Seperate "swing arc" from "range"

[Squirry]

The current weapon balance, as we all know, is non-existent. For melee there is only polearm, 2h sword and sword and board. I've seen numerous takes on why this is or how it could be solved but i've yet to be convinced by any of the arguments. So here's my take at a way to make the weapon arsenal more diverse.

It seems that when the devs constructed the weapon types the used 3 different variable to "balance" them:

- Range
- Damage
- Speed

My suggestion is to add a forth, one that is already present in the mechenics, but so far is tied to range:

- Swing arc

The reason polearms and 2h swords are valued so highly is due to their range and swing arc. In a real time aim-based game where lag spikes and sync issues are the deciding factor in a battle more often than not, having the best possible chance to land a blow is vital. And as range and swing arc is connected these tow weapons are THE best choices if you want to maximize your chance to hit the opponent.

It seems obvious that the devs underestimated the importance of this, something they are more than likely also aware of. Damage means little if you don't hit and speed means even less if you only hit with every 5th strike. But it may be that they are too busy creating this game for us that they don't play it much and are thus not as aware as the players of the actual combat mechanics.

I believe i have covered my reason for the suggestion and what i think it could accomplish, but let me illustrate with a few examples based on fictionary numbers:

Let's take two opposites; the dual knives and the polearm. The fictional numbers state that right now they have the following stats.

Polearm
- Damage 15 (base damage on hit)
- Range 5 (In feet)
- Speed 3 (seconds between each hit)

Knives:
- Damage 10
- Range 1
- Speed 1

These numbers are made up but more or less reflects how these two weapons are balanced against each other right now. Notice that on paper (and thus to the devs) these two weapons look almost equally good depending on the playstyle of the player. But in practice this is so far from the truth as can be, as those that have tried know.

Imagine now we add in the 4th variable and the weapons look like this:

Polearm
- Damage 15 (base damage on hit)
- Range 5 (In feet)
- Speed 3 (seconds between each hit)
- Arc 45 (in degrees)

Knives:
- Damage 10
- Range 1
- Speed 1
- Arc 180

These numbers might be a bit extreme but remember it's just for the sake of clarification. The low arc on the polearm is based on it being long and hard to wield and the weapon being naturally better at stabbing and cutting than chopping and slashing (debateable, but bear with me), while the high arc on the knives reflect that they are dual wielded and far easier to make quick thrusts with.

Suddenly we have a situation where the person using knvies will benefit from flanking the polearm user whereas the polearm wielding player would benefit most from keeping a certain distance and facing his opponent to get most hits in and to prevent him from flanking.

I guess that's about as well as i can explain myself right now. Feel free to debate, flame or ignore.

[Adrilanka]

Seems like it would add to balancing weapons and make the choices between them more interesting.

[bdjhall]

Good idea.

[Jhael]

+1

[Teldjinn]

I think it seems fairly balanced imho. Especially the polearms

[Eep]

needs moar dagger users.

[Haeso]

I think it seems fairly balanced imho. Especially the polearms

Polearms are just extra-balanced.

[Nocturne]

Good idea. Let's people get in close, and the skill comes into play with how long you can maintain that distance with large arc weaponry.

[Rodhull]

I suggested in beta (as did other people along similar lines) the best way of 'balancing' weapons would be to add weapons specific skills.

So lets just say for instance:-
(we'll group 1 and 2 handed versions together for ease of example)

Axes - get a dps skill like 'hack' or something like that which does obscene damage, - has a moderate cooldown timer

Blunts - get some form of knockdown (different to knockback) or some minor form of stun which actually makes the opponents screan go hazy for a time or something, lets call this skill 'brained' - has a moderate cooldown timer

Swords - Get some form of parry/riposte skill which when activated automatically blocks say 30% damage but then attacks back instantly giving little time for the oponent to dodge - has a slow cooldown timer

Polearms - Get some form of skill versus mounts called say 'set for charge' (crap name i know) which essentially roots the player to the spot for say 10 seconds BUT any mounted player attacking them while its active automatically gets dismounted - has slow cooldown timer

Daggers - Get backstab, if you activate it while behind the oponent you do 5 times normal damage - slow cooldown

This would give the weapons more of an actual purpose and a defined use, people who want to fight more tactically would obviously use swords and polaerms those wanting pure dps would put up with the lower overall usefullness of axes and clubs to gain the far more dangerous (dps wise) skills.

Obviously you could expand on the idea as well and offer greater specialisations in each, but i fear that would be not welcomed by the DF player base.

But really one unique skill per weapon wouldnt kill them...

[NagiSoi]

I suggested in beta (as did other people along similar lines) the best way of 'balancing' weapons would be to add weapons specific skills.

So lets just say for instance:-
(we'll group 1 and 2 handed versions together for ease of example)

Axes - get a dps skill like 'hack' or something like that which does obscene damage, - has a moderate cooldown timer

Blunts - get some form of knockdown (different to knockback) or some minor form of stun which actually makes the opponents screan go hazy for a time or something, lets call this skill 'brained' - has a moderate cooldown timer

Swords - Get some form of parry/riposte skill which when activated automatically blocks say 30% damage but then attacks back instantly giving little time for the oponent to dodge - has a slow cooldown timer

Polearms - Get some form of skill versus mounts called say 'set for charge' (crap name i know) which essentially roots the player to the spot for say 10 seconds BUT any mounted player attacking them while its active automatically gets dismounted - has slow cooldown timer

Daggers - Get backstab, if you activate it while behind the oponent you do 5 times normal damage - slow cooldown

This would give the weapons more of an actual purpose and a defined use, people who want to fight more tactically would obviously use swords and polaerms those wanting pure dps would put up with the lower overall usefullness of axes and clubs to gain the far more dangerous (dps wise) skills.

