Christianity - Fairytale Land

[Gage Gritshaw]

Lucas Buck:

You were not infracted for insulting someone's religion. You were infracted for derailing a thread in Clan Discussion. If you want to go bitch about religion, do it in Off Topic.

The above quote was thrown in so that I would be free from any further infractions. I was instructed by staff that it was fine to make this post regarding religion and as such I am taking the liberty to do such.

Christianity is basic fundamental belief system.

1) Christians believe that they are made in the image of their god, as most religions do.

2) They believe they are the chosen people of all creation, as most religions do.

3) They believe that when they die if they adhere to the rules set forth in a text written by men that they will be rewarded by their god. As most religions do.

4) They have a prophet that was sent forth by the creator of all. This prophet was a human being of flesh and blood, as most religions do.


We will start with fundamental issues and work our way on from there.

1) Do you honestly believe that the creator of all existence has your form, or better to say that you have the creator's form? That is pretty fucking conceited isnt it? You are one special mother fucker.

2) Wow, you honestly believe you are the "chosen" biological entity in the universe. Wow, conceited.

3) The book title "Bible" was written by men. Men with an agenda. That agenda was to control the masses through a false divine rule system. Honestly, to think that "Bible" is a work of "God" is pretty fucking stupid. I bet you believe that "The Lord of the Rings" was inspired by God too. Its a fucking book that was written by men, get over it.

4) What is more likely, that Jesus was the son of the creator of the universe and came forth with a message from beyond the cosmos for humanity or that he was just a human being of flesh and blood that spouted off his mouth, couldnt keep a job, got a following of other deadbeats who couldnt keep a job and desperate illiterate slaves, and was finally killed by the local law for causing an uprising. He was a man of flesh and blood and nothing more. He thrived on the fact that much of the world was in a suffering situation and got people who had nothing else to turn to but slavery to fall in behind him because he preached that they would have freedom if they followed him and his wishes. For fucks sake, the man was a con-artist who profited up until his death from the fact he was swindling a group of desperate individuals with nothing else to live for.

Now that the fundamentals are shattered we can move on to rationality.

We are one galaxy among billions upon billions of other galaxies. Our galaxy is actually very small compared to the vast majority of other galaxies. Do you honestly believe that of the billions upon billions of galaxies that the planet Earth was the only planet with the right conditions to support life and that of all the life on the planet Earth that the Human race is the chosen biological entity in the Universe.

To make matters worse the Bible states that Hebrews are the chosen people of God. Of all the races in the universe do you honestly believe that?

Wow, Christians are so fucking conceited.

Also, the Pope announced last year out of the blue that it is no longer a sin to believe in aliens. Go look it up. It would seem that even the Catholic Church has figgured out how fucking stupid their believe system is.

Anyways, thats what I have for now, I'm going to lunch.

[Enduser5]

Congrats you just shot fish in a barrel!

Here's a cool web-link for your reward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HB8b1I2NQA

[JEB82888]

I don't understand why people like you get so fired up. If you don't believe in religion then don't believe it - but to waste your time writing novels like this is pointless.

Easy tiger.

[ZeroFX]

Anyways, thats what I have for now, I'm going to lunch.
Also, what happens to all the unbaptised babies?!?
Also, what about all people born before Judeo-christian ethic?!?
They are all stuck in Limbo.

Damn you Adam!! Damn yoooooou!!!

[Wolffen]

The only way Freedom works is you have to let other people Be Free.

Anyone can believe anything they want.

[Pizzanoid]

You should have attacked the problems of evil with an omniscient, omnipotent, and omni-benevolent god. Or free will.

Overall it's 4/10

[stalwart]

lolwut's your point?

a couple points here:

1 ) you call christians conceited (which, if i know my definitions), that means they have excessive/false pride. you believe they are wrong. then you make this thread and obviously spend a few minutes on it. who is being conceited here? you go out of your way to try to convince people that they are wrong when you should know that you can't do that.

you're the conceited one this time.

2 ) you make several assumptions in this thread. the bible was written by man? how do you know he wasn't inspired by god? how do you know they are wrong? do you have any proof or are you going with "it's the general consensus that they are wrong?" the first thing that you learn when working with science and research is that when there's a general consensus, it means that there's probably a lack of evidence and that's the best they could come up with. immediately suspect.

the problem here being that science and religion don't mix, yet you talk about there being billions of galaxies as if that's some proof that god doesn't exist.

you mention the pope changing his mind. he admitted that christians were largely wrong, and now you criticize him for it? impressive amount of angst you got built up, because now christians can't do anything right. in your mind, it would seem that christians are inherently wrong BECAUSE they are christians.

3 ) you call it stupid, yet i bet that the n00biest priest in the world has more education than you do. i've said i'm a million times that i'm not a grammar/spelling nazi, but your post has mistakes in it to the point where your sentences lose meaning in some instances. who is being conceited here?

you sir, are the conceited hypocrit here. if you really believed that there is no god, and had full faith in it, you wouldn't have made this post.

you are much more like the bible thumping christians you hate so much than you think, i imagine.

[Gloomrender]

lolwut's your point?

a couple points here:

1 ) you call christians conceited (which, if i know my definitions), that means they have excessive/false pride. you believe they are wrong. then you make this thread and obviously spend a few minutes on it. who is being conceited here? you go out of your way to try to convince people that they are wrong when you should know that you can't do that.

you're the conceited one this time.

Kind of an ad hominem/straw man. Both he and Christians can be conceited at once...whether he is or not doesn't matter when speaking about Christians.

2 ) you make several assumptions in this thread. the bible was written by man? how do you know he wasn't inspired by god? how do you know they are wrong? do you have any proof or are you going with "it's the general consensus that they are wrong?" the first thing that you learn when working with science and research is that when there's a general consensus, it means that there's probably a lack of evidence and that's the best they could come up with. immediately suspect.

Because It's ultimate contents were voted on by popular vote, by people that not even Christians claim to be divinely inspired. This is as dictated by normal men as it gets.

the problem here being that science and religion don't mix, yet you talk about there being billions of galaxies as if that's some proof that god doesn't exist.

If there are other more technologically advanced or equivalent civilizations existing in the universe, It's much harder to claim that our little blue dot is 'the one chosen world' with 'the one chosen people of god made in his image'.

in your mind, it would seem that christians are inherently wrong BECAUSE they are christians.

Yup. If you believe in Nazi mythology you're wrong. Same with bronze age mythology.

3 ) you call it stupid, yet i bet that the n00biest priest in the world has more education than you do. i've said i'm a million times that i'm not a grammar/spelling nazi, but your post has mistakes in it to the point where your sentences lose meaning in some instances. who is being conceited here?

you sir, are the conceited hypocrit here. if you really believed that there is no god, and had full faith in it, you wouldn't have made this post.

you are much more like the bible thumping christians you hate so much than you think, i imagine.

