Wait a while til everyone cries magic is gimped....

[sweet_tooth]

If you played uo you know what I mean. You finally hit 70 magery/eval and it was still useless. 80/80 it was usable, 90/90 decent, 100/100 was the balance. Consider that even hitting say 100 in fire magic your at like 50% of the trip for your max dmg inc, that doesnt even start til intensify trains up. And individual spell levels as well. Noob firebolt hitting for 30 will prob reach 60ish by endgame, that's not gimped at all.

[clockwork23]

But they want it now!

I agree with you, but a lot of spells/skills in the magic branch -are- broken or not working properly at the moment.

[inademv]

If you played uo you know what I mean. You finally hit 70 magery/eval and it was still useless. 80/80 it was usable, 90/90 decent, 100/100 was the balance. Consider that even hitting say 100 in fire magic your at like 50% of the trip for your max dmg inc, that doesnt even start til intensify trains up. And individual spell levels as well. Noob firebolt hitting for 30 will prob reach 60ish by endgame, that's not gimped at all.

At rank 25 with an air staff my ball lightning hits for 50.

[Damartyr]

The only problem with UOs magic system (at least when I played) was the fact that everyone was a tank mage pretty much. I know everyone in the game uses some magic, but at least you can get by with minimal usage.

[Tzacharu]

Magic certainly isn't gimped, you just need to learn when and when not to use it, and you need to work at it for awhile. The reward is with patience and determination.. and a lot of spare time, which is how magic should be handled. Not everyone should be running around with 50 dmg fireballs.

[inademv]

Magic certainly isn't gimped, you just need to learn when and when not to use it, and you need to work at it for awhile. The reward is with patience and determination.. and a lot of spare time, which is how magic should be handled. Not everyone should be running around with 50 dmg fireballs.

QFT

The sooner people get this idea through their exceptionally thick skulls, the sooner we can stop having threads like this.

[BlueOreo]

+1, +1, +1, agree with pretty much everyone.

As I said in the other thread, the gimpness of magic is yet to be established.

[Sonn Fere]

I would agree in the damage schools, however I'm sorry... Spellchanting is still useless minus a couple of the higher tier spells.

[inademv]

I would agree in the damage schools, however I'm sorry... Spellchanting is still useless minus a couple of the higher tier spells.

Buffing stamina/health by as much as 25% is useless amirite?

[NurfedRekuul]

Buffing stamina/health by as much as 25% is useless amirite?

Buffing stamina/health for 45 seconds by any amount is useless, yes.

[Elphaba]

I posted a thread yesterday in GD expressing a similar sentiment.

Indeed, my example was concerning the effect that 10 fire mages spamming AOE fire spells at the gate entrance to a clan city would have on the attacking force.

If you worked together, you would be one shotting a large amount of attacking players, as they tried to make their way into the city proper.

To complain about magic, at this time, seems quite premature.

[Kheiron]

I would agree in the damage schools, however I'm sorry... Spellchanting is still useless minus a couple of the higher tier spells.

the problem you are facing is with the player attributes granting very little effect, especially in comparison to other games.
I do Witchcraft myself, and I can tell you that dropping an attribute by 20 points has a negligable effect.

I did some testing with Sluggish and dropping Quickness by 20 points added around 0.1 seconds to the average attack time on the Redreach polearm, added 1 point of extra damage taken from the Redreach and took 20 stamina off the targets stamina pool.

However, you're still taking 20 points off an attribute with a level 25 Witchcraft spell, and it'll last for 1 minute 45 seconds.

When Witchcraft is completely mastered and people are running around with much higher attributes, you could, based on what I've seen, drop an attribute to, or very near, 0 which could, based on my testing, drop 80-100 points off any of the targets 3 pools, increase the damage they take from applicable attacks by somewhere around 30% (not including armour and other resistances) and go a long way towards neutering thier combat effectiveness, for at least a good few minutes.

The general motto of Darkfall magic seems to be Shit now, great later, which in my view is how it should be. This way you limit magic dabbling, which increases variance of playstyle which helps the balance from the skill cap system. You also can make magic something worthwhile, because it's so hard to achieve.

[pprllo]

The general motto of Darkfall magic seems to be Shit now, great later
Which is basically the motto of bad balancement.

"Shit now, great later" will not get you anywhere. If it's "great", then everyone will suck it up and grind it, if it's just "ok", then it's just an average ability that requires 5 times more grind than other abilities. Either way, it does not work.

[NurfedRekuul]

Which is basically the motto of bad balancement.

"Shit now, great later" will not get you anywhere. If it's "great", then everyone will suck it up and grind it, if it's just "ok", then it's just an average ability that requires 5 times more grind than other abilities. Either way, it does not work.

