Political and Commercial control through local markets

[lkx]

I want to rework the auction/vendors discussions under another point of view.
First, i'm against *global* or even *regional* auction houses, but the lack of player vendors and only the spam chatting as selling metod is not good for me.

So, if the game can't handle player vendors, there is another way: *local* markets, with only a single vendor in that city for all the players, where crafters can put their stuffs on sell, maybe with a little fee.

This can create commercial pole cities, and if the game allow the clan to put some tax on the stuffs on sell, this can be a way to create political control through commerce rather than through wars.

The actual situation instead, is a complete chat-spamming anarchy, without any control over the market.

added(09/05/2009):
In addition, for the political control, a clan that own a good commercial market, can rule setting on their watchtowers who can access to the market and who not.

That's thinking to clancities markets only, however, i'm not against the add of also npc cities markets, but they must have really much higer fees and taxes, to leave more flexibility to the clancity markets

I think that this would even make clancities more alive like an actual city, not only a reserved clans hideouts.

(As a side note, there is also a discussion about regional banks in this thread.)


added(14/05/2009):

An hypothetical cut from an hypothetical patchnote that implement markets:
- City markets have been added:
o Every clancity can set up an NPC vendor where players can put stuff for sell, fixing a price (direct selling, not auction type)
o The stuff on sell is local on the vendor, no global selling. Buyers have to go to the markets to buy stuff
o Putting stuff for sell will require a fee for the vendor, based on selling price.
o Additional taxes can be setted by the clancity owner clan (charged on the final price for the buyer). These will be a percentage of the selling price, and will go in the clan vault if stuff are sold.
o There are three different tax values: For market owner clanmates, for market owner allied and for everyone else.
o If the vendor will die under a siege, all stuff on sell will drop with him and can be looted (however he's a tough guy, and he will try to reach the bank)
o Also NPC cieties will have local markets, but their vendors will have very expensive fees

[skreeDK]

/agreed
/signed


o/

\o

\\o o//

\o/ ...♪♫

[Erroneous]

I agree that having a better way to market goods is one of the most pressing issues currently. At the same time I don't want them to take a shortcut, like a universal auction house or even starter city trading post style vendors.

I think the merchants need to be built in clan city or hamlets. And the clan controls what goods are offered and their prices.

[Lord.Haart]

Great idea.

I also think that Uni AH will be a VERY bad idea. Please don't go 'the way of the pear'.

Hi to Snakes of Panaker :)

[drozzy]

I want to rework the auction/vendors discussions under another point of view.
First, i'm against *global* or even *regional* auction houses, but the lack of player vendors and only the spam chatting as selling metod is not good for me.

So, if the game can't handle player vendors, there is another way: *local* markets, with only a single vendor in that city for all the players, where crafters can put their stuffs on sell, maybe with a little fee.

This can create commercial pole cities, and if the game allow the clan to put some tax on the stuffs on sell, this can be a way to create political control through commerce rather than through wars.

The actual situation instead, is a complete chat-spamming anarchy, without any control over the market.
Agree.

maybe allow people to sell shit in their stash or something

[veracity024]

we need local vendors IN TOWN


allow these vendors to BUY and SELL the stuff

[lkx]

In addition, for the political control, a clan that own a good commercial market, can rule setting on their watchtowers who can access to the market and who not.

[Iracondo]

/agreed !!!!!!!!!! :)

[lkx]

(i hate this single section forum, where any non-flaming thread disapear in few minutes...)

[Kelroth]

I totally agree with this. I hope to see this in game when I'll buy it.

[Mordred]

I've advocated this designed before, and I continue to do so. Please make it happen!

[psychosiszz]

Agreed good thing you said local market instead of local AH, When certain people on this forum see that word they froth at the mouth.

[pablo0713]

Local banks/local AH and/or player vendors. This is what the playerbase wants. It has been stated over and over. Will Aventurine respond?

[d0novan]

Up!

[lkx]

Local banks/local AH and/or player vendors. This is what the playerbase wants. It has been stated over and over. Will Aventurine respond?

Well, yes, i think that also banks should be local for items (but global for gold).

[TariqOne]

It would be cool if there was geographic diversity to resources so you could truly have local markets and import/export. Lumber towns in the south, steel mills up north, etc.
In a game like this a rich economic side would be totally kickass and provide some amazing reasons to PvP and siege.

Assuming sieges get worked out.

[stem589]

Agreed.

I spent 2hr trying to sell shit last night.

This guy will buy, but he's over there..... I get there and now he's bought from someone else.

Someone else wants to buy, but he's back where I was and now wants it for a fraction of the going price.

Maybe it's a lack of demand on some items (steedgrass no longer desirable?) or maybe it's a lack of functional sales mechanics.

One things for sure...... ore (the only resource not heavily littered throughout Cities) is the only thing selling.

[FL-]

The decrease in Steed Grass price is interesting because I haven't noticed any increase in how many times I get it when I go farming. Maybe people are just being extremely careful with their mounts?

[Aki.it]

/agreed

[badula]

i've sugggested this thing throughout all my beta period and i bump this thread! :D


imho local vendors should have this "features":

set price for guild members
set price for alliance members
set price for strangers
set % taxes

this would be AWESOME! :ohno:

[Nofear2plus]

lol

[Heroux]

Keep thinking constructive.
Keep posting.

Thank you.

[NameTry2468]

/sign'ing for justice

[lkx]

Agreed good thing you said local market instead of local AH, When certain people on this forum see that word they froth at the mouth.

I confess, i've done it on purpose :P

[lkx]

Keep thinking constructive.
Keep posting.

Thank you.

thanks

[Aleanath]

well, i dont think its a very pressing issue at the moment what with the problems they got but some time in teh future id like to see a local trading system with a global search and payment method - what i mean is this

you go to a town and put somethign up for sale - the item goes into escrow at teh local place you put up the order.

every player in the game can view everythign for sale on the market and where that item is in teh game world at any market they happen to be at - they can also buy any item from any market - however if they buy an item that isnt in the market they are in they must have to trval to that market to pick up their item

this way you get a local market system and teh nice economy that comes with it, without the hasstle and complication of having to travel to every market just to see whats avaliable

[lkx]

well, i dont think its a very pressing issue at the moment what with the problems they got but some time in teh future id like to see a local trading system with a global search and payment method - what i mean is this

you go to a town and put somethign up for sale - the item goes into escrow at teh local place you put up the order.

every player in the game can view everythign for sale on the market and where that item is in teh game world at any market they happen to be at - they can also buy any item from any market - however if they buy an item that isnt in the market they are in they must have to trval to that market to pick up their item

this way you get a local market system and teh nice economy that comes with it, without the hasstle and complication of having to travel to every market just to see whats avaliable

Well, i think that this will be too similar to a global auction house... don't you?
What if you buy an item in a market of a city where you can't go to retrieve the item (enemy clan)?

[xxpigxx]

well, i dont think its a very pressing issue at the moment what with the problems they got but some time in teh future id like to see a local trading system with a global search and payment method - what i mean is this

you go to a town and put somethign up for sale - the item goes into escrow at teh local place you put up the order.

every player in the game can view everythign for sale on the market and where that item is in teh game world at any market they happen to be at - they can also buy any item from any market - however if they buy an item that isnt in the market they are in they must have to trval to that market to pick up their item

this way you get a local market system and teh nice economy that comes with it, without the hasstle and complication of having to travel to every market just to see whats avaliable


Just like Star Wars Galaxies was.

I like it

[lkx]

Just like Star Wars Galaxies was.

I like it

You're right, i've forgot about SWG.
However i'm still not sure about the results of that system here

[xxpigxx]

You're right, i've forgot about SWG.
However i'm still not sure about the results of that system here

If they took out universal banks, it would work perfectly

[Thyometha]

well, i dont think its a very pressing issue at the moment what with the problems they got but some time in teh future id like to see a local trading system with a global search and payment method - what i mean is this

you go to a town and put somethign up for sale - the item goes into escrow at teh local place you put up the order.

every player in the game can view everythign for sale on the market and where that item is in teh game world at any market they happen to be at - they can also buy any item from any market - however if they buy an item that isnt in the market they are in they must have to trval to that market to pick up their item

this way you get a local market system and teh nice economy that comes with it, without the hasstle and complication of having to travel to every market just to see whats avaliable

This is the SWG system, and it works quite well

[stad]

/agree

[Iracondo]

I think that the old player-vendor like UO style its the best solution!
UP! It's important that this post remain in the first page of this forum :P

[d0novan]

/sign!

[lkx]

Well, yes, i think that also banks should be local for items (but global for gold).

About this, there is another option (i write it here because its also related to commerce):
If they don't want to do local banks, they can at least limit them to regional banks (but i still think that markets need to be local)

[lkx]

About this, there is another option (i write it here because its also related to commerce):
If they don't want to do local banks, they can at least limit them to regional banks (but i still think that markets need to be local)

Thinking about it, i thought a possible reason because they have global banks:
local banks can bring tecnical troubles, like if a city bank is destroyed during a siege, where the items should go? If they are all lost nobody will use clan-city banks, but only npc-cities secure banks.

So i think that regional banks can solve this problem, with a limited number of banking-store istances (regions), but still introduce the need to manually transport stuffs for extra-regional commerce/use (and then with a local market and reginal banks, if you come from another region, yo need to transport stuffs buyied and you cannot put it on the nearby bank).

[Jezrith]

I want to rework the auction/vendors discussions under another point of view.
First, i'm against *global* or even *regional* auction houses, but the lack of player vendors and only the spam chatting as selling metod is not good for me.


I still don't understand why they won't just implement NPC vendors...

