The BIG weaponsmithing mastery issue

[rinkanu]

More and more players get their crafting skills up and buy their mastery they realize they have just hit a brick wall.

As far as weaponsmithing goes there are several problems that prevent any leveling in the mastery.

The first issue is the shear number of crafts needed to get an increase and the cost of these.

4-5 rank 40 1h swords are needed to get a 0.1 increase right from the start , each of these crafts roughly costs 300g in crafting fee + materials.
this comes to an awesome sum of 12k gold minimum for 1 point in the mastery.. wich i think anyone can realize is madness and it seems armorsmiths have it even worse.


But in a way the cost isnt the biggest problem , the crafts not only cost alot but they are also almost useless due to their quality.

As it stands now , weapons upto rank 30 have their damage modifier derived from the standard weaponsmithing skill.
The higher the skill the higher the dmg modifiers of your crafted weapons, this makes it so that rank 30 crafted weapons usually equal or surpass rank 40 weapons dropped of monsters.

BUT this is where rank 40 crafted weapons get utterly screwed! since r40's derive their dmg modifier from the MASTERY skill (wich will be 1 when you open em up) they have worse damage then the rank 30's the same smith will make...

This renders leveling the mastery a hellish process since you will be making extremely expensive that offer no return since not a single player will buy them because :

A: players will just kill mobs and get free r40's that do the same damage at a fraction of the fraction of the cost.

B: he will prefer a rank 30 crafted since its cheaper and better.

THE SOLUTION

Make it so that r40's get their dmg from the standard skill and not the mastery.
players will want the crafted r40's and so indirectly help the smiths lvl , by the time the smith hits 25 mastery the rank 50's will have a crafting bonus and evryone is happy.

[Thorpeyrox]

Maybe it's not intended to be done over night or during the week for that matter, if everything was easy to max out this game would die before it even got started.

[Leg enD]

he's not saying about the time it takes to rank up. at least not specificaly

he does have a point though. asuming the whole 'crafter rank adds to damage multiplyer' thing is correct (makes sense to me although i have not tested or inquired to how it works)

[Katanaa]

Maybe it's not intended to be done over night or during the week for that matter, if everything was easy to max out this game would die before it even got started.

well yeah but it seems like overkill imo. I'm all for the process not being able to be min/maxed in a week but the way it looks it will take MONTHS. i think this game should have more to look forward to than a grind, and a very expensive one at that.

[shansiro]

enjoy the slow rates.

here is another:

"WHY CANT I BE THE FIRST TO HIT 100 IN MASTERY" ? thread


/play for fun freaks :D

[Hellmoob]

enjoy the slow rates.

here is another:

"WHY CANT I BE THE FIRST TO HIT 100 IN MASTERY" ? thread


/play for fun freaks :D

Read the OP. I can go solo a minotaur (haha, advanced mob AI) for a better rank 40 axe than our mastery crafter can make for a small fortune in mats and gold. I'll also get gold, enough leather for a full studded set, a chance at plate armour, and occasionally even a steedgrass.

Now d'you see why your post is stupid?

[Charlotte]

Maybe it's not intended to be done over night or during the week for that matter, if everything was easy to max out this game would die before it even got started.

But at the very least you can see the plight, working the mastery skill has no benefits until at least 25.0 skill, which is about 300,000 gold. There is not doubt it is intended to be a slow and grueling process, but the problem is that it is 300,000 down the drain as the R40s truly, really, truly are useless compared to the R30s with 100.0 skill. What he is suggesting is not to make the skill easier, but to make the R40s damage based off the initial skill. It is still a ridiculous goldsink, it's just not a useless one.

We are all very quickly coming to the realization that Crafting Mastery is quite pointedly, quite aptly, a huge goldsink and a huge time investment. No one doubts this.

It was estimated that to get a Crafting Mastery to 100 it takes about 1.3 million to 2.0 million gold. I've also been told that 1000 gold an hour is an high intake. If one were to farm gold solely at a rate of 1000 gold an hour, assume 1.6 million in costs, it would take 66.6 days of straight farming to get enough gold to master a mastery skill, this doesn't count the turning of that gold into resources, so let's put another 2-3 days into that, and the actual time spent sitting there clicking the button, which has been estimated at 5.75 days without the time spent walking back and forth from the back. Looking at this you're looking at about 75 days of pure play to get a single mastery skill. Considering the average human probably maxes out at maybe 8.0 hours a day, it would take the average mortal, if they played every day and with diligence only focusing on a bow mastery skill, 225 days to get a mastery for a crafting skill. But since this person doesn't exist, let's just put it at a little over a year. Clearly these skills are intended for a clan to have one designated master crafter of each type. We aren't disputing that.

The problem I have is that it appears that for at least the first fourth of that skill, the skill appears to be really, truly useless. I can't say about consecutive levels, but my hope is that at the 25.0 mark the shit you can make is useful, otherwise it is doubtful you will ever see someone attain a mastery. This is, after all, a game, and who wants to say that they spent a year of their life getting a crafting mastery skill in a game?

[day day]

The OP is QQ'ing about making shit bows at lvl 1...
Did anyone else find this strange? Maybe he's just not cut out for mastery. Learn the patience of time and effort and learn to play for fun. If you're grinding then you're playing wrong, unless you enjoy grinding, then grind till you cant grind anymore. Doesn't seem you like grinding though.... easiest solution.... don't grind, make weapons when you need them.

The only brick wall you face is the one you create in your mind because you can't realize that some things in-game take time and effort

[Deveon]

Maybe weaponsmithing mastery is perfect, and the problem they need to fix is the monsters around the world not providing enough challenge, or lower dropsrates from the mobs at the very least?

Otherwise IMO they should lower crafting costs across the board - again. :sly:


I would prefer that mob drop rates were lowered for a higher value in equipment, guess there's even better solutions that I havn't thought of too.. anyway.. It's a problem needing fixing =)

[Charlotte]

The OP is QQ'ing about making shit bows at lvl 1...
Did anyone else find this strange? Maybe he's just not cut out for mastery. Learn the patience of time and effort and learn to play for fun. If you're grinding then you're playing wrong, unless you enjoy grinding, then grind till you cant grind anymore. Doesn't seem you like grinding though.... easiest solution.... don't grind, make weapons when you need them.