Exactly. Magic should not be ridiculously powerful later in exchange for it sucking now. It should be decent now and above average later. That way players can skip the grind and still be strong or choose to grind, and be slightly disadvantaged in exchange for being slightly advantaged later.

The goal is balance, and if magic ends up being imbalanced it shouldn't be hugely so just because people macro'ed the hell out of it.

[Atnas]

Which is basically the motto of bad balancement.

"Shit now, great later" will not get you anywhere. If it's "great", then everyone will suck it up and grind it, if it's just "ok", then it's just an average ability that requires 5 times more grind than other abilities. Either way, it does not work.

Yeah, quite true. I wish all skills were useful and good from the start, and easy to skill up- so that you could easily switch when you felt that you didn't want it anymore.

Everyone will be locked in the shit they've been skilling up because if they ever dropped it, they would lose so much resources and time it's insane.

[Kheiron]

Which is basically the motto of bad balancement.

"Shit now, great later" will not get you anywhere. If it's "great", then everyone will suck it up and grind it, if it's just "ok", then it's just an average ability that requires 5 times more grind than other abilities. Either way, it does not work.

No, it's good balance in a classless game because it stops people from getting a good chunk of magics functionality for merely dabbling in the classes.

This way you avoid having people with decent sword skills and parts of Necromacy being completely superior to a Master Necromancer because they can WTFBBQ him in melee and have comparable ability with magic as well.

People are also completely free to pick up any supplimental skills they feel necessary while grinding thier way up to satisfactory magic levels, which you just wouldn't be able to do in a class game like WoW.

All up, as a striving Necromancer and general Full Mage, I am happy with the current magic system.

[Atnas]

No, it's good balance in a classless game because it stops people from getting a good chunk of magics functionality for merely dabbling in the classes.

This way you avoid having people with decent sword skills and parts of Necromacy being completely superior to a Master Necromancer because they can WTFBBQ him in melee and have comparable ability with magic as well.

People are also completely free to pick up any supplimental skills they feel necessary while grinding thier way up to satisfactory magic levels, which you just wouldn't be able to do in a class game like WoW.

All up, as a striving Necromancer and general Full Mage, I am happy with the current magic system.

It's funny you should say that, seeing as how macroers are the most succesfull mages around, not the players at the computers using the skills in fights.

[Elphaba]

It's funny you should say that, seeing as how macroers are the most succesfull mages around, not the players at the computers using the skills in fights.

That's because a percentage of the current player base are, in fact, scum bags.

[Kheiron]

It's funny you should say that, seeing as how macroers are the most succesfull mages around, not the players at the computers using the skills in fights.

That's an issue with the grind and general advancement system of Darkfall, which allows you to level up magic without required targets, not the balance vs skill of magic.

Macroers kinda get shot in the foot anyway once they get past the no reagent spells too. Good luck getting the reagents AFK.

[Atnas]

That's because a percentage of the current player base are, in fact, scum bags.

No, that is because a percentage of the playerbase are still human.

That's an issue with the grind and general advancement system of Darkfall, which allows you to level up magic without required targets, not the balance vs skill of magic.

Macroers kinda get shot in the foot anyway once they get past the no reagent spells too. Good luck getting the reagents AFK.

I'm not sure what to say to this! Yeah, those macroers sure can't macro harvesting!

[pprllo]

No, it's good balance in a classless game because it stops people from getting a good chunk of magics functionality for merely dabbling in the classes.

This way you avoid having people with decent sword skills and parts of Necromacy being completely superior to a Master Necromancer because they can WTFBBQ him in melee and have comparable ability with magic as well.

People are also completely free to pick up any supplimental skills they feel necessary while grinding thier way up to satisfactory magic levels, which you just wouldn't be able to do in a class game like WoW.

All up, as a striving Necromancer and general Full Mage, I am happy with the current magic system.
I think you're not getting it.

Nothing will stop people from min/maxing their way to the best skill combos.

So, if Master Necromancer > Anything else, everyone will grind their ass up to Master Necromancy.

On the other hand, if Master Necromancer is on a par with Mid Necro + Master Swordsman, all you get is two chars with the same power, but the full-mage one took 5 times more time, gold and effort.

Either way, there's no good balance.

You should fully realize that there's one and only 1 balancing paradigm that works in skill based MMORPGs, and it is:

Good now, great later.

For all the skills.

[Elphaba]

No, that is because a percentage of the playerbase are still human.



Being human and being a scum bag are not mutually exclusive.

Of course, such may be difficult for the normal everyday scumbag to actually understand.

[Kheiron]

I think you're not getting it.

Nothing will stop people from min/maxing their way to the best skill combos.

So, if Master Necromancer > Anything else, everyone will grind their ass up to Master Necromancy.