[lkx]

So basically, local clancity markets (with custom taxes by owner clan) and local banks (or at least regional) FTW

[exuras]

/Signed

[Mamoulian]

I want to rework the auction/vendors discussions under another point of view.
First, i'm against *global* or even *regional* auction houses, but the lack of player vendors and only the spam chatting as selling metod is not good for me.

So, if the game can't handle player vendors, there is another way: *local* markets, with only a single vendor in that city for all the players, where crafters can put their stuffs on sell, maybe with a little fee.

This can create commercial pole cities, and if the game allow the clan to put some tax on the stuffs on sell, this can be a way to create political control through commerce rather than through wars.

The actual situation instead, is a complete chat-spamming anarchy, without any control over the market.

Agreed, and the best thing would be to make this NPC available to "build" in your city/hamlet aswell...

I bet there would be some jackasses whou would buyout your NPC and then make attack on your city, but i gladly became ganked few times if it makes a lot gold for growing the city/hamlet bigger (just never sell siegehammers and battlespikes and you should be fine :P)

[lkx]

(just never sell siegehammers and battlespikes and you should be fine :P)

lol :D

[losinglife]

I think that the old player-vendor like UO style its the best solution!
UP! It's important that this post remain in the first page of this forum :P

agreed, i was actually hoping it would be in already :idea:

[oller]

i think it sounds awesome...

good thinking ppl

[Jawohl]

In principle I support local bank/market (global gold), and preferably also differentiation in resources around the continent.

This creates a living PVP-economy, but I think the current bindstone_recall system mitigates many of the positive effects created by local economy:
There is still no risk involved in shipping goods from one location to another as long as you can run naked to the merchant you need, buy your stuff and then recall to safety.

What we need is a system that creates the need for transport, which in turn creates possibilities for traderoutes/caravans/blockaderunners and last but not least pirates and robbers ambushing these transports.

[lkx]

So basically, local clancity markets (with custom taxes by owner clan) and local banks (or at least regional) FTW

Thinking about it, regional banks can be a good compromise.
However something should be done about /bindstone_recall.
I'm thinking about wight limits, but there are workarounds about that

[JKhan]

Sounds cool.

[Kez]

This sounds amazing, I personally gave up my ideal of crafting once I got into beta and saw there was no market except for the spamming in race alliance. Also, I'm half and half on the regional banks. IMHO Personal banks should be universal BUT clan vaults should be bank specific.

[stad]

/agree

[Troll St Troll]

/signed

ps. vendors inventory size (or number of vendors) proportional to city size.

[xpiher]

I want to rework the auction/vendors discussions under another point of view.
First, i'm against *global* or even *regional* auction houses, but the lack of player vendors and only the spam chatting as selling metod is not good for me.

So, if the game can't handle player vendors, there is another way: *local* markets, with only a single vendor in that city for all the players, where crafters can put their stuffs on sell, maybe with a little fee.

This can create commercial pole cities, and if the game allow the clan to put some tax on the stuffs on sell, this can be a way to create political control through commerce rather than through wars.

The actual situation instead, is a complete chat-spamming anarchy, without any control over the market.

Already suggested this last week

/signed

[[DJ]psycho]

I strongly disagree with adding a AH.

A vendor that sells limited regs,note very limited amounts, would be OK.
If vendor sells unlimited regs there wont be any interaction between players for trading regs, which can be found in various loot/harvesting.


Allthough no change would be preffered, I love how the system currently works.

[lkx]

psycho;3033413']I strongly disagree with adding a AH.

A vendor that sells limited regs,note very limited amounts, would be OK.
If vendor sells unlimited regs there wont be any interaction between players for trading regs, which can be found in various loot/harvesting.


Allthough no change would be preffered, I love how the system currently works.

What is the relation between an npc reagents vendor and this discussion?
With a market would be players to sell reagents through an npc, not the npc himself

[stad]

edit: wrong thread

[Multisurgeon]

I want to rework the auction/vendors discussions under another point of view.
First, i'm against *global* or even *regional* auction houses, but the lack of player vendors and only the spam chatting as selling metod is not good for me.

So, if the game can't handle player vendors, there is another way: *local* markets, with only a single vendor in that city for all the players, where crafters can put their stuffs on sell, maybe with a little fee.

This can create commercial pole cities, and if the game allow the clan to put some tax on the stuffs on sell, this can be a way to create political control through commerce rather than through wars.

The actual situation instead, is a complete chat-spamming anarchy, without any control over the market.


Go back to WoW, this is so carebear, what i would agree on is a market chat system, but nothing more. The way they have it is good, it allows people to actually rely on one another. Also it makes items have a range of prices you must learn, rather than seeing a list of items with a price next to them. If you are going to have a market system you might as well add portals to one side of the map to the other, cause its very similar.

[lkx]

Go back to WoW, this is so carebear, what i would agree on is a market chat system, but nothing more. The way they have it is good, it allows people to actually rely on one another. Also it makes items have a range of prices you must learn, rather than seeing a list of items with a price next to them. If you are going to have a market system you might as well add portals to one side of the map to the other, cause its very similar.

So, UO was so carebear, right?
Stop throwing words like "Wow" and "carebear" randomly out of your mouth.
Actually, the current system offers no real risk at all (except for exploiters or fools crafters), and it's only a complete anarchy without any real political control over it.

Make local, clan-controlled, markets, and local or regional banks, and stop chat-spamming and trades under your safe carebear global bank watchtower.

[lkx]

Can some mod move this on the shiny new suggestions forum? ^_^
Thank you very much!

[losinglife]

IMHO Personal banks should be universal BUT clan vaults should be bank specific.

totally agree on that one. makes tons of sense.... or cents :sly:

[retrospect]

No this will never work! You see you need more then one vendor or their will be so many people around him in major hubs you will never get close enough to use him :P

I support local markets completely. (with regional banks and universal gold)

[Gurther]

The current system is fine for now. Although if they keep the current system a "Trade" channel is needed. Doesn't have to be universal just alliance.

[Slisk]

I totally agree with the OP's request for localised vendors to facilitate player trade (localised auctionhouses would have the same function I imagine).

Add to that Heterogenous resource allocation (ie. uneven spread of collectable resources) and you have yourself the making of a deep economic game powered by player commerce (as envisioned in the developers early articles).

Fixing trade and resource collection would open up a whole new dimension to the game and broaden its appeal considerably.




Also in my opinion a robust economy with large volumes of player trading would make reequiping a simple task and would negate the need for universal item banking, Thus opening the door further to other economic considerations such as supply routes and means of transport which would further diversify the economic game through its mixed effects on supply and demand between localised economies.

[Traveller_]

Universal banks are simply horrible, in a sandbox. It devoids of any risk the interregional trading. How could devs even CONSIDER to put global banks in a sandbox hardcore games? They have destroyed at birth entire professions (e.g. traders and brigands).

And yes, just a MINIMUM support for player run markets is another sorely needed thing. Local market is perfect.

This game, as innovative as it is, is currently only bidimensional thanks to devs completely ignoring the trading aspects. Even pks, if they have a little of brain, should be wholly in favor of these changes, because fostering commerce means more target and profit for them.

And to those who think that those suggestions are from WOW, they are showing off their ignorance big time. Never even played it. I'll be back to EVE online, the only game out there with a real economy. Based, lo and behold, on local markets and local banks.

[Griras]

Local City markets FTW.... dont ever go global

[Daveraa]

I agree, local banking, local markets, local resources.

And either disable /bindstone_recall or place a very strict weight limit on what you can have in your pack when you use this command. So that large amounts of armour, weapons, resources, etc can't be moved simply by recalling to your bind stone. This would also mean you can't go mob farming for ages and then simply and safely recall home to sell up.

[laserbastu]

I fully agree to this aswell. I loved being a trader in Eve and always loved the thought of that sandbox adventure in a fantasy mmo.
It was almost the ONLY reason I longed for darkfall, but well. At the moment it sucks.
I WANT to be at risk with my merchandise, I want to hire body guards when I move my valuable merchandise from one town to another. Naked running is boring and hurts my gaming experience alot.

Local banks, local "Auction House" or vendor.

[lkx]

I agree, local banking, local markets, local resources.

And either disable /bindstone_recall or place a very strict weight limit on what you can have in your pack when you use this command. So that large amounts of armour, weapons, resources, etc can't be moved simply by recalling to your bind stone. This would also mean you can't go mob farming for ages and then simply and safely recall home to sell up.

Even with zone banks would be a little better than now, at least we will have trade routes fron the last bank of a zone to the first bank of the next

[Iracondo]

Even with zone banks would be a little better than now, at least we will have trade routes fron the last bank of a zone to the first bank of the next

Yes, but it's important that it has to be LOCAL! Or regional at max!

[Daveraa]

Even with zone banks would be a little better than now, at least we will have trade routes fron the last bank of a zone to the first bank of the next

I dissagree, I think this is like fixing a flat tyre by attaching a wooden wheel. Almost all of the problems of the global system remain in zone based banking. Whats more it doesn't solve any problems that can't be solved better by local banking with a few tweaks.

[lkx]

I dissagree, I think this is like fixing a flat tyre by attaching a wooden wheel. Almost all of the problems of the global system remain in zone based banking. Whats more it doesn't solve any problems that can't be solved better by local banking with a few tweaks.

I know, its not perfect, but i don't think that they wil get into the trouble of handling a local bank system

[Polsni2005]

I agree

[DarkonDraco]

I want to rework the auction/vendors discussions under another point of view.
First, i'm against *global* or even *regional* auction houses, but the lack of player vendors and only the spam chatting as selling metod is not good for me.