I'm not about to say he's a genius, but his arguments aren't totally without merit.

[Gloomrender]

Btw OP you forgot how they have a direct phone line to the ultimate being by putting their hands together, and how they believe everyone who doesn't hold their beliefs are immoral or amoral; and only worthy of hell.

[Enduser5]

The only way Freedom works is you have to let other people Be Free.

Anyone can believe anything they want.

Your point? How is invoking freedom of speech to speak out against it a violation of that principle?

[stalwart]

Kind of an ad hominem/straw man. Both he and Christians can be conceited at once...whether he is or not doesn't matter when speaking about Christians.



Because It's ultimate contents were voted on by popular vote, by people that not even Christians claim to be divinely inspired. This is as dictated by normal men as it gets.



If there are other more technologically advanced or equivalent civilizations existing in the universe, It's much harder to claim that our little blue dot is 'the one chosen world' with 'the one chosen people of god made in his image'.



Yup. If you believe in Nazi mythology you're wrong. Same with bronze age mythology.



I'm not about to say he's a genius, but his arguments aren't totally without merit.

the only thing i really need to say to rebut everything here is that all a christian has to say to nullify the argument is "i believe in _______" and the argument is over.

he's creating this thread because that drives him crazy so he's going to be as loud and obnoxious as the people that he's criticizing. i get the impression that it's the bible thumpers that stop by his house 3 times a week that annoy him, not necessarily the quiet christians. however, he's not "attacking" the bible thumpers, he's attacking all of christianity with arguments that don't even apply.

[Gage Gritshaw]

Someone posted above that I said I didnt believe in God.

LMFAO

I never once said I didnt believe in God, I siimply said I didnt believe in the Christian God.

There is a major difference.

[Aacevedo]

Lucas Buck:
The above quote ...
Anyways, thats what I have for now, I'm going to lunch.

Die you heretic piece of shit, the Inquisitors should burn your ass in the stake! :bang:

[Gloomrender]

the only thing i really need to say to rebut everything here is that all a christian has to say to nullify the argument is "i believe in _______" and the argument is over.

Uh...nope. That doesn't refute anything I said.

[Rilman]

Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, most of which I agree with, there's no need to attack people so quite vigorously and agressively for theyr'e beliefs.

The human races biggest fault is lack of tolerance.

[Gage Gritshaw]

Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, most of which I agree with, there's no need to attack people so quite vigorously and agressively for theyr'e beliefs.

The human races biggest fault is lack of tolerance.

I am not intolerant.

I was raised Christian. My family that I love is Christian. My wife's family, all great people, all Christians.

I just find humor in the fact that they whole heartedly believe in a fairytale to the point that they would base their lives on its teachings.

I can get a bit of a laugh at their expense, it doesnt mean I hate them. In fact, a buddy of mine is a hardcore Christian and we will go on for hours about it back and forth with one another, have a good time doing it too. In no way do I hate Christians at all, I just think their belief system is a bit silly.

[Kadagan]

Someone posted above that I said I didnt believe in God.

LMFAO

I never once said I didnt believe in God, I siimply said I didnt believe in the Christian God.

There is a major difference.

hehe... but of course you're God's existence is based on fact.. not belief. Damn if only rest of the world could be as level headed and intellectual as you. Hell.. you could be Einstein reincarnated.

[stalwart]

Uh...nope. That doesn't refute anything I said.

here = in this thread. not necessarily your comment. yours was just the one i quoted.

[Gage Gritshaw]

hehe... but of course you're God's existence is based on fact.. not belief. Damn if only rest of the world could be as level headed and intellectual as you. Hell.. you could be Einstein reincarnated.

In general I dont try to put a label or any stipulations on God.

To claim that I would know anything about the will or lack there of, of the creator of the universe, if such a creator does exist, (You see, I dont even claim to know if a God does exist) would be pretty damn conceited on my own part.

You, myself, the Christians, the Jews, none of us, human mortals, know anything about the creator of the cosmos or even if such a creator exists...

[Empty Pockets]

I am not intolerant.

I was raised Christian. My family that I love is Christian. My wife's family, all great people, all Christians.

I just find humor in the fact that they whole heartedly believe in a fairytale to the point that they would base their lives on its teachings.

I can get a bit of a laugh at their expense, it doesnt mean I hate them. In fact, a buddy of mine is a hardcore Christian and we will go on for hours about it back and forth with one another, have a good time doing it too. In no way do I hate Christians at all, I just think their belief system is a bit silly.

What you posted wasn't a "laugh" it was an expression of complete anger and hatred for another person's beliefs. WTF is your problem? For someone who's lucky enough to be "enlightened" enough to see past what their parents raised them, you're awfully fucking angry too.

I'm aethist, I don't believe in god. I do believe christianity was one of the better things that happened to society because of its strong moral dynamics, one of the reasons america did so well when it started up. Do I believe in god? No. Do I hate christians? Not in the least.

I mean, fuck, if I were to post this type of shit about Islam, i'd get flamed from here to vegas. The ironic thing is, Islam is a far more intolerant and destructive religion, but if I talk against it it's suddenly "racist" "intolerant" and "misguided".

Double standards.

[Aacevedo]

In general I dont try to put a label or any stipulations on God.

To claim that I would know anything about the will or lack there of, of the creator of the universe, if such a creator does exist, (You see, I dont even claim to know if a God does exist) would be pretty damn conceited on my own part.

You, myself, the Christians, the Jews, none of us, human mortals, know anything about the creator of the cosmos or even if such a creator exists...

BURN HIM!

He's attacking The Holy Trinity as stated by the Holy Roman Catholic Church and His Holiness The Pope Benedict XVI

[Gage Gritshaw]

What you posted wasn't a "laugh" it was an expression of complete anger and hatred for another person's beliefs. WTF is your problem? For someone who's lucky enough to be "enlightened" enough to see past what their parents raised them, you're awfully fucking angry too.



The difference here is that you read my post looking for hate, where as I wrote my post with a chuckle and a smirk. Go back, re-read it without looking for hate in it, as if someone were just saying it over a cup of coffee with a group of friends (which I have) and you will see that there isnt any "hate" in it.

I never once said, "I hate all Christians and they should all die." At the very best I called them stupid, which is a 2nd grader insult often used on playgrounds. I'm not exactly on Adolf Hitlers scale here.

[Gloomrender]

I'm aethist, I don't believe in god. I do believe christianity was one of the better things that happened to society because of its strong moral dynamics,

The dark ages had such great moral and ethical standards. We need more that today. So true.

one of the reasons america did so well when it started up.