On the other hand, if Master Necromancer is on a par with Mid Necro + Master Swordsman, all you get is two chars with the same power, but the full-mage one took 5 times more time, gold and effort.

Either way, there's no good balance.

You should fully realize that there's one and only 1 balancing paradigm that works in skill based MMORPGs, and it is:

Good now, great later.

For all the skills.

You're not taking into account the situations. This isn't a game of exclusive 1v1 duels.

Magic, due to it's inherent AoE, is essentially prohibited against targets engaged by freindly players in melee.

Archery is single target ranged, so can be used in that situation, but falls short of magic against groups.

Melee obviously lacks the range, so it's going to suck if you can't get to the target quick enough, but can attack multiple or individual targets at short distances.

Mages must use lighter armour then melee, so they're at a disadvantage in melee distance.

Melee and magic resists vary from armour to robes. Robes giving more magic resists, armour giving more weapon resists.

Someone who does min max the game and picks the best 1v1 set up could completely own all setups in 1v1. He's not going to automatically own every other set up when it comes time to seige, or he's not given the benefit of a start whistle, or he goes in PvE.

That's where the idea of 'which skill set is best' varies, and then varies again on player preference and the inclusion of player skill.
When you start giving players the option of being good at all situations and only loosing little or no functionality compared to someone who specialised, then the balance in broken.

That's why a Master Necromancer should be far better at magic then a novice, regardless of how many melee weapons he's decided to master.

[In Nox]

Still keeping my sig until I see some real results. :p

[disillusioned]

Useful spells below 70 magery in UO:

Recall
Strength buff/debuff
Dexterity buff/debuff
Intelligence buff/debuff
Lightning(solid 15 dmg)
MAGIC REFLECTION
Blade spirits
Incognito
Explosion(with a high fizzle rate)
Energy Bolt(with a high fizzle rate)


The only reason some of these spells were a bit less useful is because by the time evaluate INT did something, everyone already had 90+resist and a new mage had to get high to compete. Also as soon as a spell was cast, it was cast at an effectiveness equal to your magery. Some spells, like magic reflection and blade spirits, were cast at FULL effectiveness.


Here's the real kicker though. All these spells cost like 3 gold or less to cast, and a soloable mob in UO could drop anywhere from 300 to 800 gold. AND as soon as you had high enough magery to cast a spell, you could cast it at the effectiveness of yourmagery skill.

Imagine if you got to 100 magery and you could summon demons(very useful PvE spell) that were as powerful as mongbats and lasted only 30 seconds?


Had origin made every single spell you wanted to use a grind, it would have added NOTHING to the game.

[Lictor]

If you played uo you know what I mean. You finally hit 70 magery/eval and it was still useless. 80/80 it was usable, 90/90 decent, 100/100 was the balance. Consider that even hitting say 100 in fire magic your at like 50% of the trip for your max dmg inc, that doesnt even start til intensify trains up. And individual spell levels as well. Noob firebolt hitting for 30 will prob reach 60ish by endgame, that's not gimped at all.

Magic certainly isn't gimped, you just need to learn when and when not to use it, and you need to work at it for awhile. The reward is with patience and determination.. and a lot of spare time, which is how magic should be handled. Not everyone should be running around with 50 dmg fireballs.

Where have you been guys, when people were QQing about gimped magic? Of course, you are right. Magic might get slight boost (but not before at least some people hit one of Intensify *elemental* Magic subskill and it still sucks) but that's it.

[disillusioned]

Where have you been guys, when people were QQing about gimped magic? Of course, you are right. Magic might get slight boost (but not before at least some people hit one of Intensify *elemental* Magic subskill and it still sucks) but that's it.

Intensify most likely adds only 25% to damage at 100, so I wouldn't bank on that making all the difference in the world.

[NameTry2468]

Not everyone should be running around with 50 dmg fireballs.

I believe those are called "Arrows".

[Kheiron]

Intensify most likely adds only 25% to damage at 100, so I wouldn't bank on that making all the difference in the world.

And this is based on assumption alone, right?

Mana Efficiency will cut 12% of Mana costs at around 40, giving an estimate of 33% at 100.

Intensify might used the same percentages.

[Lictor]

And this is based on assumption alone, right?

Mana Efficiency will cut 12% of Mana costs at around 40, giving an estimate of 33% at 100.

Intensify might used the same percentages.

Rule of the thumb in this game is that if some skill's purpose is to improve something in game - be it a skill/spell/speed/success rate etc. - it almost always improve it by 30% when on 100.0. Of course, there are exceptions to this...

[disillusioned]

And this is based on assumption alone, right?

Mana Efficiency will cut 12% of Mana costs at around 40, giving an estimate of 33% at 100.

Intensify might used the same percentages.

Do the math, it comes out to 25%.


