Looking for feedback on combat

[JJMicromegas]

Well I'm on the fence about this game, I was skeptical before launch and I openly posted me skepticism on the forums. I stayed away from the game at launch because of the billing problems and all that mess. So anyway I figured what the hell may as well give it a try except for one thing that I am still uncertain about in my mind...the combat.

Now let me explain, this could be a deal maker or breaker for me, I tried WAR and the reason I couldn't play that game for any length of time was because the actual combat was sooooo boring. I've been playing AoC since launch with all of it's flaws and bugs mostly because I just find controlling my character to be enjoyable and the combat to be fluid. ((((Please don't turn this into a WAR vs AoC vs DF thread, I have only stated the above to give you an idea of my perspective)))

I know the inherent problems with the game, I don't mind the full loot and all the rest, but I have heard two schools of thought on DF combat:

A. Those that complain it's just clickety click click, with very few skills and therefore boring.

B. Those that like the combat style or just enjoy the game for what it is.

So I'd like to know the following regarding the combat, and specifically melee combat since I intend on being a melee'er:

1. Is the combat fluid feeling and dynamic or is it choppy and tedious? This is hard to explain other than the feeling you get while in combat.

2. Does combat require a high level of skill or does it come down to zerging, potting, circle strafing or any other one skill that determines the outcome of a fight.

3. Is it strategic, whereby you have to use different strategies in different situations.

Thanks for the feedback, I'm looking for real and honest discussion, not a flaming thread full of asshats.

[-fionn-]

I am a big fan of the melee combat in AoC also, skill plays a big factor and it is always fun killing people or mobs due to the combat system. I tried WAR also and I fell asleep killing mobs in that game due to being used to the twitch combat in AoC. The combat in Darkfall is a lot of fun also and I definately haven't felt anything missing since leaving AoC. When you watch the videos of the combat in Darkfall it looks simplistic and boring or at least that was my opinion but it's actually a lot of fun once you get into it yourself. I don't miss having a bar full of melee skills to use although you do get to unlock 4 special attacks as you level your weapon skill which are Sieze Weapon(Draw opponent closer), Knockback, Power Attack and Whirlwind Attack(Aoe Spinning Attack).

To really enjoy the combat in DF and to be fully effective you will likely need to be a hybrid and use melee, archery and magic depending on what the situation calls for. This adds more diversity to your gameplay also as you level your magic you will gain access to all sorts of useful spells which will make you more effective in combat. Aiming your melee attacks, archery and your spells make the simplistic fun and exciting. Taking the trajectory arc into account in archery is really great and brings a lot of skill into play from long distances when someone is dodging. The fact that you can kill mounts and that the mounted combat actually works in this game(unlike AoC) adds something extra to the combat. The mob AI is also fantastic and will give you some real practice for fighting players, we even fought a gnoll once thinking he was a Mahirrim and only realised he wasn't when he was dead. ^^

[Sabbathius]

Combat in this game is pretty shallow and unresponsive. If WAR combat was a deal-breaker for you, you need to stay as far as you can from Darkfall, it is quite few notches worse than that.

What I mean is, say you're blocking, and you want to attack. In a game like AoC, WAR, Oblivion/Morrowind, etc., all you need to do is press attack button, and the shield will be lowered and your character will attack. Not so in Darkfall. Here, you need to let go of block button. Wait for the shield to return to rest position, and THEN click the attack button. If you click the attack button too early, and she shield isn't exactly finished being lowered, nothing will happen, and you'll have to click again. If, during the swing, as it is finishing, you decide that you want to swing again, you can't just press the mouse button and have the swing happen after the original one finishes, oh no, you have to WAIT until it finishes, completely, before you can press the mouse button again.

So, combat does NOT have a fluid feeling. It is awkward, jerky, unintuitive, unresponsive and downright painful. Also, 100% of it is left-mouse-button spam, just over and over. I almost wore out my mouse after one month in beta and one month of release, it's worse than a FPS game, because there at least you have different weapons, while Darkfall has 3: melee (they're all identical in the way they attack), bow (no crossbows zone starts here) and magic (stick, all exactly the same).

The skill in combat comes down to two types. One is running around with sprint, towards your opponent, taking a swing, running past your opponent while swing timer resets, turning around and coming back to your opponent once more, taking another swing, and running past again. That is very popular with polearm. The counter to this is 1h+shield, where you wait for him to make a pass, take the hit on the shield. You cannot counterattack him as he goes by, because like I said, the controls are unresponsive, by the time shield is lowered, he is already coming in for the next swing, and you do not want to trade shots with halberd. This way, you wear him out, since he burns stamina faster than Woody Woodpecker, and when he's out, you kill him. That's the skill. Also, pots are on 45 sec cooldown, whoever carries more pots -> wins. Gear is king, same as WoW.