The only brick wall you face is the one you create in your mind because you can't realize that some things in-game take time and effort

I took the time to play some math for you, so if you're unaware, if you don't grind a mastery skill you will never get it to 100.0 because of how MONSTROUSLY slow it is. We're talking it puts working oldschool Magic Resist in UO to shame, by far. And if you don't grind it it will likely take you years to get it up, YEARS. I don't know what you expect this game's lifecycle to be, but I imagine if it stays the way it is there won't be a single person with a mastery, and consequently, not a single person with a race weapon, before the game has seen its end.

[PKSinister]

My suggestion which would help with this:

To add and help with the crafted weapons market, double the current durability given on all crafted weapons. Also increase the damage bonus on crafted weapons up to a point where a weapon crafted by a 100 skill crafter will have 20% more damage over monster loot weapons (or decrease the damage modifier on dropped weapons, same result). The result would be a 100 skill weaponsmith could make a rank 30 greatsword with 150 durability (at 0 trueforge skill) with a damage modifier of 0.62, that same sword dropped by a monster would have only 75 durability and 0.52 damage. Throw in the trueforge armor skill at max level and a weaponsmith will be able to make weapons with up to 300 durability.

This would benefit the rank 40 weapons aswell, you'd be crafting them with 150-300 dur depending on your trueforge skill and they'd have 20% more damage than npc dropped, and no forgetting npc dropped only starts with about 70 dur aswell. One thing though, the sudden price increase from rank 30 to rank 40 weapons is a bit steep and that's why I only use crafted rank 30 weapons.

This is coming from someone who has 100 greatsword skill and still breaks through 105 durability on rank 30 greatswords after just 20 minutes of swinging.

[Azzerhoden]

While I understand your issue, I am afraid I disagree with your proposed solution. A weaponsmith (or armorsmith) learning the advanced skill is a continuation of the smiths skill level. As such having the potential skill modifier based just on advanced weaponsmithing is wrong (as you pointed out), but basing it on basic smith skill is also wrong.

The bonus should be calculated based on the basic smith skill plus the advanced skill. An appropriate adjustment can certainly be made to keep things balanced, of course. But the skills are concurrent, not exclusive.

BTW- I am not a weaponsmith. My craft of choice does not have an advanced skill (that I have found at least!).

[day day]

I took the time to play some math for you, so if you're unaware, if you don't grind a mastery skill you will never get it to 100.0 because of how MONSTROUSLY slow it is. We're talking it puts working oldschool Magic Resist in UO to shame, by far. And if you don't grind it it will likely take you years to get it up, YEARS. I don't know what you expect this game's lifecycle to be, but I imagine if it stays the way it is there won't be a single person with a mastery, and consequently, not a single person with a race weapon, before the game has seen its end.

The act of mastering anything can take years of practice. Mastering something in a month or 3 seems unfair to the long run of the games playability. This game is obviously not intended to be capped within weeks or months, you need to change the way you perceive the game because it's not like other MMO's out there. Don't expect an end game scenario where you max out your skills. Because there is no structured game with some lvl cap, to end out with some fairly even and balanced combat excluding armour. This game isn't based on working out howmuch money you need to cap certain skill levels and acheiving that goal by grinding only...... unless you make it that way.

Putting your game mentality into a simple simile I could say...
"Building a house is expensive and "MONSTROUSLY" slow, and no one will ever build one because tents are so much cheaper and easier"

[amgineex01]

It's about time someone made a game where crafting takes serious dedication and investment. Granted this crafting system pales compared to SWG's sophisticated and ultra-fun crafting system; it shines because not every schmoe with a casual play time is going to hit a crafting mastery. Want something easy for casuals? Go Tailoring, Taming, or any of the pre-mastery abilities. It's not like rank 30 weapons suck, they are more than sufficient for almost anyone. I'm fine with the cost and the progression speed. My character is a bowyer/weaponsmithing master, and I love it. I'm glad this game rewards pure crafters and still gives options for fighters to pick up professions in the non-mastery fields.

The real problem lies with the mob drops. Either remove them completely from the game, or give them 25% durability of crafted one. This example's already in the game. Just look at the dropped Extravagant Robes/Hoods. They are at 50% durability right off the bat. The material requirement and progression speed for masteries should take a LONG time and I am glad it does.

TL;DR: Masteries are fine. Remove mob drops or significantly lower their durability.

[Llewen]

Maybe weaponsmithing mastery is perfect, and the problem they need to fix is the monsters around the world not providing enough challenge, or lower dropsrates from the mobs at the very least?

Otherwise IMO they should lower crafting costs across the board - again. :sly:


I would prefer that mob drop rates were lowered for a higher value in equipment, guess there's even better solutions that I havn't thought of too.. anyway.. It's a problem needing fixing =)

Dropped items should have a random lowering in durability from 0 - 100%. That's a start. I think that dropped items should also have random quality bell curved to the lower end of the equivalent skill scale. Perhaps the frequency of dropped items needs to be reduced as well, to simulate the fact that items will be broken as mobs are killed.

Another thing is that that there needs to be some kind of player vendor system, beyond simply spamming chat. It isn't just a problem with weapons mastery, the sad fact is that even now, with all the changes they have made to crafting, you can't sell the items you make.

Another thing that needs to happen is the starter weapons need to be removed from the game and replaced with an unarmed combat skill that is at a significant disadvantage when compared to fighting with a weapon.

Another thing that needs to happen is that there needs to be a reason to not be naked. I think weapon damages should be increased across the board, as well as the protection offered by armour of all types, which will have the effect of making wearing nothing much less attractive.

Perhaps a disease system needs to be introduced where if you are not wearing proper clothing depending on the climate, you run the risk of becoming ill.

The whole point is that right now there just isn't enough incentive to actually equip yourself, and plenty of incentive not to. As a result of that, and the relative usefulness of dropped items, there is almost no reason to spend any amount of gold on crafted items and crafting is, at this point, simply a gold sink for suckers such as myself...

[Milo Hobgoblin]

........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ....
BUT this is where rank 40 crafted weapons get utterly screwed! since r40's derive their dmg modifier from the MASTERY skill (wich will be 1 when you open em up) they have worse damage then the rank 30's the same smith will make...
This renders leveling the mastery a hellish process since you will be making extremely expensive that offer no return since not a single player will buy them because :

A: players will just kill mobs and get free r40's that do the same damage at a fraction of the fraction of the cost.

B: he will prefer a rank 30 crafted since its cheaper and better.