That is if it scales linearly. I haven't done the calculation since I was at 13, but I'll check again as soon as I use up my mana and post here.

If it's changed it means that it isn't linear, which would be awesome.

[Lictor]

Intensify most likely adds only 25% to damage at 100, so I wouldn't bank on that making all the difference in the world.

+ rather like 30% for Intensify Elemental Magic
+ some small % of dmg per each full point of Int
+ bonust from damage boosting staff (decreased casting speed, but it's probably worth it)
+ bonus from overall magery supporting skill(s) (there is one skill, that improves overall magic effects, one, that makes it eat less mana and stamina and another that increases chance, that it won't consume a reagent. Don't remember the names)
+ some minor improvement when spell reaches level 99.0

= I suppose quite decent damage.

The point is that it will take a lot of time, work, sweat, tears and skill to be a powerful mage. Nothing most people here are able to handle (even though they say, they can).

[Erroneous]

Intensify most likely adds only 25% to damage at 100, so I wouldn't bank on that making all the difference in the world.

And this is based on assumption alone, right?

Mana Efficiency will cut 12% of Mana costs at around 40, giving an estimate of 33% at 100.

Intensify might used the same percentages.

Rule of the thumb in this game is that if some skill's purpose is to improve something in game - be it a skill/spell/speed/success rate etc. - it almost always improve it by 30% when on 100.0. Of course, there are exceptions to this...

I found this funny since by my calculations the benefit to mana efficiency is heading toward 25%...

Edit:
That is if it scales linearly. I haven't done the calculation since I was at 13, but I'll check again as soon as I use up my mana and post here.

If it's changed it means that it isn't linear, which would be awesome.

48.3 here still linear

Edit II:
For the below, was this the same character casting in both incidences? how did you control for the change in your intelligence as you went from 0 to 100 intensify (if this even has any effect) and how do you define precisely given the built-in range of damage (aren't we looking for accuracy anyway)? If you don't understand why the point about mana efficiency is important than you aren't following the logic that you yourself are trying to use (with much less substantiation).

[Lictor]

Do the math, it comes out to 25%.


That is if it scales linearly. I haven't done the calculation since I was at 13, but I'll check again as soon as I use up my mana and post here.

If it's changed it means that it isn't linear, which would be awesome.

I did the calculation in case of LM and MM and it is precisely 30% at 100.0 Intensify Spells Lesser Magic.

[Lictor]

I found this funny since by my calculations the benefit to mana efficiency is heading toward 25%...

Edit:


48.3 here still linear

Mana efficiency yes - but we speak abou Intensify Spells Lesser Magic. Also, I've mentioned, that Aventurine still keeps on messing with skills and stats and weapons'/armour parameters all the time. With every patching some things might change. Sometimes it might even change previously completely useless skill/weapon into a wunderwaffe and vice versa...

[disillusioned]

What spell are you testing to calculate that 30% with intensify?

Damage seems to only be reported in whole numbers unless you get +back damage, in which case you might get a fraction like 12 2/3 or 12.6666665

And healing is only reported in strange rounded numbers too.

With mana efficiency we can get really accurate numbers.

[disillusioned]

Mana missle costs 7.182 to cost now, that's a reduction of 10.225 percent.

Healself costs 21.546 now, again a reduction of 2.454 or 10.225 percent

I have 40.9 mana efficiency. 10.225/40.9 x 100 = 25%


I don't think it's too much to assume intensify does the same. Can anyone give numbers about the other skills? Durable and cast time?

[pprllo]

You're not taking into account the situations. This isn't a game of exclusive 1v1 duels.

Magic, due to it's inherent AoE, is essentially prohibited against targets engaged by freindly players in melee.

Archery is single target ranged, so can be used in that situation, but falls short of magic against groups.

Melee obviously lacks the range, so it's going to suck if you can't get to the target quick enough, but can attack multiple or individual targets at short distances.

Mages must use lighter armour then melee, so they're at a disadvantage in melee distance.

Melee and magic resists vary from armour to robes. Robes giving more magic resists, armour giving more weapon resists.

Someone who does min max the game and picks the best 1v1 set up could completely own all setups in 1v1. He's not going to automatically own every other set up when it comes time to seige, or he's not given the benefit of a start whistle, or he goes in PvE.

That's where the idea of 'which skill set is best' varies, and then varies again on player preference and the inclusion of player skill.
When you start giving players the option of being good at all situations and only loosing little or no functionality compared to someone who specialised, then the balance in broken.

That's why a Master Necromancer should be far better at magic then a novice, regardless of how many melee weapons he's decided to master.
This is a completely different argument.

You're talking about specialization, and I completely agree with you.

I'm talking about effectiveness.