It can be strategic, I suppose, but mostly not. The problem is, strategy is unusable in big battles because big battles are unplayable. On a dual core 3Ghz, with 8800gt and 4gb ram, at 640x480 resolution, the siege with 500 people in it was a slideshow. As in 1 frame every 10 seconds. With every graphics option turned down, except for object clipping and reduction in animation quality. I even turned the sound sources down to a minimum of 8, but it helped only slighter, I got 1 frame every second instead of 1 frame every 10 seconds. Still unplayable. So if you want gigantic battles, Age of Conan is your best bet, it is also less demanding in terms of hardware. No, I'm not kidding.

If you want responsive combat, stay away. Save your money. Find someone who bought the game and have them let you play for 10 mins, you'll see what I mean.

[JJMicromegas]

Thanks for the honest feedback interesting to see two different opinions back to back. Honestly I would be able to decide if I like the game within 10 minutes of playing it, I just need to feel how the character moves and attack a few mobs and I'll know right away. Unfortunately no free trials exist.

Would like to hear a bit more.

[sodapop]

Sabbathius' description is quite right.

I wouldn't say combat's unresponsive, it's just slow. I wouldn't mind that if there were some various skills to use but there's just LMB spam. Archery is done quite well, magic is a horrible grind to get any spell above starting projectile.

Thing with this game is, there's not much else to do apart from PvP combat. It's a MMOFPS with a FPS part badly done. There's no RPG, i mean its so simple you almost feel like not developing your character at all and everyone's the same.

[Yakamoz]

So if you want gigantic battles, Age of Conan is your best bet, it is also less demanding in terms of hardware. No, I'm not kidding.
Unfortunately I agree totally with your post Sabbathius...
How many people does AoC have in a siege ?

If DF is going to survive they need to add more depth into combat:
- dodging swings by stepping on a side or stepping back
- possibility of effective counterattack after block
- mechanics which will prevent people from running in a mad circles with completely unreasonable movement speed and turn speed.
would be nice start. Somebody said that DF melee is like CS knife combat but it is not true, when it comes to basis of movement CS combat wins.

[Nicholai Pestot]

The combat at the moment feels like a barebones system thats going to have meat added to it at a later date.

Magic is (mostly) a joke, arrows are rape and melee has one or two setups that are far, far more powerful than the alternatives.

Skill wise magc has alot of options, melee has alot of repeated options and archery has very few options.

The actual combat itself feels 'ok'.

1h/Shields still need to be a little more fluid, the gap between blocking and being able to swing again feels odd until you get used to it.

Jousting with tactical sprints is the most effective way to fight and this has a significant negative effect on some weapons. It will be interesting to see if AV tweek weapons to give them all something to bring to the table while jousting, or if they change some combat mechanics to make jousting less effective.

Other than that its good. You can have alot of fun and, through skill, beat people who out-number or out-gear you.

[Multisurgeon]

I agree everyone is the same in this game. I'm against classes but i don't think everyone should be able to do everything. Not sure how to fix this problem, but it gets realling boring when everyone carries a 2h, bow, and staff. I do however like the penalties armor has towards magic, but what about penalties to the bow? At this point there is not point of using leather since it has no protection and there is no sprinting advantage.

I think if they make a difference in the armor and change its bonuses and penalties then people wont be the same.

[fa.Judge]

Combat starts out slow and then develops into a more strategic scenario. Obviously running around in circles spamming left click is going to be dull.

Utilizing spells like Come Hither, Begone, and Confusion in group fights as an example is quite entertaining. AoEing an area while your team coordinates simultaneous blocking to avoid massive splash damage, or turning their backs to avoid the blinding white light of Confusion, takes coordination and adds depth.

This isn't a game to achieve max level in a week or two and expect game play to reflect such. Develop your characters.

[Yakamoz]

Combat starts out slow and then develops into a more strategic scenario. Obviously running around in circles spamming left click is going to be dull.

Utilizing spells like Come Hither, Begone, and Confusion in group fights as an example is quite entertaining. AoEing an area while your team coordinates simultaneous blocking to avoid massive splash damage, or turning their backs to avoid the blinding white light of Confusion, takes coordination and adds depth.

This isn't a game to achieve max level in a week or two and expect game play to reflect such. Develop your characters.
I talk about basic of combat, not available magic skills. I want to have possibility to step back or step aside to avoid getting hit, possibility of effective counterattack after parry/block. That's the model of melee combat closer to realism and actual player skill. Right now you run in circles with polearms or 2 h sword around your enemy or block him until all his stamina is gone so you can hammer him to death.
Furthermore melee, archery and magic needs skills which actually make a difference on the battlefield. A lot of spells are broken or make little difference in combat. It is a joke, it is better for me to shot another arrow then bother to cast a curse which will last a minute with little to none effect.