No America did so well because it had thinkers who thought beyond monarchy and theocracy, who's ideas were based on naturalistic moral principles rather than divine ones.

[Empty Pockets]

3) The book title "Bible" was written by men. Men with an agenda. That agenda was to control the masses through a false divine rule system. Honestly, to think that "Bible" is a work of "God" is pretty fucking stupid. I bet you believe that "The Lord of the Rings" was inspired by God too. Its a fucking book that was written by men, get over it.

If you can't get the latent agressiveness in that post, you're blind to your own anger.

I agree with your points (mostly). But, weither you see it or not, there's a lot of intolerence in the way you wrote that, it's intentionally inflamitory.

I mean hell, if I walk up to you and say "You stupid dumbfuck, get over your god damn ex" that's crass, inflamitory, and rude, but suddenly because it's religion it's a chuckle and a laugh?

[Gage Gritshaw]

If you can't get the latent agressiveness in that post, you're blind to your own anger.

I agree with your points (mostly). But, weither you see it or not, there's a lot of intolerence in the way you wrote that, it's intentionally inflamitory.

I mean hell, if I walk up to you and say "You stupid dumbfuck, get over your god damn ex" that's crass, inflamitory, and rude, but suddenly because it's religion it's a chuckle and a laugh?


I have had buddies call me a stupid dumbfuck which usually leads to a laugh and exchanged name calling, typically trying to see who can get more crazy with their crude concoctions. Sometimes it ends in a friendly tussle.

Maybe its a guy thing.

There was probably a time in my life when there was a bit of aggression in me towards this topic, but not anymore...Now I just feel its my duty to try and save as many people from Christianity as possible.

And yes, because its "religion" it is a chuckle and a laugh. Comparing religion, which is on par with a fairytale story to a real life relationship between two individuals is like comparing a mountain, to a mole hill.

[Empty Pockets]

The dark ages had such great moral and ethical standards. We need more that today. So true.

Yeah yeah, the crusades, dark ages, blah blah blah.

What about islamic terrorism? Cult killings? Hindu attacks on other religions? The entire french revolution, one of the bloodiest and darkest stains on the history of france, all in the name of reason?

Intolerance and stuff like that isn't a defect of Christianity or Islam or Hindu or even Aethiem, it's a defect of human nature. Just log youtube and watch some video of football fans getting violent over teams.

No America did so well because it had thinkers who thought beyond monarchy and theocracy, who's ideas were based on naturalistic moral principles rather than divine ones.

Which had a large part to do with the christian raising of the founders. A lot of the principles behind the constutution and founding of America were taking form christian writings.

Sure, there were agnostic or unreligious people at the Constitutional Convention, and we owe them for their clear reasoning and thought. But, largely, the difference between the French Revolution and the American Revolution was that the Americans had a definite reason for morality other than a utopian goodwill for other people - religion. It's one of the main reasons why our revolution worked and their didn't.

[PirateGlen]

If you can't get the latent agressiveness in that post, you're blind to your own anger.

I agree with your points (mostly). But, weither you see it or not, there's a lot of intolerence in the way you wrote that, it's intentionally inflamitory.

I mean hell, if I walk up to you and say "You stupid dumbfuck, get over your god damn ex" that's crass, inflamitory, and rude, but suddenly because it's religion it's a chuckle and a laugh?

I've always found it pretty rude to say "Believe what I believe or you will be tortured forever in the afterlife."

[PirateGlen]

Yeah yeah, the crusades, dark ages, blah blah blah.

What about islamic terrorism? Cult killings? Hindu attacks on other religions? The entire french revolution, one of the bloodiest and darkest stains on the history of france, all in the name of reason?

Intolerance and stuff like that isn't a defect of Christianity or Islam or Hindu or even Aethiem, it's a defect of human nature. Just log youtube and watch some video of football fans getting violent over teams.



Which had a large part to do with the christian raising of the founders. A lot of the principles behind the constutution and founding of America were taking form christian writings.

Sure, there were agnostic or unreligious people at the Constitutional Convention, and we owe them for their clear reasoning and thought. But, largely, the difference between the French Revolution and the American Revolution was that the Americans had a definite reason for morality other than a utopian goodwill for other people - religion. It's one of the main reasons why our revolution worked and their didn't.

I'm pretty sure the revolution worked. Is there some secret french king?

[Aacevedo]

the original revolution failed... remember Napoleon?

[Gloomrender]

Yeah yeah, the crusades, dark ages, blah blah blah.

What about islamic terrorism? Cult killings? Hindu attacks on other religions? The entire french revolution, one of the bloodiest and darkest stains on the history of france, all in the name of reason?

Intolerance and stuff like that isn't a defect of Christianity or Islam or Hindu or even Aethiem, it's a defect of human nature. Just log youtube and watch some video of football fans getting violent over teams.

The Dark Ages were a direct result of Christian superstition. As for other religions, I'm not saying they're any better. They all make people psychotic and immoral in different ways, and saying "oh that's just humanity" is a lame excuse, which ignores the direct psychological causality of these belief systems being indoctrinated into the minds of their respective believers.



Which had a large part to do with the christian raising of the founders. A lot of the principles behind the constutution and founding of America were taking form christian writings.

Total bullshit. Name one thing.

Sure, there were agnostic or unreligious people at the Constitutional Convention, and we owe them for their clear reasoning and thought. But, largely, the difference between the French Revolution and the American Revolution was that the Americans had a definite reason for morality other than a utopian goodwill for other people - religion. It's one of the main reasons why our revolution worked and their didn't.

Total revisionist propoganda. Sad that you actually believe it. Freedom from religion is a good example of how wrong you are.

[Empty Pockets]

I'm pretty sure the revolution worked. Is there some secret french king?

America came out of their revolution a relatively peaceful nation that skyrocketed in a record short amount of time. France on the other hand went through a violent, dragged out, bloody revolution that left millions dead. Many of the leading minds in france left, never to return. France fell from being one of the major superpowers in the world at that time to something a fraction of its glory, and today other than its culture it's still a second world country, outshone by other European powers such as the UK and Germany.

Read up on Thomas Paine. He was deeply involved in both the American Revolution and the French one, and he wrote a lot about them both. I don't have time to go into this too deeply, but there's a lot there that shows the differences between these two revolutions.

[PirateGlen]

America came out of their revolution a relatively peaceful nation that skyrocketed in a record short amount of time. France on the other hand went through a violent, dragged out, bloody revolution that left millions dead. Many of the leading minds in france left, never to return. France fell from being one of the major superpowers in the world at that time to something a fraction of its glory, and today other than its culture it's still a second world country, outshone by other European powers such as the UK and Germany.