You should realize that if a skill is better than other skills (it has more overall effectiveness), 95% of the player will get that skill, not matter how grindy it is to get, period.

Because of this, skills must be balanced end-game wise (i.e. GM skills should match other GM skills in effectiveness), otherwise you will just have 95% of the player get the "EZMode" build.

So, the current sucky grind that magic is will never get a "retribution", it will just get as good as melee/archery is, requiring 5 times more grind. If it actually gets better, it will be eventually nerfed and/or 95% of the server population will switch to magic.

This has nothing to do with specialization, this is the simple and unavoidable balance mechanism of MMORPGs.

So, there's no "Sucks now, Great later", the best you will get is "Sucks now, Ok later".

[In Nox]

Ok it isn't really so much that magery is gimped. I'm sure if a player tries very hard he can become somewhat powerful using magery.

The problem is the countless hours of grinding and the tremendous cost to reach that level. I'm sorry but you'd have to be a complete no-lifer to get anywhere with magery in this game. I'm currently unemployed and play a whole lot, and I'm only at 6.2 water. My focus since coming into the game since release has been working on my magic.

I imagine you people with higher magic are A.) very experienced, played beta, knew exactly what to do B.) are supported by a large guild with a lot of funds or free reagents flowing your way or C.) a complete no-lifer who hasn't done anything but grind repeatable quests and macro magery 24 hours a day 7 days a week since release.

I'll be returning to work in 2 weeks and it seems my magery gains will have to slow as a result (in other words, stop completely if I want to actually PLAY the game when I have time to log in). I guess I'll never be able to get to a point where magery is cost effective and powerful enough.

Bummer. Sorry but that just isn't fun for me, and I'm sure a lot of others feel the same. I like playing a mage character in games, but don't have 24 hours a day free to grind out. I'm sure there are a handful of people out there who fall under A B or C above and will be having a great time on their mage. Everyone else will get fed up and leave the game.

[OvanOf Twilight]

If you played uo you know what I mean. You finally hit 70 magery/eval and it was still useless. 80/80 it was usable, 90/90 decent, 100/100 was the balance. Consider that even hitting say 100 in fire magic your at like 50% of the trip for your max dmg inc, that doesnt even start til intensify trains up. And individual spell levels as well. Noob firebolt hitting for 30 will prob reach 60ish by endgame, that's not gimped at all.

This is correct.
Stop whining carebears.

[Kheiron]

This is a completely different argument.

You're talking about specialization, and I completely agree with you.

I'm talking about effectiveness.

You should realize that if a skill is better than other skills (it has more overall effectiveness), 95% of the player will get that skill, not matter how grindy it is to get, period.

Because of this, skills must be balanced end-game wise (i.e. GM skills should match other GM skills in effectiveness), otherwise you will just have 95% of the player get the "EZMode" build.

So, the current sucky grind that magic is will never get a "retribution", it will just get as good as melee/archery is, requiring 5 times more grind. If it actually gets better, it will be eventually nerfed and/or 95% of the server population will switch to magic.

This has nothing to do with specialization, this is the simple and unavoidable balance mechanism of MMORPGs.

So, there's no "Sucks now, Great later", the best you will get is "Sucks now, Ok later".

How good or bad something is must be put into context. Otherwise, it's directionless speculation without practical application.

Magic will, and should be, great for it's utility and AoE damage potential in the later game.

Melee will be better for it's melee range survivability, limitation of friendly fire and sustained damage.

Archery will be better for sustained ranged, single target DPS.

There is no 'better' skill, because they each have thier pros and cons dependant on the situation in which they are used.

That is where the balance comes into effect, and that's where variety of effective playstyle stems from.

The only other question to be asked is at which point does the games skill cap system come into effect and whether it limits the ability to reach maximum potential across several situations or promotes specialization.

[pprllo]

How good or bad something is must be put into context. Otherwise, it's directionless speculation without practical application.

Magic will, and should be, great for it's utility and AoE damage potential in the later game.

Melee will be better for it's melee range survivability, limitation of friendly fire and sustained damage.

Archery will be better for sustained ranged, single target DPS.

There is no 'better' skill, because they each have thier pros and cons dependant on the situation in which they are used.

That is where the balance comes into effect, and that's where variety of effective playstyle stems from.

The only other question to be asked is at which point does the games skill cap system come into effect and whether it limits the ability to reach maximum potential across several situations or promotes specialization.

You are still talking about something different.

You said "Shit Now, Great Later", which implies that you expect magic to be somewhat better than other specializations to some degree. That is not going to happen.

Either that, or you think that all other specs are "Ok Now, Great Later", which leaves me asking "Why Magic has to get the Shit ?" and the striking answer is "Badly designed skill progression".

[inademv]

I believe those are called "Arrows".

Not everyone fights naked players at the starter areas.