THE SOLUTION

Make it so that r40's get their dmg from the standard skill and not the mastery.
players will want the crafted r40's and so indirectly help the smiths lvl , by the time the smith hits 25 mastery the rank 50's will have a crafting bonus and evryone is happy.

Holy fuck that sucks.


Thanks for posting this.. thats a huge bug. Hopefully they will correct the issues.

[rinkanu]

To the players saying i QQ about the grind or anything , i am NOT complaining about the time/cost needed to lvl it, let me repeat that..

I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE DIFFICULTY TO LVL THE SKILL!!!

My point is that , simply put , the rank 40's a smith will make are COMPLETELY useless until he reaches ATLEAST 25 mastery.

[rinkanu]

For the sake of an example.

A rank 40 1h sword : a Denier : dropped of a soloable NPC if you have a mount. has a damage modifier of 0,41

A crafted rank 40 i made : Iceclaw : costs 100gold ,14 ingots ,4 wood
had a damage modifier of 0,405-0,412 (made only 5)

Now , what will the average player decide to do? farm all the ingredients then hope the craft wont fail or just kill 1 npc..

[day day]

For the sake of an example.

A rank 40 1h sword : a Denier : dropped of a soloable NPC if you have a mount. has a damage modifier of 0,41

A crafted rank 40 i made : Iceclaw : costs 100gold ,14 ingots ,4 wood
had a damage modifier of 0,405-0,412 (made only 5)

Now , what will the average player decide to do? farm all the ingredients then hope the craft wont fail or just kill 1 npc..

You're not factoring in the levels,
I could then also say a 2h sword does more damage than a 1h sword, without factoring swing time or skill level, your logic is flawed, and that's what you're not understanding. You could kill 1 NPC, or you could craft 1 bow. Each process has a diffrent path and those who choose crafting will be better in the long run over NPC drops.

The diffrence is;
A) Short term advantage through NPC drops, or;
B) Long term advantage through crafting

If you haven't figured this out yet, then I understand why you would consider this a "big issue" but you have to think a bit harder next time you QQ against a very simple path choice.

[Deveon]

For the sake of an example.

A rank 40 1h sword : a Denier : dropped of a soloable NPC if you have a mount. has a damage modifier of 0,41

A crafted rank 40 i made : Iceclaw : costs 100gold ,14 ingots ,4 wood
had a damage modifier of 0,405-0,412 (made only 5)

Now , what will the average player decide to do? farm all the ingredients then hope the craft wont fail or just kill 1 npc..

Hm, this is a problem.. a rank 30 crafted becomes equival to rank 40 dropped goods. I assumed this was the low-end of rank 40 crafted.. but I suppose their algorithm needs to be reworked so that it's a combination of weaponsmithing and weaponsmithing mastery that decides damage.

[TheDor]

I agree with the OP. I crafted a few r40s, saw how incredibly bad they were, and went back to making r30s for the guild.

To those saying that mastery crafting is fine:
The problem isn't the rate of skill gain, or even how expensive the weapons are. The problem is that it takes 3-5x more materials and gold to craft a single r40, and the r30s have nearly as much durability, and HIGHER damage modifiers. The guy with the house/tent example is retarded, because in this case the tent takes less time and effort, and is better then the house.

[day day]

I agree with the OP. I crafted a few r40s, saw how incredibly bad they were, and went back to making r30s for the guild.

To those saying that mastery crafting is fine:
The problem isn't the rate of skill gain, or even how expensive the weapons are. The problem is that it takes 3-5x more materials and gold to craft a single r40, and the r30s have nearly as much durability, and HIGHER damage modifiers. The guy with the house/tent example is retarded, because in this case the tent takes less time and effort, and is better then the house.

In the short run yes, in the long run no. Why?
When the crafted bows surpass the mob drops (and they will and EVERYONE knows it) then you will be complaining that the market price is too high for player vendor bows and that they are so rare, and an unfair advantage to people that kill mobs for weapons. The problem is with your impression that AV intended a crafters path to be easier than you intended. If you're not happy with becoming a master, then don't become one and pay outrageous prices to me when you're begging for something better than a standard mob dropped r40 bow.

You should also check out some history and learn how certain skills were refined well before others, people were making tents at an expert level while housing took many years to advance. This games skill tree is far deeper than you could have ever imagined

[TheDor]

In the short run yes, in the long run no. Why?
When the crafted bows surpass the mob drops (and they will and EVERYONE knows it) then you will be complaining that the market price is too high for player vendor bows and that they are so rare, and an unfair advantage to people that kill mobs for weapons. The problem is with your impression that AV intended a crafters path to be easier than you intended. If you're not happy with becoming a master, then don't become one and pay outrageous prices to me when you're begging for something better than a standard mob dropped r40 bow.

You should also check out some history and learn how certain skills were refined well before others, people were making tents at an expert level while housing took many years to advance. This games skill tree is far deeper than you could have ever imagined

I'm sorry you must be new here, allow me to help.
The crafting system in Darkfall has been designed to be useful first and foremost. It's not very complicated and we haven't tried to reinvent the wheel with it. You can craft any and all items in the game. In Darkfall having good gear is one of the elements needed for maximizing your combat potential. Each item you craft bears your name on it for the life of the item and that has a value in itself. The question I'm replying to is variations of "why is the crafting system sophisticated, intuitive, and fun?" I'm not going to describe it more than we have already, but I'll say again that the value of crafting in Darkfall is that it's so very important in the game, more so than in any other MMO. Enchanting items is more challenging in that you have to discover the recipes, research, there's a process which is challenging and fun for those who enjoy that kind of thing.
We believe that our way is the most gameplay, player, PvP, and crafter friendly approach.
NPC Merchants sell the basic items. Everything else is crafted by the players as you already know.
Now the success probability in crafting the item and the eventual quality of the finished product have to do with the skill level of the crafter. The items you buy from vendors are of average quality, but a skilled crafter can make the higher quality versions of these items. Perfect versions of specific items are theoretically possible. Crafters can further specialize in advanced skills to craft the more elite items of varying qualities.
MMORPG.com: Your website states that your "crafting system is intuitive, non-repetitive, challenging, useful, fun - and profitable." Can you explain what this means in practical terms? Tasos Flambouras: Consider what potentially tide-turning magical weapons are worth to a besieged clan - who stand to lose their clanstone and everything they've worked for - and you'll realise the worth of craftsmen in a war-torn setting such as Agon. Darkfall is a combat oriented game, and there will never be a shortage of recently slain players who need to have their equipment replaced. As a result, master crafters will be highly sought after, both as clan members and as trading partners.
...
The crafting system is designed this way in order to encourage conflict, cooperation and trade between players. Here are just some of the things we hope to see players engaged in, as a result of incentives inherent in Darkfall's crafting system: 1) Clan conflict over the control of monster populations which yield valuable resource drops. 2) Stealth raids into the territories of enemy races in order to harvest rare ingredients. 3) Merchants specializing in buying and selling ingredients. 4) Players discovering and researching a new resource several months into the game. 5) Neighbors uniting against a powerful clan monopolizing a resource point. 6) Clans demanding a tax from anyone wishing to use their resource points. 7) Mercenary craftsmen offering their services to the highest bidder in a vicious clan war. 8) Flourishing black market resource trade in neutral cities such as Silvertown.
All items in Darkfall can be crafted by players, so a quick trip to your local bank vault, or to a clan-mate who's handy with a smith's hammer will have you back in business in no time.
Warcry- How detailed is your crafting system?
Darkfall Team- Very detailed, every item in game will be craftable by the players. The best items will be player made; these items will last longer and have better stats.