So, if the game can't handle player vendors, there is another way: *local* markets, with only a single vendor in that city for all the players, where crafters can put their stuffs on sell, maybe with a little fee.

This can create commercial pole cities, and if the game allow the clan to put some tax on the stuffs on sell, this can be a way to create political control through commerce rather than through wars.

The actual situation instead, is a complete chat-spamming anarchy, without any control over the market.

I agree to a point...

I agree that there should be a big influence with clans running markets in their cities and all, WITH a tax or small free for using it as it would be a great way to bring in money for the guild and stimulate the in-game economy. However, there is a drawback...it would be 1 sided. Only those people in a decently sized clan would benefit leaving everyone else screwed and still spamming the chat channels. Since clan cities are all over the place, and not everyone would have the goods you wanted, traveling from city to city to find what you needed would be a pain in the ass and damn near impossible. Nobody is going to want to spend 3 or 4 hours just walking from where they are to a clan city just to CHECK to see if something is there. Chances are you'll get rolled over by a group of zerg rushers before you even get there if you traveled alone.

So, if they implemented markets/traders in JUST clan cities and independent to each city they would have to implement one of two things:
1) Bazarr type system like Star Wars Galaxies, where you could search for something, it would tell you where it was and you would still have to travel to its location.
2) A better travel system so if you were trying to get to the eastern side of the continent to the western side just to buy supplies from a clan city, you wouldn't have to spend all damn day walking across the continent lol. And I am not talking about travel systems to go EVERYWHERE so don't start bashing me with WoW insults and Carebear bullshit...I'm talking about over extreme distances.
(now i really don't want a travel system, I love the fact that you actually have to take a long trek to get to different parts of the continent, I'm just saying it would be needed if you put markets in clan cities only because not every clan city is going to have the same thing.

But even with a Bazar type system, it still would be extremely difficult for people to go long distances to get what they need, especially if its someone who didn't have a mount. So you would have to have something closer for them, maybe in an NPC capital city or possibly a neutral place close by. If you cater to only the big guys in the game and leave the little guys to drown, its going to make for an unbalanced system and lower subs. I know a lot of people who are waiting for a trading system before they join because they want to craft more than fight and the whole part about a game that is supposed to be SO centered around player interaction, player crafting and a player economy...well you cant really have a player economy without some sort of a trader system.

Keep in mind if it was not universal, and you could only buy goods that were physically put on that vendor/market npc at that location, then they could only buy goods from players in that vicinity. Most being of the same skill level, newness to the game ect and only have access to the resources in that area. So if it was someone looking for a massive amount of stuff or a harder to get resource, he's most likely not going to find it there and still have to travel to a clan city. So this promotes player growth and stimulates the game economy on all levels, not just the big guys who have already built a decent empire and gives everyone equally a fighting chance.

But i thoroughly agree that a universal trader system similar to WoW's auction house is a BAD IDEA, it will just force everyone to throw something up an an outrageous price and everyone will just undercut them, it doesn't work. Having certain NPCs or Vendors where you have to be in that vicinity to sell or buy, it helps keep competitive pricing up and doesn't allow for an underbid fest. Someone may very easily purchase something at a higher cost and be ok with it, just because it's closer to them.

I just don't think it should be limited to clan cities, however I think any outside of a Clan city should cost more to sell/but on, higher tax ect.

That's just my 2 cents :)
And before you people start flaming me and starting with those lame ass carebear comments, stop and think, its a SUGGESTION FORUM its what it's for, if you don't like that GTFO.

-Darkon-

[JTMAegis]

I want to rework the auction/vendors discussions under another point of view.
First, i'm against *global* or even *regional* auction houses, but the lack of player vendors and only the spam chatting as selling metod is not good for me.

So, if the game can't handle player vendors, there is another way: *local* markets, with only a single vendor in that city for all the players, where crafters can put their stuffs on sell, maybe with a little fee.

This can create commercial pole cities, and if the game allow the clan to put some tax on the stuffs on sell, this can be a way to create political control through commerce rather than through wars.

The actual situation instead, is a complete chat-spamming anarchy, without any control over the market.


Awesome call! +1.

/agreed
/signed

[lkx]

[...]

Well, fair points, i think that a system like swg would be good too

[Daniel Daly911]

OR you can just use the wood and ore to make stuff :P thats always up

[lkx]

OR you can just use the wood and ore to make stuff :P thats always up

err... i think that i haven't understood your point...

[Virtra]

The OP's suggestion would be a vast improvement to the economy of DF. It's not the ideal solution, but its a simple clean fix to many problems.

I have to agree with DarkonDraco in that there should be a search function that allows you to see who is selling what and where, though I completely disagree with the notion that there needs to be some sort of faster travel to facilitate trade.

[griM']

Yeh, makes sense.

Also, we have a free block under the quit button that we can add vendors too. =D

[foxtroll]

I fully agree to this aswell. I loved being a trader in Eve and always loved the thought of that sandbox adventure in a fantasy mmo.
It was almost the ONLY reason I longed for darkfall, but well. At the moment it sucks.
I WANT to be at risk with my merchandise, I want to hire body guards when I move my valuable merchandise from one town to another. Naked running is boring and hurts my gaming experience alot.

here is real interest of having only local market and bank. Trading, moving between town become an adventure. TRader, crafter, warrior, small mercenarie clan could find opportunities.

Being local allow every player to make his name somewhere and be trusted or feared. I want too something like that.

The only problem to implement this things is probably the surge on graphic cards. If many vendors or shop building must be dynamically created by player then dev have to ensure that the whole will be acceptable by much of the computers.

So two solution.

The light one :
In each settlement small fixed building or NPC allow the opening of an interface like the 'journal'
The betteer one :
As there is many place in existing settlement, dev allow the player to buy a maximized number of npc in market or building shop. Those buildings will need gold to be bought and a month fees to keep them, reserving building to only active players or small clan.


I like to travell the world and see how settlements grow or fall after attacks or désaffection by player. A real player driven economy.

That will allow new player or small guild to be able to own a structure in a world fully controled by big clans and alliance. That will force those clan to open their settlement to develop trade routes and earn taxes ...

perhaps am i dreaming but this is the game i hope to see in the future.

[Dalusia]

trading could be amazing with small changes like this!

BUMP

[Kukafuchi]

/signed ";.;"

[lkx]

updated the main post

[lkx]

I like to add here some suggestion posted by another forumfaller in another thread, i think that them are interesting:


I would, however, support a localized NPC market.

Make it work this way:
* Markets are a feature of player cities. The Clan or Alliance holding the city gets a tax on all transactions, to be set to their own satisfaction.

* Markets would have a certain number of NPCs. They could be arranged by the type of item sold, the level of the item, or some special NPCs for only Clan/Alliance members owning the market (which are tax reduced or exempt).

* When you list an item for sale, you pay the sales commission up front. This is not refundable. This could be the source of the tax revenues.

* You can only have a certain number of items for sale at any time. If we ever get a faction revamp (because faction is pretty primitive right now) that might be a good thing to tie into it.

* When the item sells, the vendor retains the gold until you come to pick it up.

* You can place buy requests on the vendors as well. Do do so, you fill out a "form" with what you're wanting to buy in what quantities, and submit that along with the gold plus service fee/tax up front. If somebody sells the item to fill the order, the items are held at the vendor until you come to pick them up.

* In any case during a city siege, if the Market is destroyed, the vendors become mobile NPCs, who will run away and keep running forever or until killed. They will have on them, all of the gold and items that they were holding when the Market was destroyed.

* Should the Market be rebuilt while the vendor is still running around (Maybe he found a good place to hide or got lost where nobody found him), he will try to return and take up his place. Until he does, that vendor space will stand empty. If he was killed, then a new one will respawn as normal. If he makes it back, he will still have all of his goods and gold.

[Solvito]

signed..

hope aventurine keeps listening to their player base...we need a trading system asap...(ive stopped selling wares due to being harder to sell rather than gather.)
and also, something must be done about universal banking....its like meh...
they should also think about marking wilderness banks, and when someone goes PK, his stuff is transferred to the closest wilderness bank)...
if things like these are introduced this game will be "teh best"

[Lorgan42]

(tagscribe)

[Yakamoz]

It could be nice if such auction houses would be possible to build only in clan cities and clans could take a fee ( 10 % for example ) for transactions going.

[Reynolds Burt]

signed.

[Lord Zeb]

Seems like we have wanted Local Vendors for quite some time, as this thread is quite an old one. ;)

Agree with it though as well. To make people with financial power not be able to abuse the system too much, there need to be costs related to taking advantage of opportunities that are not only monetary. That is: risk in transport, time to transport, costs to transactions. Local Banking and Local Vendors would be great in balancing this.

Regarding Local Banking, I would like that as well, if implemented well. We still have the Clan Banks that can dislodge the system if it is kept, so they would need to be local as well, and put in a specific city. And enable having several Clan banks if the clan hold several cities or hamlets. A balanced view would probably to have Racial Area Banks instead of Global banks, having the banks being locally tied to a Banking network (7 for central island of Agon, racial areas+center, 4 for the subcontinents) where the Clan bank is available in only one of these networks. Which will be the one where the Clan city of Hamlet lies in, if they have one. Or one of them, if the clan holds several in several areas. Which might be problematic though...

But that is a balance question and enhancement of the game, not the crucial question of making what already exist work. Regarding solving the Trade problem, the best solution to the problem I see is having local Vendor functions:

NPC Merchants, for small transactions:
NPC Merchant who stands in his shop, using the NPCs that already exist in NPC cities, where you put in what you want to sell and what price you want for it. And such Merchant stalls selling not only player merchandice but also common goods, being able to be built in Clan cities as well (as I have seen them be already). Only one such Merchant NPC per town.


