Post Patch Findings of Ranges

[Heceldi]

Since patch, reach has changed for two hand weapons.

A polearm still has longest reach horizontally, by about 1 foot over a 2H sword, which has about 2 feet over a 2H axe, which has about 1/2 foot over a 2H blunt.

So here's the breakdown on horizontal swings from least to most reach...
Base 2H Blunt
+0.5 Foot for 2H Axe
+2.5 Feet for 2H Sword
+3.5 Feet for Polearm

Now, vertically, the landscape changed a bit. After about 100 swings by two people using various weapons in the category, nudging this way and that... 2H Blunt and 2H Axe have the same reach. Polearms have about a foot and a half over these, and two hand sword have two feet over a polearm.

So here's the breakdown on vertical swings from least to most reach...
Base 2H Blunt/2H Axe
+1.5 Feet for Polearm
+3.5 Feet for 2H Sword

Now, polearms hit for about 20% more damage than 2H Swords, whereas 2H Swords swing about 40% faster than Polearms. Over a long test, 2h swords have a higher sustained dps, and can do more damage on a full stamina bar with equal skill to a polearm.

Since polearm reach has been nerfed to be slightly inferior to 2H Swords, has a lower sustained damage, and still retains its knockback effect, I can't see how anyone can keep one effectively.

For all those complaining about the over abundance of Polearms, get ready for an over abundance of 2H Swords.

[EclipsedTerror]

Since patch, reach has changed for two hand weapons.

A polearm still has longest reach horizontally, by about 1 foot over a 2H sword, which has about 2 feet over a 2H axe, which has about 1/2 foot over a 2H blunt.

So here's the breakdown on horizontal swings from least to most reach...
Base 2H Blunt
+0.5 Foot for 2H Axe
+2.5 Feet for 2H Sword
+3.5 Feet for Polearm

Now, vertically, the landscape changed a bit. After about 100 swings by two people using various weapons in the category, nudging this way and that... 2H Blunt and 2H Axe have the same reach. Polearms have about a foot and a half over these, and two hand sword have two feet over a polearm.

So here's the breakdown on vertical swings from least to most reach...
Base 2H Blunt/2H Axe
+1.5 Feet for Polearm
+3.5 Feet for 2H Sword


My experience regarding GH and GA is different.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Borug/Swing.jpg

Horizontal swing distance was pretty much the same for all three towards the center and +15%-25% to the left and right. The difference is in the length of the arc and how far the reach is towards the ends of the arc.

The GA is really left out to dry from what I've seen. The swipe distance is not only shorter than all three, but the reach towards the end of the arc is awful. Also, the damage is very bad for having such a short range. You would think the biggest hits come from GA to make up for every other category it fails in compared to the other weapons.

You're pretty much right on the verticals, but I still found GA to be shorter than GH.

[zhandao]

Horizontal swing reach "changes" depending on the angle of your cursor to the vertical. If you're aiming downwards, the arc of your weapon will actually be aimed downwards so you will have less true reach in the lateral direction.

So, have all your tests been done while the camera is parallel to the ground?

Edited: My tests also support that 2H swords have 140% swing speed of polearms.

[EclipsedTerror]

So, have all your tests been done while the camera is parallel to the ground?

Thanks for reminding me and yes. :)

[Wufiavelli]

Any dagger changes noticed?

[TheDor]

Any dagger changes noticed?

People use daggers for actual combat and not just stat gain? :confused:

[zhandao]

Thanks for reminding me and yes. :)I noticed because I was just jerking around and I noticed a difference between my horizontal and vertical reaches. I finally figured out why. But does anybody else find it difficult to adjust to fighting with the camera to their back? I instinctively play with a top-down view, perhaps because then my character doesn't block my vision of who is directly in front of me.

[Heceldi]

Horizontal swing reach "changes" depending on the angle of your cursor to the vertical. If you're aiming downwards, the arc of your weapon will actually be aimed downwards so you will have less true reach in the lateral direction.

So, have all your tests been done while the camera is parallel to the ground?

Edited: My tests also support that 2H swords have 140% swing speed of polearms.

Yes, I understand the 'looking down' shortens swing distance.

