Sword+Shield

[Lupios]

Does it make sense to use 1h sword+shield in PvP

Yes? Why?
No? Why?

[Elphaba]

I do, but I'm kinda thick headed at times, as well.

[Spineless_DoO]

With sync issues not atm. TBH the apeal to S&B is the fast attack animation and ability to block more on the fly. With 2 hand setups you are always stuck waiting for long animations. The way it is now there is no real twich aside from insane camera controls thus making the shorter range and lower dmg per hit of 1 hand setups a handicap in pvp.

[Kzuri]

Useful for riding on horse, and for blocking in PVP.

For 1v1, its better to use polearm.

[grybranix]

A solo attacker cannot easily kill me in my own territory, mostly because of my shield, and my skill with it isn't even very high.

The only way to take me down without making yourself intensely vulnerable would be to hit me with magic, and that's a bad idea when my arrows deal significantly more damage than your spells.

[Killbride]

I have mixed feelings about sword and board but since my skills are only in the mid-twenties its a little hard to form an opinion yet.

I was goofing around with a fellow Alfar the other day who was taking random pot-shots at me with his polearm. When I didn't block he would damage me for 12 HP; when I blocked with a Rank 10 crafted shield his damage went down to 1.2 HP - quite a difference!

Futhermore, I was able to block every one of his swings and hit him in return. He eventually gave up trying to damage me as he was getting low on stamina.

However, I can't get a good rhythm going when fighting mobs. There's just not enough time to block their swings and consistantly strike them with my sword (tested on goblins, kobolds and skeletons). But I can usually land three hits to their two hits on me.

Right now I would really appreciate less of a delay between the blocking and weapon swinging actions. But until I experience combat with a sword and shield at higher skill levels, I can't say anything concrete.

/my two cents

[Jamboreen]

I have mixed feelings about sword and board but since my skills are only in the mid-twenties its a little hard to form an opinion yet.

I was goofing around with a fellow Alfar the other day who was taking random pot-shots at me with his polearm. When I didn't block he would damage me for 12 HP; when I blocked with a Rank 10 crafted shield his damage went down to 1.2 HP - quite a difference!

Futhermore, I was able to block every one of his swings and hit him in return. He eventually gave up trying to damage me as he was getting low on stamina.

However, I can't get a good rhythm going when fighting mobs. There's just not enough time to block their swings and consistantly strike them with my sword (tested on goblins, kobolds and skeletons). But I can usually land three hits to their two hits on me.

Right now I would really appreciate less of a delay between the blocking and weapon swinging actions. But until I experience combat with a sword and shield at higher skill levels, I can't say anything concrete.

/my two cents

The vivid colour of your text Critted me for 1,000 points of hatred.

[Abremalist]

I've seen guys hold off some really horrible Mobs solo for x5 times longer then I can due to blocking and shields.

[Viluin]

Futhermore, I was able to block every one of his swings and hit him in return. He eventually gave up trying to damage me as he was getting low on stamina.


That is actually extremely overpowered. It means polearms and possibly other 2h weapons can't do ANYTHING against Sword + board. Add in the godlike mounted combat and we have a new FOTM.

I hope it's not true.

[xtibian]

I use S&B more than anything and I have found it works well in PvP the only thing is you have to use the shield. If you don't block its useless to have because anyone with a 2H will take you down. It takes practice but its pretty easy to block a 2H in PvP reducing the damage taken by a lot. One of my friends and I were goofin off the other day fighting eachother him with his 2H me with S&B we both had on full banded. The fight ended with him flat on his back and me at 75% health.

[Lupios]

I use S&B more than anything and I have found it works well in PvP the only thing is you have to use the shield. If you don't block its useless to have because anyone with a 2H will take you down. It takes practice but its pretty easy to block a 2H in PvP reducing the damage taken by a lot. One of my friends and I were goofin off the other day fighting eachother him with his 2H me with S&B we both had on full banded. The fight ended with him flat on his back and me at 75% health.

My Problem is that every time i try to block in PvP my opponent is too fast with every weapon...

I block and try to hit and re-block, but it doesnt work because during the re-block time he is able to hit me...

Blocking uses a lot of stamina as well.

[Anwyl]

The other day a friend and I were killing some Man-at-Arms and Guildmasters (quite tough). We're both pretty low-skilled and had leather-chain armor. We'd both equip sword and shield, have one guy block their attacks, while the other beats on them from behind. When they turn around to attack the other person, switch roles.