[chimp]

If you want big sieges, go to AoC?

LOL WUT?

troll troll is troll

[vitruvius]

Well I'm on the fence about this game, I was skeptical before launch and I openly posted me skepticism on the forums. I stayed away from the game at launch because of the billing problems and all that mess. So anyway I figured what the hell may as well give it a try except for one thing that I am still uncertain about in my mind...the combat.

Now let me explain, this could be a deal maker or breaker for me, I tried WAR and the reason I couldn't play that game for any length of time was because the actual combat was sooooo boring. I've been playing AoC since launch with all of it's flaws and bugs mostly because I just find controlling my character to be enjoyable and the combat to be fluid. ((((Please don't turn this into a WAR vs AoC vs DF thread, I have only stated the above to give you an idea of my perspective)))

I know the inherent problems with the game, I don't mind the full loot and all the rest, but I have heard two schools of thought on DF combat:

A. Those that complain it's just clickety click click, with very few skills and therefore boring.

B. Those that like the combat style or just enjoy the game for what it is.

So I'd like to know the following regarding the combat, and specifically melee combat since I intend on being a melee'er:

1. Is the combat fluid feeling and dynamic or is it choppy and tedious? This is hard to explain other than the feeling you get while in combat.

2. Does combat require a high level of skill or does it come down to zerging, potting, circle strafing or any other one skill that determines the outcome of a fight.

3. Is it strategic, whereby you have to use different strategies in different situations.

Thanks for the feedback, I'm looking for real and honest discussion, not a flaming thread full of asshats.

If you want to try out the melee combat in darkfall before actually playing - purchase an old game called Rune: Halls of Valhalla (sp?). I think I bought it 5+ years ago for $5 online, it's not expensive. It's basically an arena based melee FPS, very similar to melee combat in darkfall.

The archery is like any other FPS, however jumping and running doesn't seem to effect your accuracy what so ever. You obviously have to account for the fall of the arrow, where as with magic, it's a straight shot but the spells take some time to reach the target and depending on distance, can be fairly easily avoided. Some spells travel faster than others.

Edit: As far as strategy goes, sneaking around, etc... Have you played any FPS game? It's the same thing, someone camps behind a wall waiting for you to pop out in an FPS to one shot you with an AWP... or a squad of 4 is waiting behind a tree/rock along side of the rode to ambush the unsuspecting traveler.

[sodapop]

This isn't a game to achieve max level in a week or two and expect game play to reflect such. Develop your characters.

It's funny how before the release ppl were bashing games like WoW because you need to grind levels to develop your character and now suddenly everyone says its ok to grind magic for months (which is an only option to make your char develop somehow different).

[Esudar]

Combat in this game is pretty shallow and unresponsive. If WAR combat was a deal-breaker for you, you need to stay as far as you can from Darkfall, it is quite few notches worse than that.


its not.

war combat sucks. its just boring and you had it that way the last 9000 years.

this game is different.
its fun to aim and shoot with bow or magic.
melee combat isnt as simple as some people want to make you believe.
its about movement, blocking and hitting... not only spamming the mouse button.

[Esudar]

It's funny how before the release ppl were bashing games like WoW because you need to grind levels to develop your character and now suddenly everyone says its ok to grind magic for months (which is an only option to make your char develop somehow different).

you know, there are friggin stupid morons that want to be given everything within 2 weeks but are too stupid to understand that a mmorpg doesnt work this way...
and there are somehow more mature people that understand mmorpgs.

the fact remains that you can join your friends at day 1 doing whatever and be actually helpful to them. thats somehow unique and makes df better than other games.

[sodapop]

melee combat isnt as simple as some people want to make you believe.
its about movement, blocking and hitting... not only spamming the mouse button.

blocking is pointless so it's all running around trying to hit a foe with that single attack, which is exactly what ppl are saying here.

[Esudar]

blocking is pointless so it's all running around trying to hit a foe with that single attack, which is exactly what ppl are saying here.

blocking is not pointsless.
maybe with your polearm... i dont know

[sodapop]

the fact remains that you can join your friends at day 1 doing whatever and be actually helpful to them. thats somehow unique and makes df better than other games.

well for now yeah, but after few months if you're not a GM in necromancy they'le be like: "what? 25 LM? gtfo my group" ;)

[sodapop]

blocking is not pointsless.
maybe with your polearm... i dont know

gl with your 1hander, you know its UP, who are you trying to fool?

