kills enjoyment.

So...

Lets wait and see what the game delivers before we decide.

Todd

I'm with him. Personally, I'm hoping that macroing is not allowed and the rule is strictly enforced. The poll is definitely missing the "Won't macro, KOS macroers" option. It is true however, that there are ways to make games rewarding (albeit in a smaller way) without making skilling up via macroing or normally a necessity.

[Deja vu]

this poll really needed an I don't care option. Or an option that says I will weight and see how it works in game and what the GMs/CSRs think of it.

[Kraznor]

The biggest reason a lot of people macro is to "keep up" with both the players who are online 20/7 and the others who also macro. If the developers want to squash it, they need to take a very hardline anti-macro policy and ban the shit out of people for doing it. Not just IP ban, or account banning, but denying service to their person (via social security number, name, or credit card information). If they don't take the necessary steps to stop macroing, it will become rampant... and I'll be damned if I'm going to be gimped compared to some shithead who macros and comes around just to grief me and my guild. I have no qualms putting the enemy's tools into use.

I certainly hope they either go after macroers, or just say "it's ok to macro"... I'd hate to be stuck in the moral dillema of the devs saying "Don't do it" and the people who DO it just get away with it. That's ridiculous, and it punishes the people who follow the rules.

Welcome to society. :bang:

Saying that "oh my enemy does it, so I'm going to do it" doesn't make you any less a cheater. If the devs state that it's not allowed, then anyone who does it is a cheater, whatever their motivation.

I guess you'd think it's ok to rob a liquor store because the crooks in your neighborhood get away with it, right? I mean, it's not wrong if the authorities don't enforce it enough for your satisfaction, right??? That makes it ok, doesn't it??

People like you throw away their integrity and justify it any way they can. Yes, it's just a game, but integrity applies to everything in life and how you can do the right thing no matter what others are doing.

[IcePillow]

this poll really needed an I don't care option.

Yah!

[Weaponsx]

/bump

[Navimel]

burp

[Lachrymose]

there's no better feeling than going to sleep a total newb and waking up a 7x gm :D

[Psyki]

Macroing ruins games... plain and simple, damn straight I'll report macro'ers instantly.

[Parkinsons]

I'm personally not going to macro but I don't care if people do it. In fact I want more skilled crafters to bring down the price and bring up the quality of good. I want to win a PvP encounter because I was more skilled, not because I have more time to play.

Darkfall is an open sandbox game. You do what you want and I do what I want. If you want to skip the parts you don't care for then go ahead.

[Largion]

I wont macro my first char but if i they would ban me or something i would macro up a new chat if I could.

[Shoku]

For all of the info we've got about not grinding, it seems you guys are still freaking out about having to grind, sure you'll have to a little for skills but, is it really that bad? Grinding, imo, is the gift and a curse of mmos.

Macro users are cheaters, reporting will be in order.

[schwiz]

lol can everyone who voted against honestly say the never macroed in UO, give me a break everyone was doing it. I hope the devs are for it, and actually build in some nice tools to make it fair to everyone.

[mefistofelis]

if macroing will be allowed, i dont think i'll play darkfall.... hard, but noting i hate more than macroing

Me too!!!

[Ferociter]

Tasos mentioned games such as Counter-strike and Quake as references regarding crouch and prone postitons.

That's a plus for macro enthusiasts.

[Byggin]

Macroing will take ingenuity in DFO, no safe zones and dynamic spawning. Crafting will probably be pretty easy to macro, but thats it.

[Fardoche]

I don't think macroing will be easy to do in a game where you cannot target the mobs, but I found someone macroing I will report him to the GM for sure

[Erroneous]

Play to win right, macroing is going to happen, there will be more aggressive expliters to fry.

[Ghostpaw]

How can you even tell if someone is macroing? Hearing the responses here makes me think of this situation.
http://www.clichequest.com/index.php?pos=227