Rinse and repeat! Mix of scale and banded armor now. ;)

For PvE it's awesome, especially against tough-ish mobs.

In PvP, a shield is quite useful aswell.
You can a) Outlast the enemy and wait for friends to arrive
b) Outlast the enemies stamina
c) BLOCK ARROWS! (saved my butt quite a few times while being on the run from gankers)

:P

[xtibian]

My Problem is that every time i try to block in PvP my opponent is too fast with every weapon...

I block and try to hit and re-block, but it doesnt work because during the re-block time he is able to hit me...

Blocking uses a lot of stamina as well.

It is tricky at first and takes practice but once you get it down works well. Dodging will still be your #1 way to avoid attacks but the shield works for attacks you can't move out of the way from. You shouldn't base your fighting style around the shield because you're right it does take a bit of stam to block.

[Sabbathius]

That is actually extremely overpowered. It means polearms and possibly other 2h weapons can't do ANYTHING against Sword + board. Add in the godlike mounted combat and we have a new FOTM.

I hope it's not true.

No it's not. Blocking doesn't use up much stamina when your skill is high, BUT you still take 10% damage. So, someone hits you for 15, you block, you WILL take 1.5 damage. If the guy attacking you has food, mana to stamina or stamina pots enough to not run out of stamina, you WILL die eventually. The moment you start fighting back, you're trading blows, only your 1H blows do 10 damage, and his blows do 15 damage, so you lose.

Shield is only good for outlasting the opponent's stamina. If he took steps to prevent running out of stamina, you will lose.

[Lupios]

It is tricky at first and takes practice but once you get it down works well. Dodging will still be your #1 way to avoid attacks but the shield works for attacks you can't move out of the way from. You shouldn't base your fighting style around the shield because you're right it does take a bit of stam to block.

Ok i start to practice fucking hard :)

Furthermore i think that they shoul integrate some Shield-Skills.

Maybe a skill that makes it possible to block Dragonfire only with a shieldskill level 75 or something like that.

[Elmi]

If the guy attacking you has food, mana to stamina or stamina pots enough to not run out of stamina, you WILL die eventually.

You can have those too.

I do agree that it's not overpowered, though.

[Viluin]

No it's not. Blocking doesn't use up much stamina when your skill is high, BUT you still take 10% damage. So, someone hits you for 15, you block, you WILL take 1.5 damage. If the guy attacking you has food, mana to stamina or stamina pots enough to not run out of stamina, you WILL die eventually. The moment you start fighting back, you're trading blows, only your 1H blows do 10 damage, and his blows do 15 damage, so you lose.

Shield is only good for outlasting the opponent's stamina. If he took steps to prevent running out of stamina, you will lose.

That guy said he could fight back and still block the polearm's hit on time. He was killing the polearm user while taking pretty much no damage. If that is true then it's a huge problem, because if one person can do it then everyone with a shield can.

And you do realize that 1.5 damage is almost negated by natural regeneration right?

[2Luke2]

No it's not. Blocking doesn't use up much stamina when your skill is high, BUT you still take 10% damage. So, someone hits you for 15, you block, you WILL take 1.5 damage. If the guy attacking you has food, mana to stamina or stamina pots enough to not run out of stamina, you WILL die eventually. The moment you start fighting back, you're trading blows, only your 1H blows do 10 damage, and his blows do 15 damage, so you lose.

Shield is only good for outlasting the opponent's stamina. If he took steps to prevent running out of stamina, you will lose.

Actually with 77 1hd mace skill and 30+ 1hd mace mastery I can hit most light armored people for 30 in the back. Just some information for you.

Edit: Using a rank 30 weapon btw. I haven't found or had anything higher crafted. I would say that with a 1hd and shield I could probably take any 2hd weapon user. Not because of my skill, but just because it seems easy lol...

[xtibian]

No it's not. Blocking doesn't use up much stamina when your skill is high, BUT you still take 10% damage. So, someone hits you for 15, you block, you WILL take 1.5 damage. If the guy attacking you has food, mana to stamina or stamina pots enough to not run out of stamina, you WILL die eventually. The moment you start fighting back, you're trading blows, only your 1H blows do 10 damage, and his blows do 15 damage, so you lose.

Shield is only good for outlasting the opponent's stamina. If he took steps to prevent running out of stamina, you will lose.

That is if the S&B user didn't take steps to prevent running out of stam too.