Read up on Thomas Paine. He was deeply involved in both the American Revolution and the French one, and he wrote a lot about them both. I don't have time to go into this too deeply, but there's a lot there that shows the differences between these two revolutions.

Mexico and the Native Americans might beg to differ.

Also I'm calling bullshit on the millions number. Cite a source for it

[PirateGlen]

the original revolution failed... remember Napoleon?

King Bonaparte?

[Aacevedo]

Emperor Bonaparte :D

[Dread_Og]

If you want a pure Christian society look at the dark ages. The Enlightenment had already pacified Christianity, and the primary founding fathers were deists that adhered to Enlightenment values. God and Christianity weren't left out of the Constitution by mistake.

The situation in Europe was entirely different. That the French Revolution failed because they lacked 'good Christian morals' is ridiculous.

[PirateGlen]

Emperor Bonaparte :D

But the Monarchy is gone, correct? Look, that is the cost of doing business. I told you there would be risks.

[Threven]

Lucas Buck:



The above quote was thrown in so that I would be free from any further infractions. I was instructed by staff that it was fine to make this post regarding religion and as such I am taking the liberty to do such.

Christianity is basic fundamental belief system.

1) Christians believe that they are made in the image of their god, as most religions do.

Congrats

Lucas Buck:
2) They believe they are the chosen people of all creation, as most religions do.

Yep

Lucas Buck:
3) They believe that when they die if they adhere to the rules set forth in a text written by men that they will be rewarded by their god. As most religions do.

Written by men but given from God and yes I'll be rewarded by God if I believe that Jesus was his son and died for us not by doing good deeds if that's what you mean.

Lucas Buck:
4) They have a prophet that was sent forth by the creator of all. This prophet was a human being of flesh and blood, as most religions do.

Yes we have a messiah and many prophets not just one.

Lucas Buck:
We will start with fundamental issues and work our way on from there.

1) Do you honestly believe that the creator of all existence has your form, or better to say that you have the creator's form? That is pretty fucking conceited isnt it? You are one special mother fucker.

You are correct we have his form and you have his form too remember Gods form isn't just skin deep also God choose the form I didn't so I'm not conceited at all.

Lucas Buck:
2) Wow, you honestly believe you are the "chosen" biological entity in the universe. Wow, conceited.

Refer to my last statement since you can't get past the conceited part.

Lucas Buck:
3) The book title "Bible" was written by men. Men with an agenda. That agenda was to control the masses through a false divine rule system. Honestly, to think that "Bible" is a work of "God" is pretty fucking stupid. I bet you believe that "The Lord of the Rings" was inspired by God too. Its a fucking book that was written by men, get over it.

Just because control through a false divine rule system has been around in the past doesn't mean the bible is wrong and the agenda is to spread the word of God to know and under stand God and to give you a choice to believe in God or not, the bible was not intended to control the masses.

Lucas Buck:
4) What is more likely, that Jesus was the son of the creator of the universe and came forth with a message from beyond the cosmos for humanity or that he was just a human being of flesh and blood that spouted off his mouth, couldnt keep a job, got a following of other deadbeats who couldnt keep a job and desperate illiterate slaves, and was finally killed by the local law for causing an uprising. He was a man of flesh and blood and nothing more. He thrived on the fact that much of the world was in a suffering situation and got people who had nothing else to turn to but slavery to fall in behind him because he preached that they would have freedom if they followed him and his wishes. For fucks sake, the man was a con-artist who profited up until his death from the fact he was swindling a group of desperate individuals with nothing else to live for.

If you can prove it then show me otherwise stop spouting guesses to try to validate anything you say.

Lucas Buck:
Now that the fundamentals are shattered we can move on to rationality.

Sorry not going to happen, you are just annoying and should go away.

Lucas Buck:
We are one galaxy among billions upon billions of other galaxies. Our galaxy is actually very small compared to the vast majority of other galaxies. Do you honestly believe that of the billions upon billions of galaxies that the planet Earth was the only planet with the right conditions to support life and that of all the life on the planet Earth that the Human race is the chosen biological entity in the Universe.

When you find some aliens from space give me a call.

Lucas Buck:
To make matters worse the Bible states that Hebrews are the chosen people of God. Of all the races in the universe do you honestly believe that?

Yep they are chosen from God is there a problem?

Lucas Buck:
Wow, Christians are so fucking conceited..

You really like the word conceited everytime I see you post it I think your angry for no reason.

Lucas Buck:
Also, the Pope announced last year out of the blue that it is no longer a sin to believe in aliens. Go look it up. It would seem that even the Catholic Church has figgured out how fucking stupid their believe system is.

Anyways, thats what I have for now, I'm going to lunch.

Catholics have there own set of rules for there religion try not to get it confused with other Christian religions and faiths.

[Empty Pockets]

Total revisionist propoganda. Sad that you actually believe it. Freedom from religion is a good example of how wrong you are.

Let's put it this way.

When the constitution was founded, a radically new concept was introduced in its writing. Until this point, government was almost universally depentant on "good people" ruling justly "for the good of everybody", which inevitably lead to corruption as the people in control had no reason to do the will of the people, instead using their power for their own benefit. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all.

The entire system of divided powers and checks and balances, instead of relying on "good people" putting aside their ambitions, it harnessed those ambitions. With the dividing of power, ambitious individuals kept themselves in check by competing with each other, forced to depend on each other and divide power between each other.

Communism is an awesome concept in theory. But it doesn't work. Why?

Because of our basic survival instinct. That's why. I know some people that used to live in hippy communes, and instead of the harmonic utopia they are supposed to be, with everybody working together for their own good, it ends up with 80% of the people doing almost nothing and the other 20% carrying the load.

It's human nature to NOT do something without a direct benefits. One of the things that made religion work so well is, instead of a plain list of "do this, don't do this, and if everybody does this we'll all be better off", there's that direct reward in it. Be it the 70 virgins, heaven, nirvana, or just plain not roasting in hell forever, there's that selfish personal reason.

One of the concerns with total cultural freedom from religion is that the human race (or at least most of it) isn't evolved enough to handle working for other people's good instead of their own. It's like a superhero movie - x-men, for example. If that were to really happen, with random people everywhere getting supernatural and almost undefeatable powers, it could very well be the end of the race, because humanity isn't evolved enough to handle that kind of power.

I know I'm probably going to get flamed to death over this, but that's why I see religion (or at least peaceful religions) as a necessary evil. I don't expect anybody here to agree with me, but from what I've studied and seen, it's the best conclusion I can make unless somebody can come up with a good reason why I'm wrong with plain logical explanations. Humanity is incapable of fairly governing itself when the only direct reward is to slightly increase life for everybody. It's too easy to steal a little on the side, to cheat, to benefit yourself. You're not going to see the results yourself after all.