So before you tell me that Aventurine INTENDED for mastery crafting to be absolutely useless until it was GRINDED up to a useful level, maybe you should read a little more into what Aventurine INTENDED crafting to be like.

And don't try and pull a bullshit move like "go read more history." Darkfall is a game, not an exercise in historical accuracy.

[Llewen]

And the point of my earlier post in this thread was that this issue is a lot bigger than just weapon or armour smithing mastery. This really is about the viability of crafting as a whole. I enjoy crafting in just about any game I play, and that is the main reason why I craft, but while certain crafts in Darkfall, such as herbalism and cooking, are useful, the smithing crafts for the most part are just colossal gold sinks.

[TheDor]

And the point of my earlier post in this thread was that this issue is a lot bigger than just weapon or armour smithing mastery. This really is about the viability of crafting as a whole. I enjoy crafting in just about any game I play, and that is the main reason why I craft, but while certain crafts, such as herbalism and cooking, are useful, the smithing crafts are for the most part are just colossal gold sinks.

Yep. I had a GM smith and alchy in UO, and I love crafting in just about every game (UO had the best system thus far).

I think todays patch helped a lot for starting smiths, increased durability loss on armor and starter weapons not giving skill gains should give both starting armorsmiths and weaponsmiths some much needed love. Now we just need Aventurine to address the issues with mastery skills.

[Pyro Kiddie]

make it a combination of both mastery and normal skill... ie your r40 weps will get better as u skill up but still better than the r30s at the start^^

[day day]

TheDor,
None of this states that you will be an epic master that can make every weapon/armour/craft ability of your choice in 6 weeks from launch, if you started on day 1. You've missed the point, and the point was stated clearly and simply and I even dumbed it down relating to simple tasks that everybody is aware of. So I'll go even simpler...

It takes time to do stuff, more time than you expected.
Skills start low, then become high.

Do you understand now? lol
If you did learn some history, then you would have a better understanding of how AV created their craft system around certain skills when they were in reaserch development for this game. So it's actually not bullshit, I was trying to help you understand the current craft model, but you seem to be stuck in a place of where you think it should go, not where AV decides to take it. Which is long term, it's an MMO, it deserves to be long term.

Say it sucks after a year of crafting :P

[Viskath]

TheDor,
None of this states that you will be an epic master that can make every weapon/armour/craft ability of your choice in 6 weeks from launch, if you started on day 1. You've missed the point, and the point was stated clearly and simply and I even dumbed it down relating to simple tasks that everybody is aware of. So I'll go even simpler...

It takes time to do stuff, more time than you expected.
Skills start low, then become high.

Do you understand now? lol

It's not that it takes time, it's that rank 40 weapons are completely worthless to make as it stand, when rank 30s get better than mob dropped 40s, and only have about 5 less durability.

I don't think anyone minds the time it takes, if only it were worth it to actually level as is.

[TheDor]

TheDor,
None of this states that you will be an epic master that can make every weapon/armour/craft ability of your choice in 6 weeks from launch, if you started on day 1. You've missed the point, and the point was stated clearly and simply and I even dumbed it down relating to simple tasks that everybody is aware of. So I'll go even simpler...
Well, at least you've given me confirmation that you aren't just new, but also retarded.

Here, I'll make this next part easier to read, and I'll even type it slowly:
THE PROBLEM ISN'T THAT YOU CAN'T SKILL UP QUICKLY! THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT YOU CAN'T CRAFT EVERY ITEM WITHIN 6 WEEKS! THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE FIRST ITEM YOU CAN MAKE IN THE MASTERY SKILL IS 100% WORTHLESS! THIS MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO CREATE HUNDREDS OF 100% USELESS ITEMS BEFORE YOU CAN CRAFT ANYTHING THAT SOMEONE WOULD ACTUALLY WANT TO BUY OR USE! THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF A USELESS GRIND!

Ehem, now back to your regularly scheduled broadcasting.

[Lumanil]

Maybe it's not intended to be done over night or during the week for that matter, if everything was easy to max out this game would die before it even got started.

/agreed

I hope they won't fix this.
I don't want to see 1000 r100+ Weaponsmiths after a week.
Even on a big server like this, there should be few people, who can actually do r50+ weapons. So not everyone is spammed with such good weapons in trade-chat.

[Viskath]

/agreed

I hope they won't fix this.
I don't want to see 1000 r100+ Weaponsmiths after a week.
Even on a big server like this, there should be few people, who can actually do r50+ weapons. So not everyone is spammed with such good weapons in trade-chat.

read:

Well, at least you've given me confirmation that you aren't just new, but also retarded.

Here, I'll make this next part easier to read, and I'll even type it slowly:
THE PROBLEM ISN'T THAT YOU CAN'T SKILL UP QUICKLY! THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT YOU CAN'T CRAFT EVERY ITEM WITHIN 6 WEEKS! THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE FIRST ITEM YOU CAN MAKE IN THE MASTERY SKILL IS 100% WORTHLESS! THIS MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO CREATE HUNDREDS OF 100% USELESS ITEMS BEFORE YOU CAN CRAFT ANYTHING THAT SOMEONE WOULD ACTUALLY WANT TO BUY OR USE! THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF A USELESS GRIND!