[xtibian]

Ok i start to practice fucking hard :)

Furthermore i think that they shoul integrate some Shield-Skills.

Maybe a skill that makes it possible to block Dragonfire only with a shieldskill level 75 or something like that.


a shield knockback would be nice I should be able to slam someone with my shield and do damage and knockback.

[Viluin]

Actually with 77 1hd mace skill and 30+ 1hd mace mastery I can hit most light armored people for 30 in the back. Just some information for you.

Edit: Using a rank 30 weapon btw. I haven't found or had anything higher crafted. I would say that with a 1hd and shield I could probably take any 2hd weapon user. Not because of my skill, but just because it seems easy lol...

Man, I hit for maybe 20-25 in the back with a rank 20 2h sword. And that's if they're naked. :( Mastery makes that big of a difference?

[2Luke2]

Shield is only good for outlasting the opponent's stamina. If he took steps to prevent running out of stamina, you will lose.

Even with food and mod stam pots hitting someone while they are blocking will run you out of stam faster than you can regen with both active. I don't know if it has to do with how higher your parry skill is because mines only around 50, but it takes chunks of stam from the person hitting the shield.

[2Luke2]

Man, I hit for maybe 20-25 in the back with a rank 20 2h sword. And that's if they're naked. :( Mastery makes that big of a difference?

No that was using power attack in the back with a rank 30 weapon. Hit for 36. something damage. 20s are doable though. Armor makes a huge difference along with defense skill. You can tell right away who is the new guy and who isn't as soon as you lay a weapon on them lol....

[Suitepee]

That is actually extremely overpowered. It means polearms and possibly other 2h weapons can't do ANYTHING against Sword + board. Add in the godlike mounted combat and we have a new FOTM.

I hope it's not true.

I'd agree......except that the 2h'ers could easily not hit the guy when he's blocking and instead focus on flanking and making them waste stamina blocking against attacks that ain't coming.

That being said I've yet to fight anyone using 1h + sword strategies. It's mainly 2h'ers.

[Lictor]

That is actually extremely overpowered. It means polearms and possibly other 2h weapons can't do ANYTHING against Sword + board. Add in the godlike mounted combat and we have a new FOTM.

I hope it's not true.

You hope what is not true? That when you block with a shield almost all the damage gets soaked and with new patch you can quickly counterstrike and hit him while he's in mid-swing with his polearm? Bad news for you: it's true. :ninja:

[Sabbathius]

I'd agree......except that the 2h'ers could easily not hit the guy when he's blocking and instead focus on flanking and making them waste stamina blocking against attacks that ain't coming.

That being said I've yet to fight anyone using 1h + sword strategies. It's mainly 2h'ers.

Unless you have bad ping, you have plenty of time to bring a block up if you see the guy winding up an attack. So you don't burn stamina needlessly. However, the thing is, you can't attack. If he sees YOU attack, he will attack also, and you will trade blows. Only his will hit you considerably harder than yours will him, or you will miss altogether if he steps backwards, while he will still land a hit.

Blocking isn't a problem. The problem is that you can't abort an attack and throw up a block. Once you started attacking, you're committed to it, and 1H won't have enough time to swing and bring the block up if the guy he's fighting sees your attack and attacks also.

Okay, I'm prepared to admit that if you both chug pots, eat food and use mana to stamina and stamina to health, the guy with a 2H/Polearm may not be able to kill you. But guess what? You won't be able to kill him either, if he's any good at all. 1H have pitiful range. So it's a good survivor tactic, I guess, but not too good if you're actually trying to kill something.

To the guy who said at 77 skill he does 30 damage, that's irrelevant. I just used 10 and 15 as example numbers for 1H damage and 2H/polearm damage. I'm sure at skill 77 with rank 30 polearm, the polearm user will do a heck of a lot more than 30 damage in the back.

[DwellerBelow]

That is actually extremely overpowered. It means polearms and possibly other 2h weapons can't do ANYTHING against Sword + board. Add in the godlike mounted combat and we have a new FOTM.

I hope it's not true.

Sword does so little damage, and has such short range, compared to a polearm, stfu.

And archers own riders, figure it out.

[Sabbathius]

Sword does so little damage, and has such short range, compared to a polearm, stfu.

And archers own riders, figure it out.