[ArcaneSoul213]

Bonaparte only ruled for a short time.

But lets get to the fact that MORE people have been killed in the name of GOD, then any other conflict on EARTH. And actually thats not even killed. Those people were murdered and the savagery of the crusaders was second to none.

The reason the dark ages are called as such, is the fact the plague struck at the same time resulting in, lets say, a reset of sorts. The plague wiped out hundreds of thousands of people.

Heres another one for ya. How many innocent people were burned at the stake, pulled apart by horses or drowned because rich land owners said someone was a witch to gain their property?

One of the most intolerant religions out there is christianity. They have killed more people in the name of god then any other religion. And thats including muslam.

They didnt have just one crusade they had two. So unlike the french revolution where you say millions were killed. Which is totally FALSE. The crusades did kill millions and enslaved many more.

[Uska d'Orien]

Also, what happens to all the unbaptised babies?!?
Also, what about all people born before Judeo-christian ethic?!?
They are all stuck in Limbo.

Damn you Adam!! Damn yoooooou!!!

I think catholics disposed of limbo been awhile since I left the catholic church

[Empty Pockets]

Bonaparte only ruled for a short time.

But lets get to the fact that MORE people have been killed in the name of GOD, then any other conflict on EARTH. And actually thats not even killed. Those people were murdered and the savagery of the crusaders was second to none.

The reason the dark ages are called as such, is the fact the plague struck at the same time resulting in, lets say, a reset of sorts. The plague wiped out hundreds of thousands of people.

Heres another one for ya. How many innocent people were burned at the stake, pulled apart by horses or drowned because rich land owners said someone was a witch to gain their property?

One of the most intolerant religions out there is christianity. They have killed more people in the name of god then any other religion. And thats including muslam.

They didnt have just one crusade they had two. So unlike the french revolution where you say millions were killed. Which is totally FALSE. The crusades did kill millions and enslaved many more.

Yes, but christianity today is a far cry from the christianity of the middle ages. In terms of tolerance, I'd say current Islamic nations such as indonesia and the middle east are close in nature to what europe was in the middle ages with christianity.

As I said before, intolerance isn't a religion thing, it's a human thing.

[Dread_Og]

It's human nature to NOT do something without a direct benefits. One of the things that made religion work so well is, instead of a plain list of "do this, don't do this, and if everybody does this we'll all be better off", there's that direct reward in it. Be it the 70 virgins, heaven, nirvana, or just plain not roasting in hell forever, there's that selfish personal reason.

The unwashed masses are only moral because of a belief in an imaginary after life? You seem to have a tendency to oversimplify everything. What about the fact we are social animals and cooperation and altruistic behavior can even be observed in monkeys? What about the golden rule - treat others the way that you want to be treated? Following this moral precept gives real benefits in the only life that you get.

[shadowy]

...

They didnt have just one crusade they had two. So unlike the french revolution where you say millions were killed. Which is totally FALSE. The crusades did kill millions and enslaved many more.

Actually catholics made countless crusades in the middle ages, most of them directed against muslim controlled areas but pagans and orthodox christians got their share too.

[Gage Gritshaw]

Congrats

Written by men but given from God and yes I'll be rewarded by God if I believe that Jesus was his son and died for us not by doing good deeds if that's what you mean.


Given by God? Can you prove that?

Congrats
You are correct we have his form and you have his form too remember Gods form isn't just skin deep also God choose the form I didn't so I'm not conceited at all.


Have you seen God recently to prove this? Next time you do, please take a picture for me.


Congrats
Just because control through a false divine rule system has been around in the past doesn't mean the bible is wrong and the agenda is to spread the word of God to know and under stand God and to give you a choice to believe in God or not, the bible was not intended to control the masses.


Yes, it is intended to control the masses.

Congrats
If you can prove it then show me otherwise stop spouting guesses to try to validate anything you say.


If you can disprove it show me otherwise. Stop spouting off that I am just guessing and actually validate something.

Congrats
When you find some aliens from space give me a call.


Yeah, we'll make a date for lunch. You show up with your God, I'll show up with my aliens.

Congrats
Yep they are chosen from God is there a problem?


Aside from the fact its a load of donkey crap? Nope, no problem, glad we agree.

Congrats
You really like the word conceited everytime I see you post it I think your angry for no reason.


I only use it where its necessary.

Congrats
Catholics have there own set of rules for there religion try not to get it confused with other Christian religions and faiths.



I'm sorry, there are so many different sects of the Christian Cult that can never agree with one another that I often get them confused. My mistake.

[PirateGlen]

Yes, but christianity today is a far cry from the christianity of the middle ages. In terms of tolerance, I'd say current Islamic nations such as indonesia and the middle east are close in nature to what europe was in the middle ages with christianity.

As I said before, intolerance isn't a religion thing, it's a human thing.

Dogmatic justification is a religious thing.

[Empty Pockets]

The unwashed masses are only moral because of a belief in an imaginary after life? You seem to have a tendency to oversimplify everything. What about the fact we are social animals and cooperation and altruistic behavior can even be observed in monkeys? What about the golden rule - treat others the way that you want to be treated? Following this moral precept gives real benefits in the only life that you get.

True altruism is very rare, and against human nature. It's the reason theoretically sound systems like communism failed, because it cuts against the basic instinct of self preservation at the cost of others. Cooperation is not a natural state.

[Empty Pockets]

Dogmatic justification is a religious thing.

No, it's called common sense. What do I care if other people delude each other in religions? You aren't going to be able to stop it, I'm not going to be able to stop it, as long as it benefits society overall, and a religion with strong morals does just that, I don't give two shits.

[shadowy]

True altruism is very rare, and against human nature. It's the reason theoretically sound systems like communism failed, because it cuts against the basic instinct of self preservation at the cost of others. Cooperation is not a natural state.

Cooperation in small groups is very natural thing to humans, cooperation with people outside your "pack" however is not.

[Gage Gritshaw]

No, it's called common sense. What do I care if other people delude each other in religions? You aren't going to be able to stop it, I'm not going to be able to stop it, as long as it benefits society overall, and a religion with strong morals does just that, I don't give two shits.

I only have a problem with it when it directly gets in the way of potential positive gains for society.

Gays arent tolerated and face much social stigma and HATE due to Christianity. Where is the all mighty tolerance now?

Stem cell research. This may save countless lives and yet for a decade we wouldnt give it the attention it deserved simply because our leaders held Christian values.

[Empty Pockets]

Cooperation in small groups is very natural thing to humans, cooperation with people outside your "pack" however is not.

Thanks, you said it better.

[Dread_Og]

True altruism is very rare, and against human nature. It's the reason theoretically sound systems like communism failed, because it cuts against the basic instinct of self preservation at the cost of others. Cooperation is not a natural state.