Then people come in and buy the number of objects at the specified price as they wish, if they can afford them. Function to sort through the offers according to price, type and specific merchandice should be offered, as the offers might get pretty numerous. (For roleplaying explanation: you simply ask the Merchant what he got at what prices, instead of just browsing the shelves yourself.)


And then you go get your money at the Merchant, who takes 10-25% sale fee. The Merchant takes a personal fee (Gold sink) for a basic level, but Clan cities may tax the Merchant NPC selling service even further. You get to know how much it will cost when you accept the sell. Sale fee is taken out from the revenues, and unsold items are not charged and can be picked out at any time.


Order will stay in the NPC shop until bought, or until a certain time period lapses. (1 month?) After that it get put into storage and the one putting it in may come get it at any time. Together with any owed revenues.

Markets with own Vendors to sell lot of stuff:

You go to the Market Place, where the Market Boss is marked out on the map as an NPC you might want to talk to (maybe even with a few Quests for you to do). You talk to the Market Boss and is offered your choice of different Vendor NPCs that he may hire out to you. Each Market has it's own Level, where Clan cities may upgrade their Market to get more hirable Vendors. Each Vendor NPC is paid for by the hour.


Price of hiring Vendor should vary between cities, where the Starter cities should be cheap to stand in but have few places, and the capitals a bit more expensive, but have plenty of vendor space, as well be central locations. And of course the Chaos cities should have their prices. Clan cities should set their own price, with a basic level (Gold sink) that can be added to with Taxes, that may even vary between alliance status, forbidding neutral or allied to set up shop there even by punitive taxing if one wish to. (As payment is made in advance, taxing will not take effect until one wish to hire a new Vendor.) NPC Vendors do NOT take out a percentage of your income in fees, you just pay for their time.


When buying at a NPC Vendor, you go to the market, click the Vendor and check what he has, and buy it if you like the cost. You can there also see what the Vendor is set to be willing to buy for the Crafter, as well as put in Orders/leave Messages to the Crafter so he is contactable even if not on-line.


Vendor employer's Name, Race, Clan and Alignment should be available from the NPC Vendor, so one can favorize or boycott traders as you please.


Crafter hiring the NPC Vendor may go and pick up revenues, load up new inventory, change prices, remove inventory and set new buy orders at any time while the NPC Vendor stays put. Any messages may also be read then. When the time you paid for is over, the NPC Vendor disappears, and any revenues and goods you have owed may be picked up at the Market Boss, together with any messages.


And anyone that do NOT wish to pay gold to use the selling services, is free to use his time instead, spamming the Trade channel, or standing on the Market beside the NPC Vendors shouting out his own wares.

There will this way be even more opportunities to make money being a Merchant, as trade in general will have been enabled.

[lkx]

[...]

Good points!

[Dave_sp!]

/signed


its the most practical solution really

[lkx]

An hypothetical cut from an hypothetical patchnote that implements markets:

- City markets have been added:
o Every clancity can set up an NPC vendor where players can put stuff for sell, fixing a price (direct selling, not auction type)
o The stuff on sell is local on the vendor, no global selling. Buyers have to go to the markets to buy stuff
o Putting stuff for sell will require a fee for the vendor, based on selling price.
o Additional taxes can be setted by the clancity owner clan (charged on the final price for the buyer). These will be a percentage of the selling price, and will go in the clan vault if stuff are sold.
o There are three different tax values: For market owner clanmates, for market owner allied and for everyone else.
o If the vendor will die under a siege, all stuff on sell will drop with him and can be looted (however he's a tough guy, and he will try to reach the bank)
o Also NPC cieties will have local markets, but their vendors will have very expensive fees

[Tecknowolf]

signed

[Mudbleach]

great idea

[Earthrider]

I like the idea of "local markets" but there should be a sort of "supply/demand" mechanic. This is so that if the market if already loaded with one item you don't get nearly as much for selling it there and if there is an utter lack of another item that sells a lot you get a substancial bonus (in cash) for selling it.

Now consider the clever merchants who would roam around looking for the best price to sell their wares getting rich in the process, now for you pvp'ers image being able to hunt down and kill these folks! = win for everyone.

I've seen a similar system work wonders in about two other games, one of them was ruined by the introduction of a global AH :(.

What do yall think?
Thanks
Earthrider

[Bokan]

signed

[conesq]

signed

[Lictor]

/signed

[Laegoll]

I think the best way I have seen player economy run locally was in Neocron beta where people would stand on certain spots and streetcorners and would advertise in local chat, "Selling needlegun mods infront of bio-upgrades shop" for example.
They would many times have the same spots and you would come back to that guy for more of the same or something he told you about in private chat during your transactions.

This would work well in Darkfall too(with local banks ofc), and we would see this kind of thing happening in clan cities as well as red cities, which would bring the political control into play.

Just think what Ymirs Tear would be like, if there were actual merchants infront of the prop market shacks, selling their stuff.

Maybe someday... :'/

[Earthrider]

I saw something very similar in "voyage century", the only problem is when you had your "market stall" set up the only thing you can do is sit there and wait.

This led to a lot of ppl setting up stalls and AFK'ing for a long time to sell their stuff, problem is that in this game that wouldn't fly because of gankers...

Anyway, I don't much like having to "man" a stall. I would rather just sell to an NPC that resold to others (with complex price mechanics), or tried to build up a list of ppl that I know will buy with minimal BS.

The stall idea works in other games, but not everyone wants selling items to turn into a "second job"; if you know what I mean.

[Laegoll]

I saw something very similar in "voyage century", the only problem is when you had your "market stall" set up the only thing you can do is sit there and wait.

This led to a lot of ppl setting up stalls and AFK'ing for a long time to sell their stuff, problem is that in this game that wouldn't fly because of gankers...

Anyway, I don't much like having to "man" a stall. I would rather just sell to an NPC that resold to others (with complex price mechanics), or tried to build up a list of ppl that I know will buy with minimal BS.

The stall idea works in other games, but not everyone wants selling items to turn into a "second job"; if you know what I mean.

No, the stalls can be just props. I don't care if you stand on an elevator selling your stuff, the main idea is that you can be found there if you are currently selling.
Some people like to sell and barter stuff, let them do it. If Local Banks were to be implemented it would automatically give you the chance to get your money from your goods because of constant demand, and if you don't want to sell them give them to a guy who wants to do it. All kinds of automated markets that would make inventories of what people are selling will take away the profits and drive the prices to stagnate.

[Maugrim Ulf]

/signed

[Bokan]

signed

[lkx]

I think the best way I have seen player economy run locally was in Neocron beta where people would stand on certain spots and streetcorners and would advertise in local chat, "Selling needlegun mods infront of bio-upgrades shop" for example.
They would many times have the same spots and you would come back to that guy for more of the same or something he told you about in private chat during your transactions.


I don't like that much. I hate chat spamming, and, unless a consistent number of players would stay the whole time there, it don't spread enough the knowledge of a commercial pole, and in addition this is still a spamming anarchy, without any interest by clans to allow this in their cities, and without any control over the economy.

In addition this would overcrowd the bank spot

[KinePs3]

I agree.

o/

Pls Aventurine, work on it

o/

[iSay]

Awesome idea, love the part where the NPC's can be looted - but would clan's bother to use it? If they do, I'm sure if they see a siege pop up they'd buy the stuff back and bank it.

Clan players should be able to create their own vendors in player houses (think SWG), with descriptions of what they're selling. Warring clans should be able to destroy them and loot them, but obivously make it a challenging task with plenty of notice for the clan to be able to defend it (not as hard as taking a city).

Some kind of player market is essential in this game, it will add that much needed depth - imagine sites like tradefall.net allowing players to give their location of their vendors, people see a bargain and will be willing to travel, while others who see that same bargain will be stalking that vendor.

There will be ambushes, players coming with big numbers to ensure they don't get ambushed, mini-siege's at the vendors, etc... it will give this game so much life.

[Tecknowolf]

If you make vendors lootable, then that will be the farming method of choice. Then people wont use vendors and it will be a pointless waste.

Look at the game dynamics now, people don't raise cities, they raid the players and afk farmers, bank it in the cities vault, then move on. Why spend time and money on something as unprofitable as to siege a city unless you need to.

Same for vendors, just add it to the General Merchant, its already a feature of cities, just add another tab for consignments by players. No chat spamming, no added coding for npc vendors or stalls, just something that you would think should be easily able to be added. If you must, you could add another tab for those dam auction houses. Though, I see them as lag points and wouldn't want one in my city.

[Humakki]

good post!

[Earthrider]

Look at the game dynamics now, people don't raise cities, they raid the players and afk farmers, bank it in the cities vault, then move on. Why spend time and money on something as unprofitable as to siege a city unless you need to.

Same for vendors, just add it to the General Merchant, its already a feature of cities, just add another tab for consignments by players. No chat spamming, no added coding for npc vendors or stalls, just something that you would think should be easily able to be added. If you must, you could add another tab for those dam auction houses. Though, I see them as lag points and wouldn't want one in my city.[/QUOTE]

I still think supply/demand mechanics should be added in to ensure that flooding the general merchant yields lower and lower profits, and selling items they don't have a lot of comes with the reward of better profits. (and vice versa with buying, i.e. buying something there is a lot of is cheap while something that's rare/low in stock is more expensive).

That way there would be some skill and profit to be had, it might also encourage people to travel between towns looking for good prices/deals and that's exactly what this game needs. I also don't think it would be too terribly hard to implement, tons of game use similar features. (fable 1 & 2, pre-GE runescape, voyage century, railroad tycoon series, etc etc.)