[Esudar]

gl with your 1hander, you know its UP, who are you trying to fool?

talking about 2h where you actually hit fast and block is very viable ^^

[sodapop]

talking about 2h where you actually hit fast and block is very viable ^^

there's no need to block, you just run past him trying to hit his back w/e simply trading blows

[Esudar]

decent player is not standing still or holding down block all the time you know :eek:

[sodapop]

decent player is not standing still or holding down block all the time you know :eek:

w/e ok df melee is deep, you can hit run and block.

[Esudar]

w/e ok df melee is deep, you can hit run and block.

deeper than war yes

-
even though i would really like some mezz, backsnare, shield stunn

[imperium]

I talk about basic of combat, not available magic skills. I want to have possibility to step back or step aside to avoid getting hit, possibility of effective counterattack after parry/block. That's the model of melee combat closer to realism and actual player skill. Right now you run in circles with polearms or 2 h sword around your enemy or block him until all his stamina is gone so you can hammer him to death.
Furthermore melee, archery and magic needs skills which actually make a difference on the battlefield. A lot of spells are broken or make little difference in combat. It is a joke, it is better for me to shot another arrow then bother to cast a curse which will last a minute with little to none effect.

Yes, stepping back, to the side or simply running past an opponent can avoid a blow. As long as they don't step forward, to the side or turn to hit as you run by. A lot of players are so mechanical in their PvP I laugh a bit ... run in circles, pull out a bow if they run straight. Understanding the mechanics is so much more than that, and the obvious player responses become easy to beat (vs. a "circle / range that runner" normal person I rarely fall below half health even when wearing crappier armor in killing them).

To answer the questions though ... there are no "instant" or "combo" types of attacks like you see in other games. This is because there is NO targeting ... EVER. You don't have the ability to build up combos on a target as you simply don't have a target to build them up on. There is NO automatic ANYTHING ... which means you have to have the system be built with delays (such as coming out of block / parry) for the player to time whatever they are going to do.

As for the guy who says parry is useless ... lol. You're the type of person I would probably just roflstomp. If you're both using equal weapons, you use LESS stamina to parry efficiently than they do trying to run behind you as you simply mouse-turn and parry at the appropriate time. And that's if you even have to worry about stamina - the guy who is wildly running circles to hit your back as you parry -> attack -> parry will die long before you do. And if he tries to run ... guess who has more stamina? Oh, and 1h / shield is a very short parry delay (on both the start and finish of the parry) - it's better for a fight than most people thing and suprises the crap out of some opponents.

BTW ... you will abuse your LMB. Not because it's just a melee clickfest. But because every skill is launched with your LMB (you queue a skill, then left-click to use it ... you'll understand why this is the case when you play and start learning to hold your spells / archery shots).

I have my issues with Darkfall (the interface in so many ways is terrible ... though I don't know what todays patch will bring yet). But combat has not been a dissapointment yet ... it just takes undoing all of your previous MMO experience first to understand and take advantage of this system.

[sodapop]

deeper than war yes

-
even though i would really like some mezz, backsnare, shield stunn

i've never played WAR so i cant really tell, yeah shield stun would be cool, dodging would be cool, simple 3-hit combo would be cool, anything that makes melee more complicated would be cool.

[sodapop]

As for the guy who says parry is useless ... lol. You're the type of person I would probably just roflstomp. If you're both using equal weapons, you use LESS stamina to parry efficiently than they do trying to run behind you as you simply mouse-turn and parry at the appropriate time. And that's if you even have to worry about stamina - the guy who is wildly running circles to hit your back as you parry -> attack -> parry will die long before you do. And if he tries to run ... guess who has more stamina? Oh, and 1h / shield is a very short parry delay (on both the start and finish of the parry) - it's better for a fight than most people thing and suprises the crap out of some opponents.


you're assuming you'll hit me after parrying my attack, well gl with that coz i'll be 2m away in random direction trying to hit you again, you just traded a dmg for a parry, and using 1hander that dmg is even worse.

you're simply assuming you'll parry each attack and always hit me back. yeah you'd probably roflstomp me, im that bad.

[Yakamoz]

Yes, stepping back, to the side or simply running past an opponent can avoid a blow. As long as they don't step forward, to the side or turn to hit as you run by.
In my opinion stepping back, to the side is basically too slow to compete with sprinting by your opponent.
In most cases you will get hit anyway especially when your weapon has got shorter reach then your opponent, I don't even talk about polearms.
I would like to see some tweaks in that part of combat and whole parrying system. Watch a random kendo or fencing video on youtube, successful parry gives them an opportunity to counterattack before they opponent will recover from a missed/parried blow. It would make melee much more enjoyable. Question is: is it possible from latency point of view.