Actually, cooperation is a natural state. Tribes of humans, troops of monkeys, packs of wolves all get along quite well. Getting along with others actually increases your chances at survival.

[Empty Pockets]

Gays arent tolerated and face much social stigma and HATE due to Christianity. Where is the all mighty tolerance now?

Stem cell research. This may save countless lives and yet for a decade we wouldnt give it the attention it deserved simply because our leaders held Christian values.

Issues that have to be dealt with.

[Gage Gritshaw]

Actually, cooperation is a natural state. Tribes of humans, troops of monkeys, packs of wolves all get along quite well. Getting along with others actually increases your chances at survival.

I think they meant more along the lines of "Outside your social circle."

Your tribe is your social circle. But seperate tribes will war with one another.

Troops of monkeys will war with one another as well for that matter. I watched a monkey fight on the Discovery channel, it was awesome in a horrible crude and violent way. (Wild dogs too.)

[PirateGlen]

No, it's called common sense. What do I care if other people delude each other in religions? You aren't going to be able to stop it, I'm not going to be able to stop it, as long as it benefits society overall, and a religion with strong morals does just that, I don't give two shits.

Then don't falsely claim ridiculous shit like that the american revolution worked because of christianity. So much of your shit has been shot down without retort on your part you seem to be just slinging shit against the wall to see what sticks.

[Empty Pockets]

Actually, cooperation is a natural state. Tribes of humans, troops of monkeys, packs of wolves all get along quite well. Getting along with others actually increases your chances at survival.

In small groups, but not on the large scales that have to be dealt with when you're talking about societies and government.

And as for those small groups, just watch how well they work together when it comes down to the line, and it's one person or the other. Cooperation is something we all had to learn in school, but "me first" isn't. "Me first" is instinct, group dynamics is learned.

[Gage Gritshaw]

Then don't falsely claim ridiculous shit like that the american revolution worked because of christianity. So much of your shit has been shot down without retort on your part you seem to be just slinging shit against the wall to see what sticks.

Actually the vast mojority of his reasoning was sound. Some of his facts may not have been spot on, so to speak, but his reasoning was very sound.

[Dread_Og]

Yet people still feel empathy and compassion for the suffering of those outside of their 'social circle.' It's something that has been hardwired by evolution. I've heard it explained, but I'd just give a piss poor regurgitation of it, so I won't bother.

[Empty Pockets]

Then don't falsely claim ridiculous shit like that the american revolution worked because of christianity. So much of your shit has been shot down without retort on your part you seem to be just slinging shit against the wall to see what sticks.

For so much of my "shit" being shot down you seem to be running on empty when it comes to logical responses.

Let me rephrase; strong moral ethics made the American Revolution work. Christianity helped with that. No, christianity didn't make the rev work, but the moral aspects of that religion and their impact on many of the founders did.

[Threven]

Given by God? Can you prove that?
Look at the world ask people who have read bible about end times and how it compares to now if its not given by God then none of it will happen thats a good example, but I'm going to assume you'll just blow what I said off and continue ranting.



Have you seen God recently to prove this? Next time you do, please take a picture for me.

Yeah to see God in any of Gods glory would kill me in the flesh.



Yes, it is intended to control the masses.

Nope its not congrats on repeating yourself.


If you can disprove it show me otherwise. Stop spouting off that I am just guessing and actually validate something.

Sorry I have a written text dating back longer then your guess, but hey if it makes you feel better they all could have been lying back then about what happened in the past.



Yeah, we'll make a date for lunch. You show up with your God, I'll show up with my aliens.

Awesome can't wait!



Aside from the fact its a load of donkey crap? Nope, no problem, glad we agree.

Aside from you spouting a bunch of donkey crap I'm glad we agree.



I only use it where its necessary.


Go learn your definitions conceited characteristic of false pride; having an exaggerated sense of self-importance; "a conceited fool"; "an attitude of self-conceited arrogance

Let me tell you of the first sin I know that was made its called pride satan had it and he was kicked out of heaven, so I try not to have pride or think of myself as super important because its arrogant and foolish, so I'm pretty sure I'm not conceited.



I'm sorry, there are so many different sects of the Christian Cult that can never agree with one another that I often get them confused. My mistake.

It seems a lot of people in the world and on the internet get confused some even call Christians a cult but hey trying to tell everyone seems like a lot of work.

[PirateGlen]

For so much of my "shit" being shot down you seem to be running on empty when it comes to logical responses.

Let me rephrase; strong moral ethics made the American Revolution work. Christianity helped with that. No, christianity didn't make the rev work, but the moral aspects of that religion and their impact on many of the founders did.
It's a false association to anything that is uniquely christian. The common good aspects of religion: justice, compassion, goodness, etc. are not unqiuely christian. It would be more accurate to state that the american revolution was based on enlightenment than anything else, same for the french revolution. Following both the French and American revolution were wars. The primary difference in terms of comparison of success is that America retained their conquered areas.


The intellectual and philosophical developments of that age (and their impact in moral, social, and political reform) aspired toward more freedom for common people based on self-governance, natural rights, natural law, central emphasis on liberty, individual rights, reason, common sense, and the principles of deism. These principles were a revolutionary departure from theocracy, autocracy, oligarchy, aristocracy, and the divine right of kings. The Enlightenment marks a principled departure from the Middle Ages of religious authority, absolute state power, guild-based economic systems, and censorship of ideas toward an era of rational discourse and personal judgment, republicanism, liberalism, naturalism, scientific method, and modernity.

[Floyd]

The dark ages had such great moral and ethical standards. We need more that today. So true.



No America did so well because it had thinkers who thought beyond monarchy and theocracy, who's ideas were based on naturalistic moral principles rather than divine ones.

That and slavery...

:ninja:

[Gage Gritshaw]

Look at the world ask people who have read bible about end times and how it compares to now if its not given by God then none of it will happen thats a good example, but I'm going to assume you'll just blow what I said off and continue ranting.


So let me get this straight. You want me to ask "people", humans, about the existence and validity of the Christian God. Yes, I'm sure that will yield results that can not be contested. *Laugh*




Yeah to see God in any of Gods glory would kill me in the flesh.


What a nice fail safe for never being able to prove your point.



Nope its not congrats on repeating yourself.


Yes it is, congrats on repeating yourself.


Sorry I have a written text dating back longer then your guess, but hey if it makes you feel better they all could have been lying back then about what happened in the past.


The literary work is actually several different books joined together that were all written over a period of several hundred years. The book wasnt all written at once and as such historians have a fairly difficult time of calculating a true "Written Date" for when the Bible was written, since it has multiple authors that spanned over several lifetimes. In the end the final "copy" that you read today was translated from a Greek version of the old testament and there are multiple translations which actually has led to there being several different sects of the Christian cult. Thats why the Roman Catholic bible will differ from the Baptist bible. They are both written based on the same generalized text but due to translations and additions by different leaders over the course of history, none of them are the same.