[Phyrexan]

/agreed
/signed

[nigedo]

Well, yes, i think that also banks should be local for items (but global for gold).
This is so obviously what the game needs. I won't be subbing for long if this depth doesn't get added.

[lkx]

This is so obviously what the game needs. I won't be subbing for long if this depth doesn't get added.

Despite i would like local banks, i've changed my mind a little bit about them.
I understand some serious problems to handle them.
So i switched to the option of Regional/Zonal banks.
If they would be done right, they can have very similar effects of local banks, and they should be easier to handle.

[Lord Zeb]

Yes, problem with truly Local banks would be that people would run around and smash Clan banks just to see what would fall out of them if they were "lootable"... or just for the hell of it if the contents would be lost.

Also believe that Zone Banks could work, and would be something to further trade in a better way, as people would need to put an effort in it. At least after Local Vendors would have been implemented as well, as then people would use them to buy new gear with the Global gold when they lost their own, when they find that they do not have enough stuff in the foreign bank they are near.

[KuraM]

i like the idea to setup 1 npc where you can give your items to sell at a fixed (set) price. auction houses would seem too.... how do you say... WoW'ish to me.

as for banks, i propose that all clan alliance banks are linked for personal banks, but to access your clan vault you must be in your city/hamlet (and also make them linked if you own multiple hamlets/cities)

and then make npc towns with guard towers all linked for personal banks only, and unaccessible for clan vaults. chaos cities should be 100% isolated since most of them are controlled by clans without assets anyhow (and have the clan vault only accessible from a chaos city if the clan doesnt have an asset). to avoid really sticky issues, if said clan gains control of a hamlet, punt all their clan vault items to the city they take.

that way you can still easily access your stuff out of your base of operations, or any allied facilities, and would encourage a bit of traveling for crossfaction or clan trading.

only problem would be for small pvpgroups, who need to bank stuff in enemy territory... it would force them to recall, which would really damage said type of players.

[Slisk]

I've given up hope for darkfall as a game that stimulates beyond PvP. I don't see a day when thay achieve a market like EvE. There is no mention and no reason to believe that the devs have ANY interest in making the economic game interesting. Clearly they didn't think of it as a priority and now we are left with fucking spam chatting to sell our shit when we should just be able to drop it at a vendor set our asking price and move on to greener pastures, and likewise visit said vendor and view the wares rather than spam chatting for goods to buy.

Whole fucking market system is broken and will never be fixed. I used to be a fanboi but this fundamental feature has ended my love affair with darkfall. Don't play it now because of it. I could almost forgive the bad fucking combat mechanics and broken skill system that encourages everyone to be a hybrid if we had a decent market.

Ahhhhhhh I'm letting it go now.... letting it all out.... farewell Darkfall... I retire to off-topic for good.

[Earthrider]

AV's last news update mentioned that they have heard the complaints on the economy and are getting ready to do something about it; however the details are..............vauge.

Anyway, who knows how they will tweak the economy, heres to hoping for the best, right?

[nigedo]

AV's last news update mentioned that they have heard the complaints on the economy and are getting ready to do something about it; however the details are..............vauge.

Anyway, who knows how they will tweak the economy, heres to hoping for the best, right?
Problem is the economy needs far more than tweaking.

As it stands the tools and mechanics for a decent economic-pvp game are utterly non-existent.

I strongly doubt that DFO have the developer resources to add the missing features in a reasonable amount of time.

[neon sheild]

i agree

[Earthrider]

Well I figure as long as we keep this thread rolling and keep suggesting reasonable changes to the economy system for the better, then eventually they will start working towards fixing/modifiying it.

But realistically we can only hope for slow, gradual change.

Until then, keep posting on one or two economic change posts you agree with. (try not to spread out posts though, or it doesn't look like support is given for any particular ideas).

[nigedo]

Well I figure as long as we keep this thread rolling and keep suggesting reasonable changes to the economy system for the better, then eventually they will start working towards fixing/modifiying it.

But realistically we can only hope for slow, gradual change.

Until then, keep posting on one or two economic change posts you agree with. (try not to spread out posts though, or it doesn't look like support is given for any particular ideas).
I recognise that you, like me, are very eager to see a fantasy MMORPG in the mold of Eve. Yeah, keep pushing and they'll get it sooner or later. :)

[foxtroll]

Yes AV said they will do something for economy.

But the problem i see is the fact that all player can gather and craft. And it need times. So its difficult to create a real market.

To allow gatherer, crafter and buyer we need a hard cap first.

With hard cap gatherer will be able for example to gather really faster than other and be able to sell at lesser cost.

This will allow crafter to buy and make goods at normal cost with a small gain at least.

Then all consumer will be interested to buy stuff from crafter instead of looting on mobs.


This is three aspect that must be enforced. But now we are all gatherer, crafter and customer .... where is the market ?

So the prerequisite to a real market is by limitating gathering and crafting capacity of each player to limit the two first population.

Then the second prerequisite will be to upgrade gathering times for real gatherer, allow chain production for crafter

The last prerequisite is to make economy local buy creating local market where goods can be exchanged.

With those three modification to the system we should see :

- gathering guilds or party that will exploit regional ressources and mobs loot with the help of military man.

- crafter that will transform raw materials into goods and sell at local market

- merchant that will buy and transport goods to other town or hamlet to sell at local market. They will be protected buy mercenary that will be paid for ...

- Sea road will probably develop a lot ( probably need another modification so that player swim at a really slower speed) as this form of transport will be be really more secure than land.


All these activity will develop safe zone and dangerous zone. This will allow really more PVP interest to steal goods or secure trade.


A last modification : Reduce mouvement capacity of player ! don"t allow armored player to swim more than few meters, make mountains, swamp more draining in stamina !

[foxtroll]

a last things !
few days ago i make a great mistake. I take 600 log of wood on me to transform them. I was in my player city and thought to be secure. I slowly make my way to the workbench from the bank and start working on them
I was then attacked, killed and looted. I reapper less than one minute after and was confident to find my wood on my corpse but there was nothing

Attackers where able to take 600 log and all of my stuff in less than a few second and flee as rabbits !

If that sort of things isn't stopped i recognize that local market will be a dead ends !

I would appreciate to limit carrying capacity of players. So that armored ones could transport just a few materials for example.


And to allow a more secure travel between town it seems that wagons is a good solution. A wagon can be stolen but looted slowly out of local market for example. To really steal a wagon the best mean should be to take it to a local market

[Earthrider]

See the caravan and speed bounus post for information on the idea of caravan vehicles/wagons. Its on this suggestions page, and its also a good idea by the way.

[Phoboss]

/signed

[lkx]

Well I figure as long as we keep this thread rolling and keep suggesting reasonable changes to the economy system for the better, then eventually they will start working towards fixing/modifiying it.

But realistically we can only hope for slow, gradual change.

Until then, keep posting on one or two economic change posts you agree with. (try not to spread out posts though, or it doesn't look like support is given for any particular ideas).

I hope so

[lkx]

See the caravan and speed bounus post for information on the idea of caravan vehicles/wagons. Its on this suggestions page, and its also a good idea by the way.

Yes, would be nice

[Earthrider]

Did they do anything to the game economy in the last patch? I can't tell cause the forums are a sea of "I can't jump!" complaints right now.

I'm hoping if and when they do patch the game economy they take one or two suggestions on these boards.

[vanyok]

I would love to see this implemented

[Banok]

I love it but... I dont think the market NPC should hold all the items. when selling you still hold your own items, you just have to stay within city/market area. all the npc does that way is make an trade interface with everyone, so no more spam. but you cant put stuff up for sale and then run off.

[Earthrider]

I disagree, the NPC holding your items makes it much easier to trade and makes it so that people who would rather be gathering/crafting can spend more time on that rather than wait for their item to come up for sale.

For those who would rather trade, I suggested some time ago that the items price be determined via supply/demand (i.e. low supply/high price-----high supply/low price) that way profit savvy merchants could travel from place to place searching for the best prices.

Really any improvement over the current system is good, but adding more layers of depth will do wonders to make non-combat folks gameplay more enjoyable.

(by the way please refer to the "caravans" post for another great idea of trading/non combat vehicles :).

[lkx]

I love it but... I dont think the market NPC should hold all the items. when selling you still hold your own items, you just have to stay within city/market area. all the npc does that way is make an trade interface with everyone, so no more spam. but you cant put stuff up for sale and then run off.

Personally i don't like to stay in a place afk waiting someone interested to my stuff, so, i don't like that way.
In addition buyers need to know that there is a nice chance to find what they need in a know market, without hoping that someone with the stuff that they need are online in the market at the same timeframe as them.

[flasher702]

The OP is right about everything (especially about how much spam-fest as the only real commerce options sucks) except that the system would have to be global (or nearly so). Everything else discussed could still be implemented with a global marketplace. Taxes, tariffs, deciding who you sell to and who you blacklist, etc. You notice how all these things exist in the real world even though we have an internet that makes all of our major markets global? Grab a clue people: this would be trivial to implement in a controlled game environment.

It could even potentially also require local pickup of items with ease (or delivery with enough coding... but couriers would make the game pretty cool).

If the AH system can't reach significantly more people with significantly less effort than /trade than it can't replace /trade. That basically means it needs to reach everyone on the server (there is not EVE Online scale population to support local markets. Even some WoW servers suffer from underpopulation gimping their economy.).

I'd also like to request that everyone who hasn't studied economics, hasn't traded stocks, hasn't bought and sold things online, and lacks basic familiarity with how transactional databases work voluntarily remove themselves from the conversation because they don't know what they are talking about.