Well, if you're not dancing around like a fairy, you can stick to the guy pretty closely, and negate his reach. If you're eyeball to eyeball, it doesn't matter if he has a 3m reach and you have 1m reach, of you are standing 1cm apart. So I guess you can ignore range, you can get in his face, he swings, you block, counter. Stand again. He swings, you block, counter. Again, wait. If he gives up and runs, switch to bow/staff and let him have it. It's a tactic, albeit a slow one.

[Lupios]

You hope what is not true? That when you block with a shield almost all the damage gets soaked and with new patch you can quickly counterstrike and hit him while he's in mid-swing with his polearm? Bad news for you: it's true. :ninja:

No dude its not true, because the delay between attackng and blocking ist not that short as you maybe think.
It is not possible to block an attack, start a block and than re-block another attack and so on.
The time you need to start an attack after blocking is long enough to attack the blocker.

[Sabbathius]

No dude its not true, because the delay between attackng and blocking ist not that short as you maybe think.
It is not possible to block an attack, start a block and than re-block another attack and so on.
The time you need to start an attack after blocking is long enough to attack the blocker.

Not against a polearm. It goes like this:

PA user swings
S user presses block
PA user hits
S user releases block, waits 1 second, swings his weapon.
PA user has just finished his stroke
Repeat

The 2handers have wide arcs, polearm has possibly the widest arc of all. It has to traverse that entire arc, and come back to default position, before you can do anything else. But with 1H+Sword, block snaps up much faster now, and goes away faster. So if you let go of block the second the polearm hits you and counterattack, you'll land a hit (assuming you're close enough) and have enough time to throw the next block up before he can land the next swing arc reaches you. Works vs polearm, does not work vs 2H sword, not enough time, 2H sword will hit you while your 1H swing finishes, but before shield is brought up.

[Crindle]

It is balanced. If you have not figured out how to fight a S&B, then that is your loss. It is easy if you think about your opponent rather then just running around wasting stam and hacking away.

S&B: Both take stam, less reach, lower damage, block takes stam.
Polearm: takes stam to swing, higher damage, more reach.

[Furtin]

I have 80 Swords, 40 Swords Mastery, and 50 Parry. Impossible to kill in full armor with shield in 1v1. I block spells (firebolt), arrows, 2h/polearm swings, etc. Nothing does over 1 dmg to me. I hit for double what new characters hit for, with the same noob weapon. I also can swing nearly 3x the swings before running out of stamina than the normal player.

[Malkaran]

Quick question as your parry goes up, does it take less stamina to block?

I just started out using sword/board, and I am liking it so far! I usually PvP in a group, so I really don't have to worry about 1v1 against a polearm user...

[Lupios]

I have 80 Swords, 40 Swords Mastery, and 50 Parry. Impossible to kill in full armor with shield in 1v1. I block spells (firebolt), arrows, 2h/polearm swings, etc. Nothing does over 1 dmg to me. I hit for double what new characters hit for, with the same noob weapon. I also can swing nearly 3x the swings before running out of stamina than the normal player.

And now?

You wish that we roll out the red carpet and sing glory Halleluja?

[Furtin]

Quick question as your parry goes up, does it take less stamina to block?

I just started out using sword/board, and I am liking it so far! I usually PvP in a group, so I really don't have to worry about 1v1 against a polearm user...

Yes. Also, I noticed at 0 skill, I could not block a swing after seeing the animation, once I hit 25 skill, I could block shortly after seeing the enemy swing animation and successfully block the hit. This could be an overall change in a recent patch, or it could be an upgrade at 25 skill, I don't know.

[Killbride]

I have 80 Swords, 40 Swords Mastery, and 50 Parry. Impossible to kill in full armor with shield in 1v1. I block spells (firebolt), arrows, 2h/polearm swings, etc. Nothing does over 1 dmg to me. I hit for double what new characters hit for, with the same noob weapon. I also can swing nearly 3x the swings before running out of stamina than the normal player.

We the noobie S&B's thank you for the inspiration!

[Furtin]

And now?

You wish that we roll out the red carpet and sing glory Halleluja?

No, I am merely commenting on the viability of Sword+Shield, as the topic states. So fuck off.

[Ssly]

That is actually extremely overpowered. It means polearms and possibly other 2h weapons can't do ANYTHING against Sword + board. Add in the godlike mounted combat and we have a new FOTM.

I hope it's not true.

it is. S&B is by far the most effective pvp maneuver if you're either zerging or 1v1. Sadly it's largly ineffective when outnumbered =/

[Merlin-DDi]

Shield is only good for outlasting the opponent's stamina. If he took steps to prevent running out of stamina, you will lose.

