Reduce Mana Costs of Greater/Elemental Magics

[NurfedRekuul]

The base costs for most spells in greater magic and the elemental trees is simply too high. After 100 intelligence, 100 wisdom, and 100 in both mana reductions is reached players will undoubtedly be able to cast a bunch of spells but those are unrealistic limitations to put on using spells in Darkfall.

The idea behind the skill system is that your abilities are always effective and get a little better as you use them. Not a lot better, but a little. Mana missile doesn't double in damage, and greater heal isn't suddenly half price. Its not realistic to believe greater magic and elemental magic will do those things either.

Because that is the case I think the base costs of spells should be set a bit lower: 24 mana cost spells could be reduced to 20, 40 mana cost buffs reduced to 34, etc. This should not greatly impact how things play out at the end game - and if those buff would make magic too effective later on the simple fix is to make the improvement buffs slightly less effective (they should be minor bonuses anyway, not absolutely required to be effective).

Also, Aventurine may want to slightly increase the damage of the rank 50 area of effect spells in exchange for keeping the mana cost the same. This would make casting an AoE an exchange of mana efficiency for utility rather than an exchange of mana efficiency and damage for utility.

[valerion]

yes i agree the mana cost is to high

currently what i tested with Darkheart staff

lightning bolt 36-40 (back) slightly faster small aoe 24 mana
mm 16-18 (back) large aoe 8 mana 48-54 dmg for same mana cost

[Lictor]

lightning bolt 36-40 (back) slightly faster small aoe 24 mana
mm 16-18 (back) large aoe 8 mana 48-54 dmg for same mana cost

Yeah, but you omit a very important DPS and spell travel speed factors here. That's why LB costs more. Did you do it on purpose?

[HeliosNorlund]

to be a real mage would include to use pure magic

to make it viable to other "roles" it need to have same downtime

as it is now a mage is first one reach 100 in rest without use macro...



solution to help pure mage without give hybrid guys an advantage:

decrease mana cost
increase stamina cost

that way a pure mage gain strenght
a hybrid who use spells between melee and archery lose strenght

[Atnas]

Why cast Eldritch Sphere for like 20 mana when you can cast Mana missile for 1/4 of that and still get the same effect, give or take 1 damage?

[valerion]

um learn to read? DPS wtf are you talking about that was the whole point and is listed there. is slightly faster to hard for you to comprehend also?
yes i agree the mana cost is to high

currently what i tested with Darkheart staff

lightning bolt 36-40 (back) slightly faster small aoe 24 mana
mm 16-18 (back) large aoe 8 mana 48-54 dmg for same mana cost





Yeah, but you omit a very important DPS and spell travel speed factors here. That's why LB costs more. Did you do it on purpose?

[HeliosNorlund]

Why cast Eldritch Sphere for like 20 mana when you can cast Mana missile for 1/4 of that and still get the same effect, give or take 1 damage?

dont compare a developed mm to a skill 1 eldrich sphere

[Avran]

The base costs for most spells in greater magic and the elemental trees is simply too high. After 100 intelligence, 100 wisdom, and 100 in both mana reductions is reached players will undoubtedly be able to cast a bunch of spells but those are unrealistic limitations to put on using spells in Darkfall.

The idea behind the skill system is that your abilities are always effective and get a little better as you use them. Not a lot better, but a little. Mana missile doesn't double in damage, and greater heal isn't suddenly half price. Its not realistic to believe greater magic and elemental magic will do those things either.

Because that is the case I think the base costs of spells should be set a bit lower: 24 mana cost spells could be reduced to 20, 40 mana cost buffs reduced to 34, etc. This should not greatly impact how things play out at the end game - and if those buff would make magic too effective later on the simple fix is to make the improvement buffs slightly less effective (they should be minor bonuses anyway, not absolutely required to be effective).

Also, Aventurine may want to slightly increase the damage of the rank 50 area of effect spells in exchange for keeping the mana cost the same. This would make casting an AoE an exchange of mana efficiency for utility rather than an exchange of mana efficiency and damage for utility.

/sign

[tuppari]

dont compare a developed mm to a skill 1 eldrich sphere

Except MM dosn't get any damage bonus from skill ranks.

[valerion]

Except MM dosn't get any damage bonus from skill ranks.

correction no spells get any damage bonus from skill ranks.

[HeliosNorlund]

correction no spells get any damage bonus from skill ranks.

not true my mm hit now for average 12 was at 8 when i started game

[Kheiron]

How about we wait a little while and see what happens further into the game.
We dont want to make the mistake of boosting the power of magic in the early game if it results in needing a nerf later on.
We'll have better gear, higher stats and even enchantments to deal with later.

Also, keep in mind the Mana Efficiency effect is a percentage. During beta, I tested LM Mana Efficiency and it gave approximately a 12% reduction in mana for LM spells at level 40, so I would assume we'd get a nice 1/3 off Mana cost at 100.