[Earthrider]

No, I disagree

Global AH's simply make things too easy. Basically you have a forum that provides no interaction whatsoever and forces you to compete with gold/item farmers who work 24/7 and offer their stuff at rock bottom prices. In that environment people quickly find that their skills are near worthless and only a select few contribute while the rest stop crafting.

If you hate gathering/crafting then ya global AH's are for you (they make things 10x easier for buyers). However, it will kill the experience for anyone that actually enjoys buying/selling because there is no interaction and everything is made over simplistic.

To counter your arguement, convience isn't everything. Some people actually like to shop around, set up supply connections, and haggle over price; and all of that would be instantly killed if a global AH is implemented (I've seen it before in other large games, RS being one of them).

To put it bluntly, NO GLOBAL AH's PLEASE!!!

[HomeSqueeze]

NOOOOOOOOO, NOT AH's WHYYYYYYY:eek::bang:

[flasher702]

No, I disagree

Global AH's simply make things too easy. Basically you have a forum that provides no interaction whatsoever and forces you to compete with gold/item farmers who work 24/7 and offer their stuff at rock bottom prices. In that environment people quickly find that their skills are near worthless and only a select few contribute while the rest stop crafting.

Isn't that the *current* state of affairs?


If you hate gathering/crafting then ya global AH's are for you (they make things 10x easier for buyers). However, it will kill the experience for anyone that actually enjoys buying/selling because there is no interaction and everything is made over simplistic.

What if you actually *do* like crafting (I do) but don't like spending hours gathering to do it? And what if you like crafting and/or gathering and want to be able to actually SELL your stuff without spending hours spamming (not gathering, not crafting, not actually playing the game at all. Just spamming. This is what I had to do to level Enchanting in WoW since you couldn't sell it on the AH. It sucked.)?


To counter your arguement, convience isn't everything. Some people actually like to shop around, set up supply connections, and haggle over price; and all of that would be instantly killed if a global AH is implemented (I've seen it before in other large games, RS being one of them).

And I've seen it not happen in games with AH systems (WoW and Eve)... and if the AH system is so much better than other options that it *kills* other kinds of commercial interaction that should be a really big hint to you that there is something wrong that isn't the fault of the AH.

If you think that sitting around spamming a trade channel is a cool game... I don't think a "hardcore", "skill-based" MMO is for you. Maybe go play Second Life or something? If you think making a task more tedious and/or more time consuming and/or requiring more direct cooperation from other people is the only way to make it have a proper level of difficulty you need to go play WoW. If you're being beaten on the open market by asian farmers it's because you SUCK (and most people who complain about them actually aren't being beaten by them they just suck at economics in general and are channeling xenophobia to place the blame on someone else).

I certainly appreciate that requiring goods to be physically shuttled to far-flung ends of the world, enabling both the creation of large-scale piracy (awesome) and potentially large rewards for braving the risks to move the goods would make this game have something that most other games lack. Such things will never exist unless traders can be sure they can quickly and easily SELL their goods once they get to their destination. You need an efficient, global market to be able to do that with a limited population.

Have any of you ever played EVE Online??? They have all these things that people keep saying you want and that an AH would destroy *and* they have a global search engine for finding things that are for sale (you can purchase them from across the galaxy but then you have to go pick them up yourself). Do any of you engage in economics in like the REAL WORLD? It has all these things and global search engines too ;)

[Earthrider]

I was saying that AH's kill commerce from a game I played which introduced an AH and then suddenly no one was willing to trade anymore; the only way to trade was through the AH, which was being spammed by everyone which lowered prices down almost 5 fold.

A better system I've seen is that people buy and sell their items from Local market NPC's which have prices based on supply/demand, That is, if there was a large amount of items prices went down making it easy for buyers to stock up; likewise if there were almost no items then the price was much higher to encourage sellers to offload it there. I think that the system I am proposing is superior.

I remember with the system I am describing me and my friends would buy items where they were dirt cheap then shuttle them over to areas where they were rare and sell them back for 3-5x as much! That used to be awesome, I knew entire groups of people that only bought and sold items for profits (merchant guilds).

*lastly, you do not need to insult my ability as a gamer by saying I couldn't keep up with farmers (I've played about 5 MMO's now for a combined period of almost 2 1/2 years) or my knowledge of economics (3 years in business college so far); I was merely trying to objectionally counter an idea I saw ruin another games economy, insulting me won't help your arguement.

*also if you had read my previous posts you would know im not for having to spam trade offers, I have posted numerous times on numberous posts that players should be able to buy/sell from a Local NPC vendor (with supply/demand mechanic)

[Lord Zeb]

Well, Earthrider, as an Economics teacher you might appreciate my view then: This system sucks. (Yes, I am a university teacher in Business Economics, thank you.)

The Marketing aspects are unsupported and there is too high risk levels for regular trade to develop easily.

For people to be able to buy, one can look at the very basic Marketing Mix theorys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing_mix) 4Ps : Product, Price, Place, Promotion.

Product: People need to know the quality and if they do not know enough, they are not willing to pay as much as they otherwise would, or simply do not want to buy it as they do not know whether it is the merchandise they want.


Price: One is willing to pay for everything when buying something. Including transport, safety of transfer, and closeness of availability. Some are more riskwilling and travel more, and wishes to pay less for such, which are good persons to be Merchants, and if they are made to take risks, are worth the difference between prices at different markets.


Place: Knowing where things may be bougth (such as from NPC Merchants or Marketplaces where NPC Vendors are put up) is quite important. Availability and safety measures in transfers are factors that make people even decide whether to buy from you or not.


Promotion: People need to know where one can buy what, at what price, and at what product quality. The Trade channel may be such a place to transfer information, but it is inadequate for being a the only trade venue. And is limiting in that it is so global, so people looking for small amounts such as personal shopping for a single sword or such, do not even bother. Trade Boards in-game should be a good way to implement a good place for advertisements of goods wanted or sold.


And then according to Network theory (here relating to the area where social network theory applied on trade relations): People need to be able to trust others to make deals, and prefer doing deals with people they already done deals with if the deal went good, as trust is built up over time. Especially when dealing with recular business and large amount of products, as we also can see here in DarkFall.

The trust issue is also the reason why War zones are such lucrative businesses: People don't dare to come there to do business, so only great risk-takers come in, often with armed guards at their sides, to do business and reap great profits. Simply said: if trade is to flourish in DarkFall, we need safe areas and trade functions such as NPC Vendors.

BUT:

To make people with financial power not be able to abuse the system too much, there need to be costs related to taking advantage of opportunities that are not only monetary. That is: risk in transport, time to transport, costs to transactions. Global Auction Houses are therefore out.


The best solution to the problem I see is having local Vendor functions, as earlier described in this thread:

NPC Merchants, for small transactions:

NPC Merchant who stands in his shop, using the NPCs that already exist in NPC cities, where you put in what you want to sell and what price you want for it. And such Merchant stalls selling not only player merchandice but also common goods, being able to be built in Clan cities as well (as I have seen them be already). Only one such Merchant NPC per town.


Then people come in and buy the number of objects at the specified price as they wish, if they can afford them. Function to sort through the offers according to price, type and specific merchandice should be offered, as the offers might get pretty numerous. (For roleplaying explanation: you simply ask the Merchant what he got at what prices, instead of just browsing the shelves yourself.)


And then you go get your money at the Merchant, who takes 10-25% sale fee. The Merchant takes a personal fee (Gold sink) for a basic level, but Clan cities may tax the Merchant NPC selling service even further. You get to know how much it will cost when you accept the sell. Sale fee is taken out from the revenues, and unsold items are not charged and can be picked out at any time.


Order will stay in the NPC shop until bought, or until a certain time period lapses. (1 month?) After that it get put into storage and the one putting it in may come get it at any time. Together with any owed revenues.

Markets with own Vendors to sell lot of stuff:

You go to the Market Place, where the Market Boss is marked out on the map as an NPC you might want to talk to (maybe even with a few Quests for you to do). You talk to the Market Boss and is offered your choice of different Vendor NPCs that he may hire out to you. Each Market has it's own Level, where Clan cities may upgrade their Market to get more hirable Vendors. Each Vendor NPC is paid for by the hour.


Price of hiring Vendor should vary between cities, where the Starter cities should be cheap to stand in but have few places, and the capitals a bit more expensive, but have plenty of vendor space, as well be central locations. And of course the Chaos cities should have their prices. Clan cities should set their own price, with a basic level (Gold sink) that can be added to with Taxes, that may even vary between alliance status, forbidding neutral or allied to set up shop there even by punitive taxing if one wish to. (As payment is made in advance, taxing will not take effect until one wish to hire a new Vendor.) NPC Vendors do NOT take out a percentage of your income in fees, you just pay for their time.


When buying at a NPC Vendor, you go to the market, click the Vendor and check what he has, and buy it if you like the cost. You can there also see what the Vendor is set to be willing to buy for the Crafter, as well as put in Orders/leave Messages to the Crafter so he is contactable even if not on-line.


Vendor employer's Name, Race, Clan and Alignment should be available from the NPC Vendor, so one can favorize or boycott traders as you please.


Crafter hiring the NPC Vendor may go and pick up revenues, load up new inventory, change prices, remove inventory and set new buy orders at any time while the NPC Vendor stays put. Any messages may also be read then. When the time you paid for is over, the NPC Vendor disappears, and any revenues and goods you have owed may be picked up at the Market Boss, together with any messages.


And anyone that do NOT wish to pay gold to use the selling services, is free to use his time instead, spamming the Trade channel, or standing on the Market beside the NPC Vendors shouting out his own wares.

There will this way be even more opportunities to make money being a Merchant, as trade in general will have been enabled.