Who says the shielduser cant use food, pots and what ever?

[Skraylok]

That is actually extremely overpowered. It means polearms and possibly other 2h weapons can't do ANYTHING against Sword + board. Add in the godlike mounted combat and we have a new FOTM.

I hope it's not true.

1st Grats on using FOTM. 2nd every weapon has its uses and strong points. We also have our weaknesses. I use 1h mace and shield as my primary melee config... I cant touch the range of a sword but i hit a little harder. I can tank a polearm down to 0 stam and still have half, but i cant kill a man with a half bar of stamina.

[Sunspots]

1st Grats on using FOTM. 2nd every weapon has its uses and strong points. We also have our weaknesses. I use 1h mace and shield as my primary melee config... I cant touch the range of a sword but i hit a little harder. I can tank a polearm down to 0 stam and still have half, but i cant kill a man with a half bar of stamina.

This is when you use your own two hander on your opponents backside.

[Lupios]

No, I am merely commenting on the viability of Sword+Shield, as the topic states. So fuck off.

Yes of course you said that...
But you just said how great you are and that you are such a imba person...

FAIL

[Karter]

That is actually extremely overpowered. It means polearms and possibly other 2h weapons can't do ANYTHING against Sword + board. Add in the godlike mounted combat and we have a new FOTM.

I hope it's not true.

You can parry with all weapons which also reduces damage, just not as much as shields do.

[MrDDT]

That is actually extremely overpowered. It means polearms and possibly other 2h weapons can't do ANYTHING against Sword + board. Add in the godlike mounted combat and we have a new FOTM.

I hope it's not true.

Funny is how people keep thinking this yet Ive never seen a sword board guy win a fight.

1)They fall out of stam and die.
2)They dont do crap for damage.

Sword + Board need to be fixed with lower stam cost on EACH use. Not duration. If that is fixed it will be great.
People that hold it down will drain stam fast (its already like this but needs to be more so).
If you time the attacks correctly you should us very little stam.
To balance it out a bit, you can even make them take more damage per hit. Right now its like 5% of the damage. Just make it so they take like 7.5% or 10%.
If you cut off the stam cost make it so people take slighting more damage. To make it perfect.

[Viluin]

1st Grats on using FOTM. 2nd every weapon has its uses and strong points. We also have our weaknesses. I use 1h mace and shield as my primary melee config... I cant touch the range of a sword but i hit a little harder. I can tank a polearm down to 0 stam and still have half, but i cant kill a man with a half bar of stamina.

You can't kill a man with half a bar of stamina? When someone is not fighting back I can kill him with 1/6 my stamina bar. Less if it's from behind. I call bs on what you just said. Even if you do 5 damage per swing (as if), half a bar of stamina should get you over 60 swings.

And it is a problem when shields can be used to block every single polearm swing as well as getting a free retaliation. It doesn't make polearms bad against shields, no, it makes them completely useless. I don't use polearms so it's not a problem for me, but it is most definitely a balance issue when one build can rape another build without fear of even getting hurt.

[Lupios]

it is most definitely a balance issue when one build can rape another build without fear of even getting hurt.

But if you drain the shield you make it useless against other PvP Weapons, and if you raise the polearm you make it overpowered agains other Weapons:bang:

[Viluin]

But if you drain the shield you make it useless against other PvP Weapons, and if you raise the polearm you make it overpowered agains other Weapons:bang:

Sounds like something else needs to be changed..

[Kebab-Kastike]

I've found that Shield is uselful in grouped PvE.
Let the mob hit your shield while your friend beats them in the back. Once they turn around you start baking the mob in the back.

In PvP one handers are useful in mounted combat.

[Lupios]

I've found that Shield is uselful in grouped PvE.
Let the mob hit your shield while your friend beats them in the back. Once they turn around you start baking the mob in the back.

In PvP one handers are useful in mounted combat.

Nice summing up of the foundations :P

[Septus]

And it is a problem when shields can be used to block every single polearm swing as well as getting a free retaliation.

Except it doesn't unless you just spam your pole arm swing and LET the S&B block+counter. :idea:

If you wait for HIM to swing, you can dodge and hit him or even trade blows and outdamage him.

Or back up and switch to range, or feign such (switch to range and switch back to melee when he rushes in), etc.

And if you get him to throw up block, he's vulnerable after that - he either needs to keep it up and drain stam, or get hit when he brings it down (animation).