Ehem, now back to your regularly scheduled broadcasting.

[Yankees1235]

The time it takes does make sense, if this game has such high expectations in the future, with patches, it should last long enough, for the hardcore crafters to reach mastery. Until then, they can't get rid of drops from NPC, they drop what they use, but they could weaken them.

[day day]

I understand that you're saying the skill curve is too steep and the first r40 item is worse than the r30 mob drop, but it does take more time and effort than you imagined to get to a decent level :D

You're obviously underestimating the level a master can get to and it can rival costs of seige equipment. Crafters are much more important than you can currently conceive, as stated by the text wall you posted. Which again takes us back to the exact same point that you seem to be misunderstanding about the current craft system :)

[rinkanu]

Darkfall's crafting system is very rewarding , atleast in my eyes, evry 25 lvls you open up better weapons then the previous ones but this doesnt apply to getting 100 + lvl 1 mastery

I simply want to have that fixed , i cannot conceive how anyone could actually say that such logic is flawed =/

[clockwork23]

THE PROBLEM ISN'T THAT YOU CAN'T SKILL UP QUICKLY! THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT YOU CAN'T CRAFT EVERY ITEM WITHIN 6 WEEKS! THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE FIRST ITEM YOU CAN MAKE IN THE MASTERY SKILL IS 100% WORTHLESS! THIS MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO CREATE HUNDREDS OF 100% USELESS ITEMS BEFORE YOU CAN CRAFT ANYTHING THAT SOMEONE WOULD ACTUALLY WANT TO BUY OR USE! THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF A USELESS GRIND!

QFT, and because all the idiots need to reread this.

[smason]

Not sure about weaponsmithing but with other crafts we make the item that has the lowest amount of mats to skill up. Theres a link around here showing that doing higher lvl items doesnt increase you skill ups.

So if it stands true for weaponsmithing wouldnt it be better to just craft a ton of lower items for the mastery skill ups?

[rvruwink]

Not sure about weaponsmithing but with other crafts we make the item that has the lowest amount of mats to skill up. Theres a link around here showing that doing higher lvl items doesnt increase you skill ups.

So if it stands true for weaponsmithing wouldnt it be better to just craft a ton of lower items for the mastery skill ups?

He is trying to craft the lowest level weapon for the weaponsmith mastery skill. This happens to be the R40 sword which is worse than the R30 sword he can make which is not a mastery weapon so won't increase his skill. The OP is stating that it would make more sense to balance the R40 Sword to be based off of weaponsmith + weaponsmith mastery for determining the damage so that he could make useful weapons instead of completely useless pieces of steel.

Do people not understand this?

[smason]

He is trying to craft the lowest level weapon for the weaponsmith mastery skill. This happens to be the R40 sword which is worse than the R30 sword he can make which is not a mastery weapon so won't increase his skill. The OP is stating that it would make more sense to balance the R40 Sword to be based off of weaponsmith + weaponsmith mastery for determining the damage so that he could make useful weapons instead of completely useless pieces of steel.

Do people not understand this?

Being that i said i didnt in my post that would be a big NO... So only rank 40 weapons count toward advanceing mastery?

[TheDor]

Being that i said i didnt in my post that would be a big NO... So only rank 40 weapons count toward advanceing mastery?
Crafting r0-r30 weapons does not skill up the mastery skill at all.
Only making the r40 weapons skills up mastery.

[Das717]

Just a thought:
The economy as a whole will grow over time, prices will be the same but the majority of people will be grinding higher mobs for more cash etc. You are just way ahead of the curve. It will still be pretty difficult, but not as bad as it is now with the cash on hand most people (ourselves) have.

[Kaol]

Its obviously designed for clans to back their crafters up and invest in them.

You can become a weaponsmith for your own needs but you will need to rely on a clan for better gear, it seems fair to me.

[jahosefat]

enjoy the slow rates.

here is another:

"WHY CANT I BE THE FIRST TO HIT 100 IN MASTERY" ? thread


/play for fun freaks :D

are you dumb or just stupid?

he is not complaining that it takes forever to level. The time is meant to be long to rank up mastery skill. He is saying that at 300g per item the crafted rank 40 are worse statistically than the much cheaper rank 30 weaopns. Therefore nobody will be willing to pay the cost for rank 40 weaps to help offset the high cost.

[amgineex02]

I understand that you're saying the skill curve is too steep and the first r40 item is worse than the r30 mob drop, but it does take more time and effort than you imagined to get to a decent level :D

You're obviously underestimating the level a master can get to and it can rival costs of seige equipment. Crafters are much more important than you can currently conceive, as stated by the text wall you posted. Which again takes us back to the exact same point that you seem to be misunderstanding about the current craft system :)

who said crafted rank 40's are worth than rank 30 mob dropped? that's not the case. Also, crafted r40 weapons typically go from -0.01 dmg to 0.02 dmg better than the mob dropped counter parts.

[gazarsgo]

are you dumb or just stupid?


This seems like a strange question to repeat again and again just for the sake of ... what, belittling people who are actually taking the time to respond to you to try to explain a concept you obviously refuse to accept?

I'll throw in my two cents:
Would you rather forever mean it takes you an hour to craft one r40 sword, or to pay the 'time' cost in gold?

You'd think if you actually had the mastery skill, you would know how many "100% WORTHLESS ZOMG QQ" weapons you had to craft to get there.

Or you could spend some time actually using those weapons to raise your combat skills.

[corpus]

But at the very least you can see the plight, working the mastery skill has no benefits until at least 25.0 skill, which is about 300,000 gold. There is not doubt it is intended to be a slow and grueling process, but the problem is that it is 300,000 down the drain as the R40s truly, really, truly are useless compared to the R30s with 100.0 skill. What he is suggesting is not to make the skill easier, but to make the R40s damage based off the initial skill. It is still a ridiculous goldsink, it's just not a useless one.

We are all very quickly coming to the realization that Crafting Mastery is quite pointedly, quite aptly, a huge goldsink and a huge time investment. No one doubts this.