Awesome can't wait!


Just let me know when. I'll use the same phone to call the aliens that you use to call Jesus.



Aside from you spouting a bunch of donkey crap I'm glad we agree.


Eye of the beholder.



Go learn your definitions conceited characteristic of false pride; having an exaggerated sense of self-importance; "a conceited fool"; "an attitude of self-conceited arrogance

Let me tell you of the first sin I know that was made its called pride satan had it and he was kicked out of heaven, so I try not to have pride or think of myself as super important because its arrogant and foolish, so I'm pretty sure I'm not conceited.


You believe that you have a direct link to the creator of the universe and that you are made in his image and are his given child.

having an exaggerated sense of self-importance




It seems a lot of people in the world and on the internet get confused some even call Christians a cult but hey trying to tell everyone seems like a lot of work.


Christianity is a cult.

1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

[Empty Pockets]

It's a false association to anything that is uniquely christian. The common good aspects of religion: justice, compassion, goodness, etc. are not unqiuely christian. It would be more accurate to state that the american revolution was based on enlightenment than anything else, same for the french revolution. Following both the French and American revolution were wars. The primary difference in terms of comparison of success is that America retained their conquered areas.


The intellectual and philosophical developments of that age (and their impact in moral, social, and political reform) aspired toward more freedom for common people based on self-governance, natural rights, natural law, central emphasis on liberty, individual rights, reason, common sense, and the principles of deism. These principles were a revolutionary departure from theocracy, autocracy, oligarchy, aristocracy, and the divine right of kings. The Enlightenment marks a principled departure from the Middle Ages of religious authority, absolute state power, guild-based economic systems, and censorship of ideas toward an era of rational discourse and personal judgment, republicanism, liberalism, naturalism, scientific method, and modernity.

Christianity is one of the better examples of a moral religion, at least in the recent years. It's also one of the religions I'm most familiar with as well as one of the largest, which is the reason I used it so much in this discussion.

If you want to go deeper into the french revolution, there are a number of good books out there. I'm a sociology major, not a history one, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't come up with a list of them immediately, but if you're really interested I could look up some for you.

To make it short, one of the reasons the french revolution went so poorly compared to the american one is because of a lack of unity.

[PirateGlen]

Christianity is one of the better examples of a moral religion, at least in the recent years. It's also one of the religions I'm most familiar with as well as one of the largest, which is the reason I used it so much in this discussion.

If you want to go deeper into the french revolution, there are a number of good books out there. I'm a sociology major, not a history one, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't come up with a list of them immediately, but if you're really interested I could look up some for you.

To make it short, one of the reasons the french revolution went so poorly compared to the american one is because of a lack of unity.

Your familiarity with and the size of christianity does not really mean that christianity had anything to with the american revolution. You could've interchanged any number of other religions or fictitious religions that have co-opted secular morals and it'd be the same thing. What made the revolutions different was the age of enlightenment that has many secular ideas that don't need a dogmatic book to tell them why these ideas are true because the truth of the ideas can be reasoned, not simply accepted.

[Empty Pockets]

Your familiarity with and the size of christianity does not really mean that christianity had anything to with the american revolution. You could've interchanged any number of other religions or fictitious religions that have co-opted secular morals and it'd be the same thing. What made the revolutions different was the age of enlightenment that has many secular ideas that don't need a dogmatic book to tell them why these ideas are true because the truth of the ideas can be reasoned, not simply accepted.

You can reason out an idea, and it can make sense. But doing it is a totally different matter. Just look at my example again of communism. It's logically sound. It ROCKS on paper. It sucks in practice. You could start a small communist society somewhere, preach on it every day, talk about how good working together is and how it helps everybody else out in the long run. But until you give that personal motivation it's not going to lift off the ground.

That's what drives capitalism. That's what drives religion. That's what drives democratic government.

The people that started the french revolution started with great ideals and intentions, but when anarchy started hitting the streets it started falling apart before it began. The vast majority of the people in france, the average people, they didn't have a religion telling them "this is right, do this" and that hurt the revolution in the long run.

I know I'm oversimplifying things, it's a lot more complex than that, but that's the basics.

[Threven]

So let me get this straight. You want me to ask "people", humans, about the existence and validity of the Christian God. Yes, I'm sure that will yield results that can not be contested. *Laugh*

See I told you that you wouldn't even bother.





What a nice fail safe for never being able to prove your point.

Of course you would assume its a fail safe you'd rather have Gods big finger smashing you into the ground before you'd believe God exsisted. The only way you'll be able to get anything from God is if you pray to him and actually have faith in him you can't doubt him.




Yes it is, congrats on repeating yourself.

Good one captain repeat lets do this all day.



The literary work is actually several different books joined together that were all written over a period of several hundred years. The book wasnt all written at once and as such historians have a fairly difficult time of calculating a true "Written Date" for when the Bible was written, since it has multiple authors that spanned over several lifetimes. In the end the final "copy" that you read today was translated from a Greek version of the old testament and there are multiple translations which actually has led to there being several different sects of the Christian cult. Thats why the Roman Catholic bible will differ from the Baptist bible. They are both written based on the same generalized text but due to translations and additions by different leaders over the course of history, none of them are the same.

"The actual books and chapters are credited to various prophets, apostles and disciples. But, the book as a whole was created by an assembly. They wanted to collect the most important Christian writings and histories into a single book that would be enough for any person to have all that they needed to study and understand God's message. They put together the Bible. They did not write it but they made it. Like an editor putting together a book of short stories or essays. There is no one person that wrote the Bible. Although some people say God wrote it this is untrue. The Bible is supposed to contain God's message but most of it is in the words of the people who did the writing. If you accept the notion that Jesus was God in the flesh, then you could say that the words of Jesus were part of what God "wrote." The same would apply to the instances where someone heard the Lord speak to them.

Generally speaking, Christians acknowledge that the exact phrasing was execute by human authors and transcribers, but that all the writing was inspired by God."

its a quote





Just let me know when. I'll use the same phone to call the aliens that you use to call Jesus.

Oh so the aliens have a phone number cool! Makes it sound like your doubting your aliens too.




Eye of the beholder.[/QUOTE]

Glad to see your perspective.




You believe that you have a direct link to the creator of the universe and that you are made in his image and are his given child.

having an exaggerated sense of self-importance

We went throught this already yes I believe this but you make it sound like I'm going to turn into some glorious entity that has super powers. God made me with a body soul and spirit just like theres God, Holy spirit, and Jesus. I don't think I'm all that important.