[sweet_tooth]

It is a grind but meant to be that way. UO was no different. There were no completed mages 2 months into the game. If you could reach high level elemental by this point, your character would be complete within another couple months, and being a one char game, what would you do. Melee have certain skills that will take a longass time as well, defense for example, rigor (aside from people who used the bug), etc. Sure it's not as expensive but magery is meant to be rewarding. You don't need to grind it either. I have grinded a bit, but I also got from 50-80 lesser magic from just playing the game, then grinded it to 100. If you want to grind and be ahead of the curve go ahead, but if you spend your time farming monsters for example, you'll make money/regs in the process and gain your magic skills by using them on the shit your killin. A couple months from now when you wtfpwn people and they havent hit GM yet, see who's crying then. I mean a year down the road, being a vet, do you really want people to be able to join the game and within a month be on par with you char? I wouldn't.
UO was the exact same and within 6 mths it was no longer a issue.

[Kheiron]

You are still talking about something different.

You said "Shit Now, Great Later", which implies that you expect magic to be somewhat better than other specializations to some degree. That is not going to happen.

Either that, or you think that all other specs are "Ok Now, Great Later", which leaves me asking "Why Magic has to get the Shit ?" and the striking answer is "Badly designed skill progression".

No, there's your misunderstanding.

I haven't once compared magic to any other playstyle. The comparison, which the 'motto' stems from, was between magic at lower levels and magic at higher levels.

Not once did I reference magic outside of it's expected specialization of AoE and utility.

Even with magic truly becoming as good as I expect and hope it'll be, Melee will still WTFBBQ my arse if they get close enough, and archers will still WTFBBQ me 1v1.

As to why magic is such a pain in the arse, that's because it, more then the other playstyle choices, will have more impact in what is essentially the end game content of Darkfall, which is siege/guild warfare.
When you have an army rushing your gates, the thing that's going to prove most effective is something along the lines of setting a good chunk of them on fire.
You do not want this sort of ability being easy to come across, or rampant amongst the playerbase. It'll result in seiges being a spell throwing contest and trivialising the contribution of other playstyles, especially archery, in that situation.

Secondly is the utility aspect of magic. There are certain spells in certain schools that go a long way to improving the functionality of the other combat playstyles. Therefore magic, in part or in whole, crosses every playstyle.
It's not to much to have the most sort after aspect of the game being the most time/effort consuming.

[In Nox]

UO was the only thing out at the time, there was more to do in it, and we were all 12.

[pprllo]

No, there's your misunderstanding.

I haven't once compared magic to any other playstyle. The comparison, which the 'motto' stems from, was between magic at lower levels and magic at higher levels.

Not once did I reference magic outside of it's expected specialization of AoE and utility.

Even with magic truly becoming as good as I expect and hope it'll be, Melee will still WTFBBQ my arse if they get close enough, and archers will still WTFBBQ me 1v1.

As to why magic is such a pain in the arse, that's because it, more then the other playstyle choices, will have more impact in what is essentially the end game content of Darkfall, which is siege/guild warfare.
When you have an army rushing your gates, the thing that's going to prove most effective is something along the lines of setting a good chunk of them on fire.
You do not want this sort of ability being easy to come across, or rampant amongst the playerbase. It'll result in seiges being a spell throwing contest and trivialising the contribution of other playstyles, especially archery, in that situation.

Secondly is the utility aspect of magic. There are certain spells in certain schools that go a long way to improving the functionality of the other combat playstyles. Therefore magic, in part or in whole, crosses every playstyle.
It's not to much to have the most sort after aspect of the game being the most time/effort consuming.
You should finally realize that making an ability more or less grindy does not have any impact on its occurence in the playerbase. Only skill balancement does.

And that's the reason why the whole idea of "It is useful, make it grindy" is flawed. I really dunno how to explain this easier, there's no good reason gameplay-wise to make magic frustrating and grindy up to X skill.

[inademv]

You should finally realize that making an ability more or less grindy does not have any impact on its occurence in the playerbase. Only skill balancement does.

And that's the reason why the whole idea of "It is useful, make it grindy" is flawed. I really dunno how to explain this easier, there's no good reason gameplay-wise to make magic frustrating and grindy up to X skill.

"balancement" is not a fucking word.

[Kheiron]

You should finally realize that making an ability more or less grindy does not have any impact on its occurence in the playerbase. Only skill balancement does.

And that's the reason why the whole idea of "It is useful, make it grindy" is flawed. I really dunno how to explain this easier, there's no good reason gameplay-wise to make magic frustrating and grindy up to X skill.

Actually, the difficulty in obtaining the skill does impact it's prevailence in the playerbase. Not everyone plays the game to min max thier character and pwn other players.
In fact, just from the people I know, there are only a small fraction (i.e. 2, myself included) who are still willing to go the full mage route.