It was estimated that to get a Crafting Mastery to 100 it takes about 1.3 million to 2.0 million gold. I've also been told that 1000 gold an hour is an high intake. If one were to farm gold solely at a rate of 1000 gold an hour, assume 1.6 million in costs, it would take 66.6 days of straight farming to get enough gold to master a mastery skill, this doesn't count the turning of that gold into resources, so let's put another 2-3 days into that, and the actual time spent sitting there clicking the button, which has been estimated at 5.75 days without the time spent walking back and forth from the back. Looking at this you're looking at about 75 days of pure play to get a single mastery skill. Considering the average human probably maxes out at maybe 8.0 hours a day, it would take the average mortal, if they played every day and with diligence only focusing on a bow mastery skill, 225 days to get a mastery for a crafting skill. But since this person doesn't exist, let's just put it at a little over a year. Clearly these skills are intended for a clan to have one designated master crafter of each type. We aren't disputing that.

The problem I have is that it appears that for at least the first fourth of that skill, the skill appears to be really, truly useless. I can't say about consecutive levels, but my hope is that at the 25.0 mark the shit you can make is useful, otherwise it is doubtful you will ever see someone attain a mastery. This is, after all, a game, and who wants to say that they spent a year of their life getting a crafting mastery skill in a game?
That is a ominous amount of days of farming. So essentially, hitting 100 mastery will bring about agon's apocolypse.

[day day]

are you dumb or just stupid?

he is not complaining that it takes forever to level. The time is meant to be long to rank up mastery skill. He is saying that at 300g per item the crafted rank 40 are worse statistically than the much cheaper rank 30 weaopns. Therefore nobody will be willing to pay the cost for rank 40 weaps to help offset the high cost.

I believe you are the one who is dumb and stupid because you don't understand that mastery progresses over a long period of time and you can't get awesome bows at LEVEL 1 MASTERY.

Jesus, some ADD kids are so tarded that they can't understand this MMO is long term and then they QQ about it. Go back to your fish bowls.

Only the people with brains larger than goldfish can understand that 1+1=2
Yet the pople in this topic seem to think differently. These people are mainly stat whores and uneducated kids who don't understand basic concepts of games and life

[Drekor]

who said crafted rank 40's are worth than rank 30 mob dropped? that's not the case. Also, crafted r40 weapons typically go from -0.01 dmg to 0.02 dmg better than the mob dropped counter parts.

Crafter r40's are worse than crafted r30's for quite some time.

And crafted r40's may be within 0.01 of mob drops but the r30 we make are much better than that not to mention 1/3 of the cost.

[rinkanu]

I believe you are the one who is dumb and stupid because you don't understand that mastery progresses over a long period of time and you can't get awesome bows at LEVEL 1 MASTERY.

Jesus, some ADD kids are so tarded that they can't understand this MMO is long term and then they QQ about it. Go back to your fish bowls.

Only the people with brains larger than goldfish can understand that 1+1=2
Yet the pople in this topic seem to think differently. These people are mainly stat whores and uneducated kids who don't understand basic concepts of games and life

My god , a person saying others have the intelligence of a fish while missing the most simple logic himself.

Weaponsmithing skill => evry 25 lvl's you open up better weapons then the previous ones

This doesnt apply to rank 40's and should get fixed no?

The mastery SHOULD take ages to lvl because i for 1 do not want to see lvl 50+ mastery smiths evrywhere.

[Hooligan.]

I never read this whole thread, but I just want to throw one point out there.


I can solo-farm a full plate set in around 1hr 20mins for zero cost (actually I will end up with an additional 3k gold worth of other stuff).

ps this is 10 pieces of plate, not specifically one of each piece, but 10 plate pieces (trade out with guild to get one of each piece)

This is rediculous.

Crafting is broke in this game, people that can't see it are deluded.

[cheopis]

So, from what I'm seeing here, when a weaponcrafter reaches a certain skill level <x> where they are considered a master, all of a sudden the quality of the "best" equipment that they manufacture suddenly gets worse?

In other words, after getting "better" at their skill, they are actually unable to make better equipment?

IMHO, all questions about grinding and time etc can go completely out the window. I don't care how long it takes to raise a skill, provided that there is steady improvement in the quality of the best items that I can make as I "improve" my skills.

Anything else would be like a swordsman all of a sudden being easier to beat because they passed over some threshhold and became a "master" swordsman.

It makes no sense whatsoever. As skills improve, the quality of what you can make or the effectiveness of what you can do should always improve, never get worse.

I'm beginning to wonder if Darkfall is going to be a severe letdown for me when I do manage to find the shop open. I like to craft, and have heard some good things about DF crafting, but this thread is raising red flags.

[PrimalSign]

So, from what I'm seeing here, when a weaponcrafter reaches a certain skill level <x> where they are considered a master, all of a sudden the quality of the "best" equipment that they manufacture suddenly gets worse?

I'm not sure you understand the situation...

Rank 00, 10, 20, 30, and 40 weapons can all be crafted using the normal Weaponsmith skill. As your skill progresses, these items steadily get better... except for the rank 40s. Rank 40 weapons have their strength determined by the advanced weaponsmith skill called Weaponsmithing Mastery.

The problem, as put forth by the op and several others throughout this thread, is that since your Rank 30 weapons are using 100 weaponsmithing they are much better than the more expensive Rank 40 weapons which have their strength based off the mastery skill. Since Rank 40 weapons are required to raise the Mastery, and it requires an obscene amount of resources to do, it becomes impossible to simply "play the game" and raise your skills as you go.

Since nobody will be eager to purchase inferior weapons at higher prices the whole smithing process becomes a grind to get past 25 mastery.

Anything else would be like a swordsman all of a sudden being easier to beat because they passed over some threshhold and became a "master" swordsman.

A better analogy would be a master swordsman unlocking a weapon skill that started weaker than his normal attacks, but once he trained it the skill would be much stronger than standard blows.

This is still an unfavorable situation imo, but it has a stronger correlation to the issue at hand.

[rinkanu]

^^^ pretty much sums it up =)

[cheopis]

I'm not sure you understand the situation...

Rank 00, 10, 20, 30, and 40 weapons can all be crafted using the normal Weaponsmith skill. As your skill progresses, these items steadily get better... except for the rank 40s. Rank 40 weapons have their strength determined by the advanced weaponsmith skill called Weaponsmithing Mastery.

The problem, as put forth by the op and several others throughout this thread, is that since your Rank 30 weapons are using 100 weaponsmithing they are much better than the more expensive Rank 40 weapons which have their strength based off the mastery skill. Since Rank 40 weapons are required to raise the Mastery, and it requires an obscene amount of resources to do, it becomes impossible to simply "play the game" and raise your skills as you go.