Also, MM does seem to get more powerful with ranks, you just wont see it when you use the Dawnstaff because staffs have a limiting effect on magic. You can double the power of MM by using a base stat rank 60 staff.

[Aramir]

I agree mana cost of most spells is just unbalanced.
Mana missile base is 8 mana and 8 damage.
Eldrich Sphere - 20 mana and 10 damage (should be same as mana missile = 8 mana, as it takes reagent and do almost same damage)
Rend - 24 mana and 12 damage (it is dot, burns reagent, has long cooldown, requires greater spell tree for minimal more damage = mana cost should be 8-10 mana or it can be 16-20 mana but no reagent used then)
Firebolt - 24 mana and 20 damage (mana should be 16-20)

Mana missile best mana efficient (damage done per mana spent) spell??? Sure damage per second potential should pair up with mana spent, but reagents taken and effort required to unlock spell should be taken into account as well.
Cooldown on most spells should be lifted too (rend, eldrich sphere and propably many more - they dont have special strength so why cooldown?).

In short magic requires huge rebalancing or all mages will just go for archery or leave game...

Edit:
Yes staffs and skills improve damage and mana efficiency but same boost is for all spells so it has no effect on comparing spells.
Level 100 in spell X gives 50% more damage to spell X, when trained to level 100 on pell Y it will boost spell Y by 50%. So: X dmg / Y dmg = a and 1,5 * X dmg / 1,5 * Y dmg = X dmg / Y dmg = a (same amount - spell level doesnt affect spell comparison, if all spells are checked on same level).

Just compare base stats of spells (damage and mana efficiency done on level 1 spell skill and removing effect of mana efficiency skill - if it gives 10% less mana cost just add this 10% to spell cost and you get base spell cost, comparable with everything). Differences noted on level 1 between spells will be same at level 100.

[valerion]

I agree mana cost of most spells is just unbalanced.
Mana missile base is 8 mana and 8 damage.
Eldrich Sphere - 20 mana and 10 damage (should be same as mana missile = 8 mana, as it takes reagent and do almost same damage)
Rend - 24 mana and 12 damage (it is dot, burns reagent, has long cooldown, requires greater spell tree for minimal more damage = mana cost should be 8-10 mana or it can be 16-20 mana but no reagent used then)
Firebolt - 24 mana and 20 damage (mana should be 16-20)

Mana missile best mana efficient (damage done per mana spent) spell??? Sure damage per second potential should pair up with mana spent, but reagents taken and effort required to unlock spell should be taken into account as well.
Cooldown on most spells should be lifted too (rend, eldrich sphere and propably many more - they dont have special strength so why cooldown?).

In short magic requires huge rebalancing or all mages will just go for archery or leave game...


like reverse the school progression

give everyone elemental then greater then lesser. lesser = best magic tree

[Milo Hobgoblin]

It would make more sense to just improve the returns on the mana efficiency skills for each school. Only real mages will get that skill to a reasonable level as you can even pick it up until 25.. and then it skills up slowly.. problem is that even when you sill it up.. it only reduces your mana use by a couple of points.

[Jackson]

After 100 intelligence, 100 wisdom, and 100 in both mana reductions is reached players will undoubtedly be able to cast a bunch of spells but those are unrealistic limitations to put on using spells in Darkfall.

no, they aren't.

[Jackson]

to be a real mage would include to use pure magic

to make it viable to other "roles" it need to have same downtime

as it is now a mage is first one reach 100 in rest without use macro...



solution to help pure mage without give hybrid guys an advantage:

decrease mana cost
increase stamina cost

that way a pure mage gain strenght
a hybrid who use spells between melee and archery lose strenght

or you could not be bad and juggle heath/mana and stam/health.

[Arisilde]

or you could not be bad and juggle heath/mana and stam/health.

yeah, and while you're wasting time casting those just so you can keep up your dps, archers are still firing arrows.

[inademv]

Except MM dosn't get any damage bonus from skill ranks.

Yes it does. My rank 90 mana missile hits for 13 in the front and 20 in the back. Compare that to a rank 1.

[inademv]

yeah, and while you're wasting time casting those just so you can keep up your dps, archers are still firing arrows.

And plinking targets in plate for 30 at their absolute best while mages throw down 50s on larger areas and multiple targets.

[Prometheas]

yeah, and while you're wasting time casting those just so you can keep up your dps, archers are still firing arrows.

pure mage ain't built for 1v1.

[In Nox]

Either remove regs / reduce reagent price / increase availability.
Increase damage a bit.
Or lower mana cost.

Any tweak that makes skills we have dumped tons of time and gold into better than Lesser Magic.

[NurfedRekuul]

no, they aren't.

By that reasoning melee weapons should use more stamina per swing as you skill up to account for the greater damage they do. Shooting a bow should cost multiple arrows and cost more stamina as you skill up and deal more damage.

Because by that logic the idea is to only make your greater skill in something viable when you've achieved the max possible character stats.

[NurfedRekuul]

yeah, and while you're wasting time casting those just so you can keep up your dps, archers are still firing arrows.

Haha, exactly.