Also, for myself, the desire to master magic isn't due to any desire to make a better or stronger character. I'm just inclined towards that playstyle, happens in every game.

Also, as I've said, it is balanced because its situational use. Seiges will not make up the entirity of the game. AoE damage is not always the best solution. Each playstyle cliche will find it's own niche where it performs, almost regardless of skill level, better then the others.

That, along with player preference, will provide sufficient diversity in this classless game.

There are also several other factors which could have influenced the devs desire to extend the duration of mastering magic, from the financial 'Lets make people play longer to complete thier characters so we get more subscription payments' to the philosophical 'Magic would realistically be a much more challenging prospect then mastering a more martial profession'.
Hell, they could have put it in to give more meaning to the gathering professions and cycle through in game items easier.

All up I, as an aspiring full mage in Darkfall, am currently content with the magic system of the game, and as is often the case I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm far from the only one who thinks this way.

[sweet_tooth]

Yes UO was new, yes it's old, yes there was more to do. But the fact that it had the best, most balanced pvp in any MMO to date should be looked at more by MMO developers. Magery in UO was very very similar to the Darkfall magic grind, especially at the beginning of the game when regs were in high demand, like they are in darkfall. A couple years into the game and regs meant shit. Give it some time, the game just came out. Perhaps the grind could be lowered a bit, but to make it gain at the same rate as a sword skill would be dumb IMO.

[In Nox]

Part of my point is that no one is gonna be playing this game in a couple months. :(

[pprllo]

"balancement" is not a fucking word.
I think you should check your dictionary.
Actually, the difficulty in obtaining the skill does impact it's prevailence in the playerbase. Not everyone plays the game to min max thier character and pwn other players.
In fact, just from the people I know, there are only a small fraction (i.e. 2, myself included) who are still willing to go the full mage route.

Also, for myself, the desire to master magic isn't due to any desire to make a better or stronger character. I'm just inclined towards that playstyle, happens in every game.

Also, as I've said, it is balanced because its situational use. Seiges will not make up the entirity of the game. AoE damage is not always the best solution. Each playstyle cliche will find it's own niche where it performs, almost regardless of skill level, better then the others.

That, along with player preference, will provide sufficient diversity in this classless game.

There are also several other factors which could have influenced the devs desire to extend the duration of mastering magic, from the financial 'Lets make people play longer to complete thier characters so we get more subscription payments' to the philosophical 'Magic would realistically be a much more challenging prospect then mastering a more martial profession'.
Hell, they could have put it in to give more meaning to the gathering professions and cycle through in game items easier.

All up I, as an aspiring full mage in Darkfall, am currently content with the magic system of the game, and as is often the case I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm far from the only one who thinks this way.
You're totally missing the point. No one is going for magic because it is BUGGED and it SUCKS. If it turns out that 100 Fire = WTFPWN, you will see an ARMY of people willing to go 100 Fire.

Obviously, if it turns out 100 Fire = Just balanced, just a few people will go magic, because they have to put in 10x the effort for the same final result. But that's not a clever design choice, is just bad progression design, because there's no reason to force most of the playerbase in a melee/archer archetype if they are not willing to endure an endless grind.

[VidarDf]

got wind to 50 today. ball lightning to 45. Few more points and i'm guessing based on its damage increase at 25... it will be bad ass.

[Ozkar67]

I think you should check your dictionary.

You're totally missing the point. No one is going for magic because it is BUGGED and it SUCKS. If it turns out that 100 Fire = WTFPWN, you will see an ARMY of people willing to go 100 Fire.

Obviously, if it turns out 100 Fire = Just balanced, just a few people will go magic, because they have to put in 10x the effort for the same final result. But that's not a clever design choice, is just bad progression design, because there's no reason to force most of the playerbase in a melee/archer archetype if they are not willing to endure an endless grind.

This is wrong, if something takes longer and is harder to get, it SHOULD be better, plain and simple.

If something is easy to get, or easier, it shouldn't rape hard things to get. Magic does need to get a little love to at least be a little better then bow. Magic spells should do more damage then arrows.

[pprllo]

This is wrong, if something takes longer and is harder to get, it SHOULD be better, plain and simple.

If something is easy to get, or easier, it shouldn't rape hard things to get. Magic does need to get a little love to at least be a little better then bow. Magic spells should do more damage then arrows.
I already explained why this line of reasoning brings nowhere.

This is a fucking game, it's not the fucking real life, everyone can attain everything given enough time, moreso if we're just talking about skills that can be grinded to no end (i.e. it does not take SKILL, it just takes TIME).

Either you balance it, or your fucked it up, tertium non datur.