Obviously you could expand on the idea as well and offer greater specialisations in each, but i fear that would be not welcomed by the DF player base.

But really one unique skill per weapon wouldnt kill them...


This game needs not stun, mezes and stuff that disables you from fighting, other suggestions are nice :)

[Rodhull]

This game needs not stun, mezes and stuff that disables you from fighting, other suggestions are nice :)

Yeah i did think that one might be a step to far, thats why i ripped off a skill i saw from a chronicles of spellborn vid.

Basically rather than doing some cheesy 'stun' which prevent you moving it actually makes your vision (your screen) go wobbly or hazy and makes it more difficult to target.

[bdjhall]

I think a stun between 0.2 and 0.5 seconds is a happy medium between useless and "I bought this game to play, not to watch my character being ass-raped due to stun locking"

[Squirry]

Shameless bumb because i think i had some nice ideas and the comments so far have been both contructive and interesting.

[Rodhull]

Shameless bumb because i think i had some nice ideas and the comments so far have been both contructive and interesting.

Sadly that usually means it will get largely ignored, as was often the case in beta :(

[GLENN FETTY 1]

The current weapon balance, as we all know, is non-existent. For melee there is only polearm, 2h sword and sword and board. I've seen numerous takes on why this is or how it could be solved but i've yet to be convinced by any of the arguments. So here's my take at a way to make the weapon arsenal more diverse.

It seems that when the devs constructed the weapon types the used 3 different variable to "balance" them:

- Range
- Damage
- Speed

My suggestion is to add a forth, one that is already present in the mechenics, but so far is tied to range:

- Swing arc

The reason polearms and 2h swords are valued so highly is due to their range and swing arc. In a real time aim-based game where lag spikes and sync issues are the deciding factor in a battle more often than not, having the best possible chance to land a blow is vital. And as range and swing arc is connected these tow weapons are THE best choices if you want to maximize your chance to hit the opponent.

It seems obvious that the devs underestimated the importance of this, something they are more than likely also aware of. Damage means little if you don't hit and speed means even less if you only hit with every 5th strike. But it may be that they are too busy creating this game for us that they don't play it much and are thus not as aware as the players of the actual combat mechanics.

I believe i have covered my reason for the suggestion and what i think it could accomplish, but let me illustrate with a few examples based on fictionary numbers:

Let's take two opposites; the dual knives and the polearm. The fictional numbers state that right now they have the following stats.

Polearm
- Damage 15 (base damage on hit)
- Range 5 (In feet)
- Speed 3 (seconds between each hit)

Knives:
- Damage 10
- Range 1
- Speed 1

These numbers are made up but more or less reflects how these two weapons are balanced against each other right now. Notice that on paper (and thus to the devs) these two weapons look almost equally good depending on the playstyle of the player. But in practice this is so far from the truth as can be, as those that have tried know.

Imagine now we add in the 4th variable and the weapons look like this:

Polearm
- Damage 15 (base damage on hit)
- Range 5 (In feet)
- Speed 3 (seconds between each hit)
- Arc 45 (in degrees)

Knives:
- Damage 10
- Range 1
- Speed 1
- Arc 180

These numbers might be a bit extreme but remember it's just for the sake of clarification. The low arc on the polearm is based on it being long and hard to wield and the weapon being naturally better at stabbing and cutting than chopping and slashing (debateable, but bear with me), while the high arc on the knives reflect that they are dual wielded and far easier to make quick thrusts with.

Suddenly we have a situation where the person using knvies will benefit from flanking the polearm user whereas the polearm wielding player would benefit most from keeping a certain distance and facing his opponent to get most hits in and to prevent him from flanking.

I guess that's about as well as i can explain myself right now. Feel free to debate, flame or ignore.

Great idea!

[GLENN FETTY 3]

Great idea!

Awesome idea!

[Ganondorf]

Nice idea i was proposing the same but you are better at exposing it.

There will be no stuns/mezz in the game, and introducing new abilities won't solve the issue of not being able to hit, which is required to be able to use the abilities.

[Lord Zeb]

Swing arc is actually not of much use in crowded combat... unless you fight alone against many. Usually run around fighting with narrow swing style anyway, so Arc is not of much use to me in most instances, and when it is, I find the Sword arc to be quite sufficient. Admit that it might feel a little bit daunting to run in on a Polearm-wielder, but that is not only due to the arc.

Do however believe one should separate the stabby polearms from the slashing ones, making Spears into 1H polearms so you can have mounted Lance battles (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=179868).

Got a full analysis on what I believe is needed to fix the weapon system though, in this thread:
I'm Beggin' Ya - Fix Greatclub and Greataxe (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=3336132#post3336132)

[Skiffs]

needs moar dagger users.

we need more game imo.