[Earthrider]

LOL, wasn't trying to flaunt credencials the guy before me was just saying something along the lines of "that I sucked at economics".

Anyway, simply put the game could benefit from the following suggestions which I will keep simple:

NPC vendors which sell for you and/or NPC vendors you can buy player-made items from.

Localized buying/selling hubs (possibly local banks also)

"caravan" vehicles which allow greater cargo space and more than one passenger (with the extra passengers being able to "shoot off")

Supply/Demand mechanics at NPC's which make prices on abundant items cheaper and rare items more expensive (so you can shop around for best price and trade between NPC's).


With these suggestions I think the player economy would be greatly improved, and hopefully they would be moderatly easy to implement (programming wise)

[flasher702]

That is: risk in transport(1), time to transport(2), costs to transactions(3). Global Auction Houses are therefore out.

You were making sense for a bit there but then you said this.
1. auction houses don't transport things. They merely connect buyers and sellers in a way that encourages dynamic supply/demand based pricing
2. auction houses don't transport things. They merely connect buyers and sellers in a way that encourages dynamic supply/demand based pricing
3. implementing transaction costs in auction houses is trivial

Are you seriously an economics professor or are you just BSing? Have you never heard of ebay??? It's a global auction house with transport risk, transport time, and transaction costs. Oh, and all the physical items for sale on ebay? They were made from materials from diverse locations (ie "farming") that traveled international shipping lanes (ie "trade routes") before being assembled at factories (ie "crafting) and being advertised on a GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE that still requires that items somehow be physically sent to you via courier (or sometimes you can pick them up in person).

Why would you think that incredibly common commercial practices that exist in our complex and chaotic world couldn't be implemented in a simplistic and controlled environment like an MMO? Have you ever even heard of EVE Online? They let you play it for free for like a week you know. Go check it out.

The straw-man implementation of an AH that you're condemning would be this: You're out killing orcs. One of them drops and awesome item. You open up the global AH interface and list it for sale *poof* it disappears from your inventory. While you're at it you buy a few stamina potions *poof* they appear in your inventory. Someone buys your item for sale and *poof* the money appears in your inventory. You're in enemy territory so you transfer it to your bank *poof* it's in your bank now all safe. While you're at it you switch your weapon with something from your bank so you can go pwn the guy you saw over there. When you kill him he drops *nothing* and you realize the game is crap because there is no transportation risk at all and cancel your subscription.

Well, you got me there. AHs are obviously crap and would ruin the game.

[Slisk]

Local markets have been asked for and discussed for YEARS. If the devs don't have it in already I think it will never be in.

I was originally excited about darkfall because of the potential for EvE type markets with all the associated economic, political and ultimately military DEPTH it adds to the game. Pity the devs didn't see it the same way as me.

Spamming chat to sell goods is annoying as hell and represents serious time losses to ANYONE wanting to buy or sell.

[lkx]

A better system I've seen is that people buy and sell their items from Local market NPC's which have prices based on supply/demand, That is, if there was a large amount of items prices went down making it easy for buyers to stock up; likewise if there were almost no items then the price was much higher to encourage sellers to offload it there. I think that the system I am proposing is superior.

Can you explain more details about how it should work?
I can't think about a working system like that.

[Lord Zeb]

You were making sense for a bit there but then you said this.

1. auction houses don't transport things. They merely connect buyers and sellers in a way that encourages dynamic supply/demand based pricing
2. auction houses don't transport things. They merely connect buyers and sellers in a way that encourages dynamic supply/demand based pricing
No. A Global Auction House provide immediate transport, by it's very function. Unless set up in a SWG style, where one bid on one place and pick it up in another, but I wouldn't call that truly global as it does not provide global deliverence service.

And even if having total information and immediate transports in theory works very well for free trade, the economic power of individuals can disturb it if they try to take advantage of that to make more money by manipulating the market. For example by buying up not only cheap stockpiles and raising the price, but all they see. (Monopolistic forces are not included in general Supply & Demand theory.)

3. implementing transaction costs in auction houses is trivial

No, implementing transaction costs will not be trivial, they will be vital. They will serve as a Gold Sink to fight inflation for those who feel the service is worth the money, and as an incentive to reduce these costs so that people will be more inclined to becoming Merchants as greater relative profits can be had by personal deals. If the fees are too large they will however be detrimental to the economy, so they need to be balanced.

Are you seriously an economics professor or are you just BSing?

Well, I wouldn't call myself a professor, as that title is the highest ranking academic title in Sweden, and I'm only an Adjunct so far. (Amanuens -> Adjunkt -> Lektor -> Docent -> Professor.) Titles are a bit different overseas though... have read that my proper title there might be "Junior Lecturer", even if I think people in general would call me a professor, being a teacher at a university.

Have you never heard of ebay??? It's a global auction house with transport risk, transport time, and transaction costs. Oh, and all the physical items for sale on ebay? They were made from materials from diverse locations (ie "farming") that traveled international shipping lanes (ie "trade routes") before being assembled at factories (ie "crafting) and being advertised on a GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE that still requires that items somehow be physically sent to you via courier (or sometimes you can pick them up in person).

Actually, eBay is more risky to do shopping in than a Global AH since the transferrence of ownership is not immediate. People do not leave off items at an "eBay station" that will send/release the item when payment is complete. Of course, for long-term businesses it is vital to retain a good name, but there are the occasional con-men that take advantage of it.

Why would you think that incredibly common commercial practices that exist in our complex and chaotic world couldn't be implemented in a simplistic and controlled environment like an MMO? Have you ever even heard of EVE Online? They let you play it for free for like a week you know. Go check it out.

Actually have heard about EVE, and I believe they have a system like they had in SWG, but with the goods a bit less available as you first buy the item then need to travel by flying there in your ship, not able to use "planetary travel services". And that is not like eBay.

Having a "global bulletin board" style auction could be managable, but then one would leave very much information easily available, so people with fortunes could use those to quickly make even more money and control the market with their financial power. The reason why they are fighting Monopolies by laws, as such people are not contributing to free trade, but disrupting it. (They will use their money to grab large amounts of goods to drive up prices so they will make more money selling the stuff, and teleport runes for easy access to the market places, if information is that free.)

But still, even such an AH would be an improvement to the game.

To make the Trade system to be properly "installed", one would also need to have Local Banks, as otherwise the trade risk would be quite small, and it would mainly be a time sink. So, for Trade Implementation, one need an AH or Local Player Vendors, for Immersive Trade System one need Local Banks and Local Player Vendors. But how Local Banking should be implemented is another discussion; go vote on that issue on Poll: How do we want the Banking system? (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=195352)

The straw-man implementation of an AH that you're condemning would be this: You're out killing orcs. One of them drops and awesome item. You open up the global AH interface and list it for sale *poof* it disappears from your inventory. While you're at it you buy a few stamina potions *poof* they appear in your inventory. Someone buys your item for sale and *poof* the money appears in your inventory. You're in enemy territory so you transfer it to your bank *poof* it's in your bank now all safe. While you're at it you switch your weapon with something from your bank so you can go pwn the guy you saw over there. When you kill him he drops *nothing* and you realize the game is crap because there is no transportation risk at all and cancel your subscription.

Well, you got me there. AHs are obviously crap and would ruin the game.

Yes, such an AH would be crap, since it is ridiculous in implementation, not contributing to immersion. Not to mention that you could get rid of any loot you have by posting it on the AH, and any Gold held by bidding, reducing risks greatly. And not the only type of AH I condemn, as you can see of this post.:sly:

[flasher702]

Well, I wouldn't call myself a professor, as that title is the highest ranking academic title in Sweden
Ah-ha! I think we might be experiencing a little bit of a language/vocabulary barrier is part of our problem. Sorry about that.

By "trivial to implement" I meant that it would be easy to implement the function. Wasn't making any comment on how important the function was.

Your "global bulletin board" is a specific implementation of what I would call a "global auction house" similar to what they have in EVE and SWG. Looks like we basically agree on everything then. Trying to leverage economic might towards anti-competitive ends is actually something that would ad depth to the game I think. I think minor tweaks to drop rates and large server populations could keep it significantly in check. Not to mention war: Someone controlling most of resource X and charging too much for it (possibly refusing to sell it at all)? Gang up on them and take the nodes back.

With extra coding effort a "global bulletin board" system could also include the ability to pay someone else to bring the item to you (like ordering something off ebay and having fedex deliver it to you... only more risky). That could give rise to being a Courier as an incentive to people to load themselves down with valuable items and venture out into the world.

[Judas1980]

Very nice suggestion in the first posting. The only problem i see, is that people get killed directly at the vendor by greedy pks. Such a Vendor should have a couple of guards who punish any aggression in a small area around the vendor.

With the fix, that only clans and allies of the clans owning cities have access to the city-bank, we would have some kind of caravans or trading routes.

[admiral awsome]

I posted the clan city tax idea months before the game came out.

[argast]

I realy like this idea.

/signed

[Bloodgloom]

THE BIG PROBLEM WITH THIS SYSTEM IS: what happens when a city changes hands or is destroyed while an npc vendor still had goods or profits on them? There is no mail system so the items cannot be returned.

In my opinion, the answer to a city changing hands would be that if a city changes hands the city vendors of pc goods should also become property of the new city owners, along with all items that the vendor has on market, and that only the owners of a city can destroy the vendor's stall although an invading force could disable it with damage in the same way that they could a farm or mine, making it inoperable to buy goods or retrieve goods from until suitably repaired but not actually damaging or destroying the goods placed therein.

Other than that, great idea... and NO, this isn't the same as the SWG system. The OP is suggesting that the SWG system might be too resource intensive (dozens of additional humaniod models slowing down framerates in each player city) and therefore is suggesting that we be able to have at least one npc merchant selling player goods in each town.