[Ozkar67]

It doesn't matter if this isn't real life, that way of thinking works with anything. Things that take time, will be better. The harder you work, the better you get.

[OvanOf Twilight]

I already explained why this line of reasoning brings nowhere.

This is a fucking game, it's not the fucking real life, everyone can attain everything given enough time, moreso if we're just talking about skills that can be grinded to no end (i.e. it does not take SKILL, it just takes TIME).

Either you balance it, or your fucked it up, tertium non datur.

You forget something called 'soft cap' Which is no one can get everything.
Plus, throwing Latin around, incorrectly too since there are more then two options and definitely a third, is not aiding your argument.
It is balanced fairly well, you just refuse to see it, in fact, your explanations are full of holes, just like the one I pointed out in this one. That's why people argue with you, your logic is full of holes and looks like swiss cheese.

/argument
<Move onto to something constructive>

[pprllo]

You forget something called 'soft cap' Which is no one can get everything.
Plus, throwing Latin around, incorrectly too since there are more then two options and definitely a third, is not aiding your argument.
It is balanced fairly well, you just refuse to see it, in fact, your explanations are full of holes, just like the one I pointed out in this one. That's why people argue with you, your logic is full of holes and looks like swiss cheese.

/argument
<Move onto to something constructive>
WTF has skill cap doing with this ? I'm talking about full build vs full build (if the so called soft cap will ever kick in :rolleyes:)
In the end, there are just 2 possible outcomes:

1) Magic build is just as good as any other build or worse, but more grindy -> Bad progression.
2) Magic build is better than any other build -> Bad balancement.

I will say this again, tertium non datur, it's either A <= B or A > B

[darthlawyer]

What I'm hoping for in raisng a more or less pure mage, with some crafting:

I'd like to be even with everyone else after working 10x harder to getting to "endgame" or whatever you want to call it.

Basically, I think this would make pure mages unique, and more of a symbol of the hard work, rather than of a mindless grind. In big battles, I'd like to see seas of armor wearing folks, and very few robes. Maybe I'm just being a dork, but I don't know of any fantasy setting where every 5th character is an uber-mage. Pure casters should be rare, not necessary OP, just rare.

[raff01]

I just say, its very much OK to make magic such a grind...on condition that it really surpases by far Archery or melee in the adequate situation.
A mage who got his fire magic to 100, who has all the passive spell abilities very high and a high rank staff should be able to nuke a whole group with AOE for over 75 dmg.

[Abremalist]

The problem is the countless hours of grinding and the tremendous cost to reach that level. I'm sorry but you'd have to be a complete no-lifer to get anywhere with magery in this game. I'm currently unemployed and play a whole lot, and I'm only at 6.2 water. My focus since coming into the game since release has been working on my magic.

/Signed

*If you expect to progress in the same speed as an archer or an tank becomes more dangerous*

I don't play much, but my only hope is to get spells that give some support. Like 'Heal Mount' or 'Launch'. Most other things feel at the moment as rather unrealistic ideas.

I can be a decent melee'r, scout and archer with a few hours a week. But as a mage I'll truly suck. That is compared with the others out there but also with the time invested.

But that is ok, I think its meant that way. That AoE casters of any significance and players able to open portal gates should be rare compared to the common soilder of any guild.

Problem I think is that many looks at the numbers and cries, because it looks so impossible.

[Salmuth]

I think that people also compare magic in DFO too much with magic in other MMOs. I know that I do that a bit. About grinding though, it's quite ok and logical (well we still need tweaks with the higher level skill spells so you really feel like getting better when you get new spells or get more skilled).

The buffs are a lot different. The debuffs are quite useless atm. And no knock back/mezz/stun/... makes magic a lot harder / a lot less useful/efficient IMO.

+ the targetting issue to debuff/heal when you have a 5v5 melee combat to support...

[FastEddy]

Here is another problem people dont realise with magic. Or at least dont see as a huge downside.

You can not wear armor. It was fine to run around in studded in beta because no one had skilled there other arms up that high. However if you are in studded now, you will get cut down like butter.

So your choices are, plate with almost same instant damage with bow and meelee but with the ability to do many more hits or,

Studded/banded (with unburden) with the ability to do about 7-8 shots (i am only at 27 Fire Magic) for 25-48 damage a peice. That seems like alot, but you got to hit them first. Not to mention they will hit you for 30ish with bows.

For PvP you are much better off going bow and meelee and leveling your lesser magic to just 75.

Perhaps in two years when my Fire Magic and intel/wisdom are all at 100 it will be worth it. Until then, if you say that magic is gimped, you just havent gotten out of Lesser magic.

[PKSinister]

Magic being useless at low skill is exactly why people are macroing it so much. We still don't know if it's useful at high levels either.

[Jezvin]

stop trying to kill people with magic.