Regarding 'arc' or 'swath' of attack, both polearm and sword seem to hit the same range in front, second to blunt, but better than axe. I didn't put these in the report, since its a LOT harder to get good solid numbers on these. It seemed vertical had about a 5 to 10 degree hit arc in front for everything, about 45 degrees for axe, around 60 degrees for blunt, and about 90 degrees for sword and polearm. Don't trust the exactness of these though, as its very hard to test these well while keeping camera where you need it.

Regarding knives, the distance out from the user is TINY, even 1H Blunt and 1H Axe outrange them. Figure its about the length of an arm for a human, or forearm for a Mahirim (yes, if you're just within arms length for a Mahirim, you're out of knife range). However, I was noticing they had a HUGE swing arc, such that I could be standing beside a person, facing past them, and still hit them when they are about 85 degrees off center. The biggest benefit to knives is that their specials come up faster than any other weapon, such that you can perform a seize or knockback every 4 seconds. With the speed of knockbacks, I would recommend them for archers as a primary melee weapon just for the ease of knocking opponents away so often.

[Wufiavelli]

picked them up for archery. Have tested that arch thing and i did not see it after hearing about it. will retry.

They also benefit from an extreme fast block, but that only stops 25%.

[Vesemir]

Since patch, reach has changed for two hand weapons.

A polearm still has longest reach horizontally, by about 1 foot over a 2H sword, which has about 2 feet over a 2H axe, which has about 1/2 foot over a 2H blunt.

So here's the breakdown on horizontal swings from least to most reach...
Base 2H Blunt
+0.5 Foot for 2H Axe
+2.5 Feet for 2H Sword
+3.5 Feet for Polearm

Now, vertically, the landscape changed a bit. After about 100 swings by two people using various weapons in the category, nudging this way and that... 2H Blunt and 2H Axe have the same reach. Polearms have about a foot and a half over these, and two hand sword have two feet over a polearm.

So here's the breakdown on vertical swings from least to most reach...
Base 2H Blunt/2H Axe
+1.5 Feet for Polearm
+3.5 Feet for 2H Sword

Now, polearms hit for about 20% more damage than 2H Swords, whereas 2H Swords swing about 40% faster than Polearms. Over a long test, 2h swords have a higher sustained dps, and can do more damage on a full stamina bar with equal skill to a polearm.

Since polearm reach has been nerfed to be slightly inferior to 2H Swords, has a lower sustained damage, and still retains its knockback effect, I can't see how anyone can keep one effectively.

For all those complaining about the over abundance of Polearms, get ready for an over abundance of 2H Swords.

2h blunt has +0.5 feet more than 2h axe.

[Heceldi]

picked them up for archery. Have tested that arch thing and i did not see it after hearing about it. will retry.

They also benefit from an extreme fast block, but that only stops 25%.

Yeah, knives are tied for worst parry reduction, same as all 1H weapons without shield at about ~25%

Polearms come next at ~45% reduction

2H Axe and Blunt seem to come in at ~50% reduction

2H Swords seem best non-shield at ~60% reduction

All shields, and seeming regardless of 1H weapon with them, come in at ~90% reduction.

With testing with my parry and weapon skills against someone who has different weapon proficiencies and hadn't parried once yet (so 40 skill vs 1 skill), it doesn't seem that parry or weapon skills matter for damage reduction.

These numbers were averaged over 20 hits, so they weren't long parses and subject to a bit of variance.

[Heceldi]

2h blunt has +0.5 feet more than 2h axe.

For horizontal or vertical?

I'll retest them in game again, however after testing last night, with about 30 minutes dedicated to range finding for those two weapons against each other since they were so close, I know -looking level-, 2H Axe out-ranges 2H Blunt horizontally. I rounded up to .5 feet, however would say the difference is actually closer to 3 inches (.25 feet)... but could not find ANY position in which one could hit when the other could not vertically. If there's a range difference in a vertical attack, then its either an inch or less. (This includes various weapons of the type, different weapons of the same type do not seem to affect range or arc in any way.. only tested 2 to 4 of each type, so not thorough, but enough that I feel pretty confident in my assumption its based on type only and not weapon name.)

If your findings are prepatch, come back when you test it again, the new animations have changed ranges and arcs.

[Drekor]

Thanks for the test results Heceldi, much appreciated!