[paxprobellum]

Except it doesn't ...

You tried, I'll give you that. However, 4 pages in and no one gets it. The moral of this whole thread is "the more skilled player wins"! Everyone came in to say "S&B sucks. Polearms FTW" or "S&B Rules. I eat polearms for breakfast", because that's their bias. But that's the beauty of DF. A good player beats a bad player EVERY TIME - Spec, skills, etc. out the window.

[Shinimas]

Sounds like something else needs to be changed..

Why? S&S>Pole, Pole>Any other 2 handed weapon at beating on non-shield fighters. Pole is still imba to me, but at least it has a harsh counter, and everybody can pick up a shiled and go blocking.

[Viluin]

Except it doesn't unless you just spam your pole arm swing and LET the S&B block+counter. :idea:

If you wait for HIM to swing, you can dodge and hit him or even trade blows and outdamage him.

Or back up and switch to range, or feign such (switch to range and switch back to melee when he rushes in), etc.

And if you get him to throw up block, he's vulnerable after that - he either needs to keep it up and drain stam, or get hit when he brings it down (animation).

What if he doesn't swing and waits for YOU to swing? Yeah, that'll be fun. :bang: Whoever swings first loses.

[Jinothius]

Funny is how people keep thinking this yet Ive never seen a sword board guy win a fight.

1)They fall out of stam and die.
2)They dont do crap for damage.

Sword + Board need to be fixed with lower stam cost on EACH use. Not duration. If that is fixed it will be great.
People that hold it down will drain stam fast (its already like this but needs to be more so).
If you time the attacks correctly you should us very little stam.
To balance it out a bit, you can even make them take more damage per hit. Right now its like 5% of the damage. Just make it so they take like 7.5% or 10%.
If you cut off the stam cost make it so people take slighting more damage. To make it perfect.

If they don't do crap for damage then I am going Sword and shield!

[Furtin]

For the record, at 50 parry, using my shield takes no more stamina than sprinting did at skill level 25 or so. Needless to say I can parry every attack from someone with a 2h/polearm/1h and have 25+% stamina left, at 80 sword skill thats enough stamina to kill 2 people.

[grybranix]

This is when you use your own two hander on your opponents backside.

Arrows!

[GroovyBob]

I fought a S&B guy once. I was solo naked raiding, and I snuck up onto a miner. I got two hits on his back with my polearm and he started running. At this point, I'm confident, even after he starts casting mana to stam (wich I don't have). Then, he pulls out S&B and starts blocking me constantly, and using mana to stam whenever he can fit it. As you can expect, I'm running out of stamina by now.

So you got something like this:
What if he doesn't swing and waits for YOU to swing? Yeah, that'll be fun. :bang: Whoever swings first loses.

And it was really fun trying to outmaneuver, backing off, etc.
But he was just too good, and I'm a noob, so I died. And this guy ended up with 90% health!

So that was my lesson of how shields are useful.

[Jorogos]

The balance between S&B vs PA seems just about right to me

[xtibian]

There will always be someone talking about how something needs to be nerfed. The reason for this is not because it is OP but because they die and get pissed. The fact of the matter is there is always going to be someone out there that can kill you. It doesn't matter what they use if thats what they are skilled up in and they are better than you you will probably die. Don't cry about it just learn from the experience and next time take steps to turn the tides in your favor. The only style of fighting that is broken right now is daggers. The rest are fine and all are able to win a fight if you know what you're doing.

[BigCountry]

I use it. Works better in PvP if side swinging. Overhead is rough, but offers better protection if fighting with guild members.

So

Sideswing = 1v1
Overhead = group

[Viluin]

Sideswing = 1v1
Overhead = group


We established this about 2 months ago.

[Frisbo]

And it is a problem when shields can be used to block every single polearm swing as well as getting a free retaliation. It doesn't make polearms bad against shields, no, it makes them completely useless. I don't use polearms so it's not a problem for me, but it is most definitely a balance issue when one build can rape another build without fear of even getting hurt.

No, this isn't a balance problem at all. Rock ALWAYS beats Scissors and Scissors ALWAYS beats Paper. That's how these things work. It's called balance.

Sword and Board is fast enough and defensive enough to take on and win against Polearms. However, the same Sword and Board is not fast enough to take on 2-h Sword. In an oversimplified example, if Polearm beats 2-h sword, we have an RPS situation, which is balanced.