Since nobody will be eager to purchase inferior weapons at higher prices the whole smithing process becomes a grind to get past 25 mastery.



A better analogy would be a master swordsman unlocking a weapon skill that started weaker than his normal attacks, but once he trained it the skill would be much stronger than standard blows.

This is still an unfavorable situation imo, but it has a stronger correlation to the issue at hand.

OK I see better what the con arguments are here. They seem weak, but I can understand them now.

No matter what one might call the "Master Weaponsmith" skill, it is a direct extension of the Weaponsmith skill. While the concept of a newly learned technique being weaker in actual practice than a skill that has been known for some time is a valid point, it is also a valid point that there is no such thing as "perfectly learned" - the master will still be perfecting his knowledge and ability to work with other techniques for as long as they learn anything about weaponsmithing.

If the first several months of grinding weaponsmith mastery skills on rank 40 weapons will be a complete and utter waste of the craftsman's time, than at least allow the mastery skill to be used to supplement the old weapons.

In other words, to make actually being a "master" meaningful, allow the quality of regular weaponsmithing items to be enhanced by the mastery skill at least until a point where rank 40 equipment is better than rank 30

For rank 30 and lower, the bonus might be based on (Weaponsmith skill + Mastery skill/4)?

That way the master weaponsmith can continue to create superior equipment to a nonmaster, and a higher skilled master will have an advantage in skill over a lower skilled master for making such weapons.

It's a matter of progression. In the example above, that master swordsman might have learned a new technique, but if they are truly a master swordsman, they are certainly not going to attempt to use a new skill or attack in a real fight until they have practiced for a very very long time with it - and all of that practice they do to prepare them to use the new move in a fight will simply strengthen their overall understanding of swordsmanship.

There is always progression when you are learning something new. the Mastery crafting skills should either produce superior new equipment, or they should allow for further improvement of already learned equipment.

[day day]

OK I see better what the con arguments are here. They seem weak, but I can understand them now.

No matter what one might call the "Master Weaponsmith" skill, it is a direct extension of the Weaponsmith skill. While the concept of a newly learned technique being weaker in actual practice than a skill that has been known for some time is a valid point, it is also a valid point that there is no such thing as "perfectly learned" - the master will still be perfecting his knowledge and ability to work with other techniques for as long as they learn anything about weaponsmithing.

If the first several months of grinding weaponsmith mastery skills on rank 40 weapons will be a complete and utter waste of the craftsman's time, than at least allow the mastery skill to be used to supplement the old weapons.

In other words, to make actually being a "master" meaningful, allow the quality of regular weaponsmithing items to be enhanced by the mastery skill at least until a point where rank 40 equipment is better than rank 30

For rank 30 and lower, the bonus might be based on (Weaponsmith skill + Mastery skill/4)?

That way the master weaponsmith can continue to create superior equipment to a nonmaster, and a higher skilled master will have an advantage in skill over a lower skilled master for making such weapons.

It's a matter of progression. In the example above, that master swordsman might have learned a new technique, but if they are truly a master swordsman, they are certainly not going to attempt to use a new skill or attack in a real fight until they have practiced for a very very long time with it - and all of that practice they do to prepare them to use the new move in a fight will simply strengthen their overall understanding of swordsmanship.

There is always progression when you are learning something new. the Mastery crafting skills should either produce superior new equipment, or they should allow for further improvement of already learned equipment.

It should be kept seperate like it is and stay the same
Try learning metalwork and then learn advanced metalwork

You will see that most of these processes are completely diffrent, same with most professions

[Dash102030]

I'm curious. At what level of Mastery does a r40 weapon become better than a r30 or mob dropped r40? Anyone know? Without this bit of info, we can't be sure how broken the skill is.

Also, how high did you get the mastery skill before you decided it was broken?

Can we some more examples of how large the qualitiy gap actually is between comparable r30, and r40 weapons with your smithing skills? And does this apply to all r40 weapons, or just the "cheap" one you wish to level with?

The reason I ask is because it's possible that at some point well before rank 25 will those "useless" weapons actually become better than the other stuff you're building.

[amgineex01]

I'm curious. At what level of Mastery does a r40 weapon become better than a r30 or mob dropped r40? Anyone know? Without this bit of info, we can't be sure how broken the skill is.

Also, how high did you get the mastery skill before you decided it was broken?

Can we some more examples of how large the qualitiy gap actually is between comparable r30, and r40 weapons with your smithing skills? And does this apply to all r40 weapons, or just the "cheap" one you wish to level with?

The reason I ask is because it's possible that at some point well before rank 25 will those "useless" weapons actually become better than the other stuff you're building.

Mine's already better. I'd like to see Assassin's bows with .74 dmg modifier. My rank 40's consistently hit high .73's and .74's

[ChubtoadSUN]

The amount of stupity and ppl guessing how mastery works is amazing.

FFS, rank 70 weapons drops
Rank 40 easily
Both those do not require special material at all.

No1 noticed that the rank0 weapon were worse than looted from goblin, I felt it was strange that crafted werent better than looted from n00b area but then it took no time to reach 25-50

The same is with mastery and rank40, but now its based on a very expensive skill that yield same stats or worse, than a rank30 half the price or a looted one.
At mastery 25 it requires what not special thingy ingredient and double cost compared to r40, for something that could be obtained.

Its not about the grind or the time its all about feeling useless.
When ppl from clan and other ask "well I like to buy r40 bows" and I say "dont cause my r30 are better and you get twice the amount" and they say "doh, why?" and I give up

[Charlotte]

Mine's already better. I'd like to see Assassin's bows with .74 dmg modifier. My rank 40's consistently hit high .73's and .74's

Rank 30 tops out at .739 or so. What is your skill in Bowyer Mastery, if I might ask? I'm inclined to disbelieve you because either you're the king of grinding and you've hit an appreciable skill already with an insane amount of effort, or the skill scales ridiculously well.

If you could, screenshot your wisdom score, your bowyer mastery score, and the bows in question. Thank you.

[rinkanu]

Rank 30 tops out at .739 or so. What is your skill in Bowyer Mastery, if I might ask? I'm inclined to disbelieve you because either you're the king of grinding and you've hit an appreciable skill already with an insane amount of effort, or the skill scales ridiculously well.

If you could, screenshot your wisdom score, your bowyer mastery score, and the bows in question. Thank you.