[KuraM]

so wrong, 2h and polearm are pretty much the same now in reach i tried it with a bud.

[Wufiavelli]

they also might sometime revamp the whole sprinting thing (at least they said so in beta) and make it so it can be done in bursts that regain slowly and draw from the larger stamina as a whole. (think savage 2)

Once that is done it will slow the combat down a little and people with short weapons and larger pings might be a tad more viable.

[katahlyn]

they also might sometime revamp the whole sprinting thing (at least they said so in beta) and make it so it can be done in bursts that regain slowly and draw from the larger stamina as a whole. (think savage 2)

Once that is done it will slow the combat down a little and people with short weapons and larger pings might be a tad more viable.

It was suggested in the beta, but I don't want it to happen. :p

[Drazmic]

so wrong, 2h and polearm are pretty much the same now in reach i tried it with a bud.

I also tested the reach and got this out of it.

[Heceldi]

so wrong, 2h and polearm are pretty much the same now in reach i tried it with a bud.

Yes, and no. The reach benefit that 2H Swords has over Polearms in a vertical attack is about the same reach benefit a Polearm has over a 2H Sword in a horizontal attack.

The fact that Polearms retain the knockback effect make them far less viable.

Before, Polearms had about 2 feet both vertical and horizontal over 2H Swords, but performed the knockback, making them balanced.

My solution? I'm starting to skill up 2H Blunt. Shorter reach, no knockback, bonus to most armor.

[elyssaria]

Well obviously now the 2h sword has the advantage... and the worst of the weapons seems to be the 2h axe.. There is indeed in need of some balancing around this issue. You said that 2h blunt has good armor advantage.. what about the axe? Is it just bad overall without any really advantages?

/Ely

[Drekor]

Yes, and no. The reach benefit that 2H Swords has over Polearms in a vertical attack is about the same reach benefit a Polearm has over a 2H Sword in a horizontal attack.

The fact that Polearms retain the knockback effect make them far less viable.

Before, Polearms had about 2 feet both vertical and horizontal over 2H Swords, but performed the knockback, making them balanced.

My solution? I'm starting to skill up 2H Blunt. Shorter reach, no knockback, bonus to most armor.

Why not just get the 2h thunder sword? Long range, no knockback, cuts through armor even better.

Although not sure why you associate a knockback as a liability. I consider it a great asset, operating at max polearm range and with good timing you can pump a GS user outside their range and unable to do damage.

You said that 2h blunt has good armor advantage.. what about the axe? Is it just bad overall without any really advantages?
2H axe has poor range, poor arc, poor damage and damage type. It currently has 0 advantages over other weapons. Even daggers have some advantages.

[elyssaria]

2H axe has poor range, poor arc, poor damage and damage type. It currently has 0 advantages over other weapons. Even daggers have some advantages.

The 2H Axes really need some improvements then... :S

Actually I think the 2H blunt is a bit inferior as well although not as bad as the 2H Axe

/ely

[naga_ownage]

2H axes actually do the most damage, against an unarmored target. When pure casters start to become common, axes will be the best in fighting against them.

My calculation show swords to be 120% of the attack speed of polearms, polearms are doing 120% of the damage of swords. The damage between them is pretty much the same.

[Capricious]

As stated, greataxes have no advantages.

I've used them through beta and release with the hope that AV would make them the damage kings, but nothing yet.

Swing arc sucks, range sucks, delay vs. damage is bleh.

Due to all its disadvantages, greataxe should deal damage well above the other weps. I could live with the inferior range/swing arc if this change was made.

Stop dicking around with greatsword/polearm and just make greataxe/greatclub better!

[Wufiavelli]

has anyone tested axes power attack. saw some alfar with an ax and he raping people with the power attack.

Also the arc with dagger is kind of nice and would be rather viable when the sprint mechanics get fixed (if they follow through with their promise from beta). The cool part about the arc is the ability to get back damage if you flank from the sides.