In reality, there are more builds, damage type and armor come into play with some of them, AND best of all, you don't have to dedicate all your training to one melee weapon. You could train Polearm and 2-h sword, and if you face 2-h sword, you wield your polearm and if you face S&B you wield your 2-h sword.

Nothing, in fact, needs to be changed, unless it can be shown that a build either A) is better than all builds or B) is worse than all builds.

Unless you can find a situation like that, there is no urgency for a change, especially in the name of balance.

[Viluin]

No, this isn't a balance problem at all. Rock ALWAYS beats Scissors and Scissors ALWAYS beats Paper. That's how these things work. It's called balance.

Sword and Board is fast enough and defensive enough to take on and win against Polearms. However, the same Sword and Board is not fast enough to take on 2-h Sword. In an oversimplified example, if Polearm beats 2-h sword, we have an RPS situation, which is balanced.

In reality, there are more builds, damage type and armor come into play with some of them, AND best of all, you don't have to dedicate all your training to one melee weapon. You could train Polearm and 2-h sword, and if you face 2-h sword, you wield your polearm and if you face S&B you wield your 2-h sword.

Nothing, in fact, needs to be changed, unless it can be shown that a build either A) is better than all builds or B) is worse than all builds.

Unless you can find a situation like that, there is no urgency for a change, especially in the name of balance.

Rock paper scissors "balance" is the worst type of balance. It's incredibly shallow and easy to implement (Usually a sign of a crappy game, with only a few exceptions), it destroys solo gameplay and it wasn't the intention of the developers otherwise we'd find it in other areas of the game as well rather than just 1h sword vs polearm.

[grybranix]

Rock paper scissors "balance" is the worst type of balance. It's incredibly shallow and easy to implement (Usually a sign of a crappy game, with only a few exceptions), it destroys solo gameplay and it wasn't the intention of the developers otherwise we'd find it in other areas of the game as well rather than just 1h sword vs polearm.

Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Get off your soapbox.

[Rogun]

it is. S&B is by far the most effective pvp maneuver if you're either zerging or 1v1. Sadly it's largly ineffective when outnumbered =/

Is anything really effective when you are outnumbered?

[Hapless{SR}]

I fought a S&B guy once. I was solo naked raiding, and I snuck up onto a miner. I got two hits on his back with my polearm and he started running. At this point, I'm confident, even after he starts casting mana to stam (wich I don't have). Then, he pulls out S&B and starts blocking me constantly, and using mana to stam whenever he can fit it. As you can expect, I'm running out of stamina by now.

So you got something like this:


And it was really fun trying to outmaneuver, backing off, etc.
But he was just too good, and I'm a noob, so I died. And this guy ended up with 90% health!

So that was my lesson of how shields are useful.

Heh, I've had that scenario happen with me as the shield user..You wouldn't happen to be an Alfar down near chillbourne human town?

[valerion]

another one of these fail threads

A retard is the only one that is going to stand there attacking you over and over with a polearm while you block, and run out of stam. why should every other weapon user have to be skilled to beat a polearm. Hmm maybe its not balanced just a thought.

and add special effect for every weapon if polearm has slight knockback...

[Frisbo]

Rock paper scissors "balance" is the worst type of balance. It's incredibly shallow and easy to implement (Usually a sign of a crappy game, with only a few exceptions), it destroys solo gameplay and it wasn't the intention of the developers otherwise we'd find it in other areas of the game as well rather than just 1h sword vs polearm.

Zero-sum balance is not shallow, it is the only true game balance. Yes, RPS is simple, and therefore shallow. But if it's not zero-sum, it's not balanced. If Sword & Shield can always beat Polearm in the perfect situation, it's not unbalanced unless you consider the system as a whole, not just the one relationship.

Looking at just one relationship in a complex system is a surefire way to make huge mistakes in balance.

[grybranix]

Things can be balanced without appearing to be balanced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G2iC2YcQNU

[nathanpinard]

Blocking isn't really about holding the button down, it's more tapping the button at the right time. If you do this (which is kind of difficult) you can make the 2h run out of stam before you.

You can also do this with 2h also of course.

[Viluin]

You can also do this with 2h also of course.

You'll die if you do this. The 2h is too slow to retaliate after blocking so basically you're just blocking, and only 60% damage will be blocked.

Parrying with 2h weapons serves no purpose other than blocking ranged attacks and "losing aggro" in group PvP (If you're parrying they'll likely attack your friend).