Expanding on that idea give each merchant a limit on the items it has for sale and allow clans to "purchase" multiple merchants the same way they do structures. This would allow at least some divisibility when it comes to collecting the cash from the merchant's sold goods.

Another alternative would be the EQ1/Lineage2 market model, which allowed players to go into a "vendor mode" and sell items from their inventory. My opinion is that this method has more drawbacks than the first suggestion because it forces players to remain online (taking up play slots) and would have to allow players to become "immune" to damage in the way that the npc vendors are or else who in their right mind would place items on a merchant who could be killed and looted for all goods and profits?

An "auction" (npc) merchant could be used but since there is no mail system, a player would have to return to the merchant vendor to check on his bid and or retrieve his items/cash bid.

[beltpouch]

There seems to be a bit of confusion. Just so you all know the market in Eve Online is regional, not global. And of course in Eve there is no insta transporting of anything and the market has some fairly intricate skill based rules to go along with it.

And to throw in my two cents, I think that player ran shops with player controlled and paid for NPC shopkeepers would be the best solution. Just my humble opinion.

[Traveller_]

Your "global bulletin board" is a specific implementation of what I would call a "global auction house" similar to what they have in EVE and SWG. Looks like we basically agree on everything then. Trying to leverage economic might towards anti-competitive ends is actually something that would ad depth to the game I think. I think minor tweaks to drop rates and large server populations could keep it significantly in check. Not to mention war: Someone controlling most of resource X and charging too much for it (possibly refusing to sell it at all)? Gang up on them and take the nodes back.


Just to add information to the mex above mine, I confirm that the EVE market is REGIONAL and not GLOBAL (there is also a global contract market for some rare stuff, but that's not where the bulk of trade is done) and goods localization is completely local. It still allows for market manipulation at certain levels, but it requires quite an effort, and is very interesting. Adds incentive to travel to check prices in other regions etc. In general it's a very effective system for a good economy. I suggest everybody interested in economy to check EVE online. My brother is a researcher in international economy and he has been completely astonished by the sheer complexity of EVE's economy.

[KinePs3]

/agree

Pirates of the Burning Sea is the best merchant system I ve never played.

Spamming Chat merchant system.. no pls.

[lkx]

o Putting stuff for sell will require a fee for the vendor, based on selling price.
o Additional taxes can be setted by the clancity owner clan (charged on the final price for the buyer). These will be a percentage of the selling price, and will go in the clan vault if stuff are sold.
o There are three different tax values: For market owner clanmates, for market owner allied and for everyone else.
o Also NPC cieties will have local markets, but their vendors will have very expensive fees

About these, i think that the (non refoundable) fee that the crafter will have to pay to the vendor to put stuff on sell (clan taxes will be charged on the final price for the buyer instead) should be something like:

- 30-40% of the price setted for safe racial cities vendors
- 20-30% of the price setted for chaos cities vendors
- 5-10% of the price setted for players cities vendors

Let me to do an exemple with the 40/20/10 settings:

A crafter that want to put on sell a weapon for 100g, will pay a 40 gold fee to the vendor in a racial city, 20 in a chaos city, 10 in a player city.

Lets take the player city case.

If the owner clan puts a 0% tax for clanmates, 10% for allies and 20% for external, we wil have:

- An owners clanmate will pay 100g for the weapon, the owners clan will gain nothing and the crafter will gain 90g (100-10g that he already payed)
- An owners allied will pay 110g for the weapon, the owners clan will gain 10g, and the crafter will gain 90g
- An externall will pay 120g for the weapon, the owners clan will gain 20g, and the crafter will gain 90g


Another exemple:
if the crafter want to put a weapon on sell for 200g in a chaos city, he will have pay a 40g fee.
A buyer will buy the weapon for 200g, and the crafter will get 200g, gaining 160g

[lkx]

Another thing: Of course items selled by vendors will need to be sorted by category (eg: weapons -> 1h swords or Armors -> Banded) with a proper filter interface.

[Lord Zeb]

Agree with you there, as I said before:
...
Then people come in and buy the number of objects at the specified price as they wish, if they can afford them. Function to sort through the offers according to price, type and specific merchandice should be offered, as the offers might get pretty numerous. (For roleplaying explanation: you simply ask the Merchant what he got at what prices, instead of just browsing the shelves yourself.)
...

So they should not only be sorted in a tree, but also have some sort of search engine available, so you can find what you look for easily.

[kilkan]

This is the most pressing issue for me in the game atm
also i would like to add that although local banking is important i believe it would become very tedious if for example i store x items in x clans bank and x clan loses their bank during a seige and they never build another bank. maybe a better idea is universal gold, and a one week waiting period before deposited items become universal. possibly raw materials never become universal.

[Lord Zeb]

This is the most pressing issue for me in the game atm
Agree. We definitely need local markets, people don't have the time to stand around for people to buy anything not in bulk. And hardly even that. Especially if one need to travel... so let's have the customers travel to the Markets instead, having a firm point they know they can to go to.
also i would like to add that although local banking is important i believe it would become very tedious if for example i store x items in x clans bank and x clan loses their bank during a seige and they never build another bank. maybe a better idea is universal gold, and a one week waiting period before deposited items become universal. possibly raw materials never become universal.

Truly local banking would be a good feature, even if Gold should stay Universal. And should be implemented after, or at the same time, as Markets, so people will be able to use that Gold to buy stuff when they need it.

But for Local banking to be properly done, I believe that Banks need to be indestructible. Might seem like a quick-fix to the problem, but I do not see it any other way.

But let's not discuss local banking here, use this thread instead: Poll: How do we want the Banking system? (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=195352)

[Nicolie]

Yes, I like how Shadowbane had personal merchants. DFO needs something like that.

[lkx]

Agree. We definitely need local markets, people don't have the time to stand around for people to buy anything not in bulk. And hardly even that. Especially if one need to travel... so let's have the customers travel to the Markets instead, having a firm point they know they can to go to.


Truly local banking would be a good feature, even if Gold should stay Universal. And should be implemented after, or at the same time, as Markets, so people will be able to use that Gold to buy stuff when they need it.

But for Local banking to be properly done, I believe that Banks need to be indestructible. Might seem like a quick-fix to the problem, but I do not see it any other way.

But let's not discuss local banking here, use this thread instead: Poll: How do we want the Banking system? (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=195352)

Yep, however i think that zonal banks would be the best compromise. But local markets are far more important than banking.

[Earthrider]

I'd say after playing this game for a while it definitly needs vendors that you can buy sell from so that people can merchant around without having to spam a trade channel or worse undercut themselves to sell anything.

This game also needs a speed bonus on the roads, because travelling around even with the mount is SLOW compared to the enoumous world map.

Multi-passenger vehicles would be fantastic (wagons, carrages) but I wouln't want them to be a month long grind to build.

While im at it, the gathering masteries need to speed up your gathering so you can get materials quicker and not have to spend hours in order to get an amount you can actually sell (and risk being ganked all the time).

[FraMe49]

*signed and bumbed

[KinePs3]

Signed

Hoping someday ll be local markets, or auctioneers at least

[lkx]

While im at it, the gathering masteries need to speed up your gathering so you can get materials quicker and not have to spend hours in order to get an amount you can actually sell (and risk being ganked all the time).

Well, another help for economy could be wildernes mines with increased resource gain and a chance for rare ores (maybe only one type... but not only that frakking iron! :P )

[lkx]

just a little bump to avoid the lock for becoming too old

[Sorenal]

The OP's suggestion would be a vast improvement to the economy of DF. It's not the ideal solution, but its a simple clean fix to many problems.

I have to agree with DarkonDraco in that there should be a search function that allows you to see who is selling what and where, though I completely disagree with the notion that there needs to be some sort of faster travel to facilitate trade.

I believe there should be some sort of faster travel - but not as the original poster intended, more like faster travel speed on roads (only with weapons put away).

On topic - advanced economics will improve the game on many levels and vastly help with getting ppl interested in Darkfall.

[-morph-]

well, i dont think its a very pressing issue at the moment what with the problems they got but some time in teh future id like to see a local trading system with a global search and payment method - what i mean is this

you go to a town and put somethign up for sale - the item goes into escrow at teh local place you put up the order.

every player in the game can view everythign for sale on the market and where that item is in teh game world at any market they happen to be at - they can also buy any item from any market - however if they buy an item that isnt in the market they are in they must have to trval to that market to pick up their item

this way you get a local market system and teh nice economy that comes with it, without the hasstle and complication of having to travel to every market just to see whats avaliable

I think this would be brilliant. Not only would it facilitate better trade, but it would also encourage more roaming and thus create more pvp etc.

Sweet ideas in this thread.

[-morph-]

Local markets have been asked for and discussed for YEARS. If the devs don't have it in already I think it will never be in.

I was originally excited about darkfall because of the potential for EvE type markets with all the associated economic, political and ultimately military DEPTH it adds to the game. Pity the devs didn't see it the same way as me.

Spamming chat to sell goods is annoying as hell and represents serious time losses to ANYONE wanting to buy or sell.

They said for a very long time there would be player controled vendors.

So far all the missing features introduced since launch have come in as they wanted them to, if a little late. Except stuff that was already in but in an altered form to what they had announced.

I suspect they may be dragging their heels on this, like a few other features, because they want to introduce these features as intended over the years.

But I am probably wrong, Tasos and Erick are probably just swimming in a pool full of greek currency chortling away playing MO beta instead of working. :ohno:

[Random-Name]

Agree

[Krucial]

signed

[samureyed]

Agree

[lkx]

just a bump 'cause the argument is coming back