[millerap]

I started with 2H swords, but I keep wanting to switch to polearms. This change just makes my decision harder. The longer vertical swing is useful in tight PvP situations, but less useful in PvE. The slow swing time of the polearm sucks, but the damage is good. I'm starting to think I should train polearms for the sheer damage and then sword and board for my quicker attacking siutations

[Drekor]

I started with 2H swords, but I keep wanting to switch to polearms. This change just makes my decision harder. The longer vertical swing is useful in tight PvP situations, but less useful in PvE. The slow swing time of the polearm sucks, but the damage is good. I'm starting to think I should train polearms for the sheer damage and then sword and board for my quicker attacking siutations

Keep in mind slow swing speed + high damage per swing may be a benefit depending on your style. If you a person that likes to joust and I'd say at least 70% of the server does then a PA will result in higher overall DPS as the GS gains it's benefit from it's speed which may not apply since you aren't stuck magically to your opponent.

My playstyle has me usually very close in to people but I also spend most of my time sprinting and the horizontal arc is very important, I could probably do more damage with daggers but... well... lag makes them suck ^_^.

[Gem]

My experience regarding GH and GA is different.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Borug/Swing.jpg

Horizontal swing distance was pretty much the same for all three towards the center and +15%-25% to the left and right. The difference is in the length of the arc and how far the reach is towards the ends of the arc.

The GA is really left out to dry from what I've seen. The swipe distance is not only shorter than all three, but the reach towards the end of the arc is awful. Also, the damage is very bad for having such a short range. You would think the biggest hits come from GA to make up for every other category it fails in compared to the other weapons.

You're pretty much right on the verticals, but I still found GA to be shorter than GH.

WTF is a GH?

[Ulvkrig]

WTF is a GH?

Great Hammer?

[Wufiavelli]

the really need to fix sprint before they can balance any of this.

[elyssaria]

the really need to fix sprint before they can balance any of this.

Not really, they should change so that the GA and GH gets longer reach to be comparable to the GS and PA. As it is now they are not!

/Ely

[elyssaria]

I assume there has not been any changes in the last patch regarding the 2handed axes/hammers?

/Ely

[Daelyx]

I assume there has not been any changes in the last patch regarding the 2handed axes/hammers?

/Ely

I wish, doubtful.

[Capricious]

God forbid they make changes to the weapons that need it.

[Wufiavelli]

God forbid they make changes to the weapons that need it.

i do not think they can fix that till they fix sprint. Which i guess they have to code in and balance.

Sprint in bursts and small pool instead of sprint sprint sprint sprint

[BluesFunk]

People bitching about greataxes need to read the damage output of their power attack (even at low skill levels).

[Heceldi]

People bitching about greataxes need to read the damage output of their power attack (even at low skill levels).

Um, you need to go take a look at power attack of other two handed weapons. They are all about equal bonus in relation to weapon damage, at least as of last night. Going to need to find some sword guys for power attack testing both 1 and 2 hand after today's patch.

[elyssaria]

Um, you need to go take a look at power attack of other two handed weapons. They are all about equal bonus in relation to weapon damage, at least as of last night. Going to need to find some sword guys for power attack testing both 1 and 2 hand after today's patch.

Yes... the damage has been about the same when I have tested with a greatsword user.

Yet the axes suffers from all bad things like bad arc, bad range and high resists on armors. Also slower then 2h swords. So still waiting for improvements to axes since they are in dire need of help here.

/Ely

[Wufiavelli]

Yes... the damage has been about the same when I have tested with a greatsword user.

Yet the axes suffers from all bad things like bad arc, bad range and high resists on armors. Also slower then 2h swords. So still waiting for improvements to axes since they are in dire need of help here.

/Ely

i think the ax specialty is the power attack. think it has one of the biggest power attacks in the game. not sure but have seen and heard things.

[Capricious]

People bitching about greataxes need to read the damage output of their power attack (even at low skill levels).

i think the ax specialty is the power attack. think it has one of the biggest power attacks in the game. not sure but have seen and heard things.

Even if that were true, the only proper time to use power attack is when you have the jump on an unknowing victim. Its not worth the risk of missing once they start moving around.

[Wufiavelli]

Even if that were true, the only proper time to use power attack is when you have the jump on an unknowing victim. Its not worth the risk of missing once they start moving around.

I have seen it used properly with jousts and other means. waiting till they get close and striking. worked well for a guy i saw getting attacked by 3 mounts.


still i really think sprint needs to be fixed though before any weapon changes take effect. this running around like a monkey thing is only and always gonna favor weapons with reach.