^^ i wana know aswell

[nmc09331]

each sunbow costs 20.000g plus mats.
Game is not yet 2 month old.
If people would have not abused the macroing and the non universal nodes, we would not be as high in skill as we are. Its our fault. game is working as intended.
Economy will have room for these weapons, but... not just yet.

[Chuck Zitto]

I guess the op has never tried to gain magic up. You would know that almost everything in this game is a grind of making useless items to eventually get better ones or casting useless spells to eventualy get better ones. Every spell tree in this game makes u cast useless spells to get a better spell that starts off worse than the free spell they give us. Your just gonna have to deal with it like everybody else and continue your grind. Eventually your new mastery weps will be stronger and you will quit bitching.

[Lyllyth]

I guess the op has never tried to gain magic up. You would know that almost everything in this game is a grind of making useless items to eventually get better ones or casting useless spells to eventualy get better ones. Every spell tree in this game makes u cast useless spells to get a better spell that starts off worse than the free spell they give us. Your just gonna have to deal with it like everybody else and continue your grind. Eventually your new mastery weps will be stronger and you will quit bitching.

Yes,
But Make each spell cost 300g to cast and give it a 30 minute cast time.

[Gem]

So an awesome merchant will have better shit than the rest? Sounds like Galaxies. I like this.

Could use some tweaks though. Like Llewen said, make monster drops have random lower than the norm durabilities.

Also, have different woods/metals/leathers/ect usable as a regular wood/etc but add different slight bonuses. Make them only found in specific areas of the world...

[Pyhre]

I've spent loads of time getting to 100 got my mastery, was so excited.
20 minutes later I wanted to shoot myself. guildies would rather go farm weapons than have me craft em'. I basically like said above, hit a brick wall.
sucks a bit.

[Llewen]

Something needs to be done in my opinion. Crafting is pretty much screwed still, in spite of some of the positive changes that have been made. Plenty of threads have offered useful suggestions. Hopefully the devs get a chance to implement some of them soon.

[Dasea]

I am not in the game, as such this is pure speculation.
But I think some people in this game should do weaponsmithing in wurm online and see what they prefer >.>

[Arklith Bane]

i think this is a good thing in a way, i understand its alot fo work, time and money but in the end only the ones that put that effort in will make the best gear.
its a way to give these ppl some worth in a way, if it was easy then everyone would be getting there skills up to craft the uber weapons for them selves now a master weapons smith will be worth his wieght in gold for a clan and they wont be ten a penny.

just my thoughts

[Charlotte]

i think this is a good thing in a way, i understand its alot fo work, time and money but in the end only the ones that put that effort in will make the best gear.
its a way to give these ppl some worth in a way, if it was easy then everyone would be getting there skills up to craft the uber weapons for them selves now a master weapons smith will be worth his wieght in gold for a clan and they wont be ten a penny.

just my thoughts

uhh the weapons themselves still cost an ungodly amount of mats. there's a difference between making something hard enough to make it noteworthy, and make it so hard that's it's effectively useless.

[Drekor]

i think this is a good thing in a way, i understand its alot fo work, time and money but in the end only the ones that put that effort in will make the best gear.
its a way to give these ppl some worth in a way, if it was easy then everyone would be getting there skills up to craft the uber weapons for them selves now a master weapons smith will be worth his wieght in gold for a clan and they wont be ten a penny.

just my thoughts

In a game with full loot where you can lose those expensive items with one mistake or break it with 1-2 hours worth of use there is not justification for the cost of those weapons.

[Nicholai Pestot]

In a game with full loot where you can lose those expensive items with one mistake or break it with 1-2 hours worth of use there is not justification for the cost of those weapons.

That depends really. You have to think about the applied use of these weapons before judging them.

Epic 1H weapons are going to be popular with mounted fighters. Imagen hitting for around 100 hp a strike. 3 hits to kill someone = not much degradation on the sword.

The sunbow seems to be quite worthless on the surface because of how quickly it will degrade compared to the cost. A couple of sunbows gives you one hell of an alpha-strike that you can use at the start of a fight you initiate to knock an opponent out straight away. Use it once for the high alpha then put it away and switch to normal bows.The sunbow feels like its going to be the ambushers weapon of choice for initial hits.

These super weapons are tactical tools that a group of people need to work towards getting. If you don't have a tactical niche for a weapon like that...don't get one.

"Waaagh I want shineys" isn't a good enough reason to invest tbh.


Edit-also we are judging weapon degradation based off todays stats. Its going to take months (at the least) before people start crafting these super weapons in any significant volume. Think about how high peoples wisdom and maintenance skills will be by that time. I wouldn't be surprised if weapons were lasting three times as long by that point.

[helegoed]

I've spent loads of time getting to 100 got my mastery, was so excited.
20 minutes later I wanted to shoot myself. guildies would rather go farm weapons than have me craft em'. I basically like said above, hit a brick wall.
sucks a bit.

Same here....spending 10k for nothing basically

[Chuck Zitto]

There is no fucking issue here. You hit 100 weaponsmith in a month. You will hit 100 mastery in three or four more months. Then for however long you choose to play darkfall. Note some people still play uo and its ten years old. You will never have to gain weaponsmith again. You will be able to make every good wep in the game and will make good money because people like myself will never take the time to do the grind and just purchase your weps. PS just for buying the skill mastery you shouldnt all of a sudden start making bad ass weps at 1 mastery skill. Deal With It

[Drekor]

There is no fucking issue here. You hit 100 weaponsmith in a month. You will hit 100 mastery in three or four more months. Then for however long you choose to play darkfall. Note some people still play uo and its ten years old. You will never have to gain weaponsmith again. You will be able to make every good wep in the game and will make good money because people like myself will never take the time to do the grind and just purchase your weps. PS just for buying the skill mastery you shouldnt all of a sudden start making bad ass weps at 1 mastery skill. Deal With It

Hit 100 mastery in 2 to 3 months? Perhaps if you have everyone in your guild farming every day just for you. Wouldn't surprise me if it took closer to a year for the average clan sponsored crafter. Maybe 6-8 months for more hardcore guilds. This all for weapons that are to expensive to be feasible in actual combat unless they "neglect" to fix mobs you can bug out.

[rootedoak]

basicly it's bad code. Their code for crafting the Mastery items should have a (min+ xskill)=craft instead of just (xskill)=craft

Pretty simple to fix, how long will it take for them to make a pass through crafting? Who knows?