Christianity is a cult.

1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.[/QUOTE]

followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
fad: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal; "he always follows the latest fads"; "it was all the rage that season"
followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader
a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false; "it was a satanic cult"

With your definition anything religious is a cult and any kind of veneration makes you part of a cult.

[Yog'Ktar]

The truth is that fanatics of their beliefs can not be dissuaded no matter what truths or doubts are thrown at them.

Why?

"You have to have faith to understand"
"Well I know that God is always right"
"Because God said so"

ad nauseum.

christians and most other religious zealots aren't really worth the time spent arguing with them. They'll do what their "god" tells them, no matter how insane or destructive it could possibly be.

[Shads]

The truth is that fanatics of their beliefs can not be dissuaded no matter what truths or doubts are thrown at them.

Why?

"You have to have faith to understand"
"Well I know that God is always right"
"Because God said so"

ad nauseum.

christians and most other religious zealots aren't really worth the time spent arguing with them. They'll do what their "god" tells them, no matter how insane or destructive it could possibly be.

You don't have to be a christian zealot to suffer from a severe case of "bad faith". Kudos to K. Marx for that one.

[wertyn]

op sucks !!! op you suck

[Yog'Ktar]

It's true for any belief system, religious or otherwise. However, this topic is about christianity being a fairytale.

You can be a zealot about something as retarded as having mustard AND mayonnaise on a sandwich just as easily as christianity.

It's all a matter of opinions and shouldn't be blown out of proportions like it is. The sad part is that this "end of the world" most organized religions spout will probably occur, and not because of any event in their holy text.

It'll be nuclear missiles launched in the name of god that will end humanity.

[Threven]

It's true for any belief system, religious or otherwise. However, this topic is about christianity being a fairytale.

You can be a zealot about something as retarded as having mustard AND mayonnaise on a sandwich just as easily as christianity.

It's all a matter of opinions and shouldn't be blown out of proportions like it is. The sad part is that this "end of the world" most organized religions spout will probably occur, and not because of any event in their holy text.

It'll be nuclear missiles launched in the name of god that will end humanity.

Nukes for Jesus! lol

[Yog'Ktar]

Hehe. Laugh it up! Just remember that your donations to your local church will one day fund a supreme fanatic that will achieve power somewhere.

And then.... Boom!

[Threven]

Hehe. Laugh it up! Just remember that your donations to your local church will one day fund a supreme fanatic that will achieve power somewhere.

And then.... Boom!

For now my church donations go to youth centers and fixing the church, but you're right if I dream big we can have half the world nuked in no time!

[shadowy]

The people that started the french revolution started with great ideals and intentions, but when anarchy started hitting the streets it started falling apart before it began. The vast majority of the people in france, the average people, they didn't have a religion telling them "this is right, do this" and that hurt the revolution in the long run.

I know I'm oversimplifying things, it's a lot more complex than that, but that's the basics.

You do know that france was a catholic country even then, what's this about them not having a religion?

[Rombethor]

Lucas Buck:
We are one galaxy among billions upon billions of other galaxies. Our galaxy is actually very small compared to the vast majority of other galaxies. Do you honestly believe that of the billions upon billions of galaxies that the planet Earth was the only planet with the right conditions to support life and that of all the life on the planet Earth that the Human race is the chosen biological entity in the Universe.


Not forgetting that people two thousand years ago had no idea there were other galaxies and thus the books were written without any clue to today's technology! Didn't God foresee the technological uprising of today and decide to include a few words on it? Nope, then the bible is probably outdated even by God's standards... :sly:

Also I'd like to point out that Christians in my experience don't seem to like questioning anything and leave all the blame up to their God, which seems to be what sets atheists/agnostics apart from them.

[Yog'Ktar]

When I went to chruch, I was often told, "not to question god." It seems that the majority of those in the faith don't like asking questions.

[Threven]

Not forgetting that people two thousand years ago had no idea there were other galaxies and thus the books were written without any clue to today's technology! Didn't God foresee the technological uprising of today and decide to include a few words on it? Nope, then the bible is probably outdated even by God's standards... :sly:

Dan. 12:4.
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Heres a couple of words that you asked for.


Also I'd like to point out that Christians in my experience don't seem to like questioning anything and leave all the blame up to their God, which seems to be what sets atheists/agnostics apart from them.

A lot of times Christians don't question what Gods doing either because they aren't really Christians or they're to lazy to care.

[tsalin]

OP, show us on the doll where the bad christian touched you

[laquetch]

:eek: please stop. :bang:

[tsalin]

Threven, what is that special thing about The Bible which convinces you beyond all doubt that The Bible is the singular truth of the creator of space and time? What is the special ingredient that makes you believe in Christianity, in your opinion?

[joshboli80]

I personally say I am a christian, I believe, (and think is it plausible that God is the creator of the universe) and I also think that He is a personal God that cares about each individual person

That being said I dont think that the bible is THE WORD OF GOD. I do think much of it was isnpired by God, but most of the old testament is a history book, written from a bias point of view. Historically speaking many events in the old testament are proven to have taken place, but I dont think it is entirely possible the people who wrote some of the things in the old testament embellished a bit.

I guess my point is that there are many christians who believe in God, and believe that living by the rules he set forth (whether you believe he set them forth or not you know generally what is write or wrong without them) is the path to living a happy life. However they do not blindly follow whatever their priest says, and think that anyone who says you are not to question God does not know God at all.

If you dont believe in God thats fine, christians have done a fine job giving people reasons not to, but I would say if you dont try to live by the basics rules of a christian life, (put other people first, take care of those in need, dont lie cheat steal) and it will enhance your life. I believe that is what God wants for everyone and isnt as concerned that we focus on him so much as living well.

well sorry for ranting to anyone who took the time to read this, and sorry for my horrible spelling

[Threven]

Threven, what is that special thing about The Bible which convinces you beyond all doubt that The Bible is the singular truth of the creator of space and time? What is the special ingredient that makes you believe in Christianity, in your opinion?

Can't say its just one thing for example Israel was said to return and they have even after getting into a ton of fights they can't be beat even when all the surrounding countries attacked they failed miserably against Israel even lost land to Israel. If I have to say anything it would have to be bible prophecies is what got me started.

[Rombethor]

Thank you Threven :) Although it's a bit sketchy I do think...

I personally think God is a possibility. But it's also possible that the universe as we know it is just some dust in the ear of a giant space monkey... So I like to question these things :p

[tsalin]

Can't say its just one thing for example Israel was said to return and they have even after getting into a ton of fights they can't be beat even when all the surrounding countries attacked they failed miserably against Israel even lost land to Israel. If I have to say anything it would have to be bible prophecies is what got me started. But the jews were the ones who were really expecting (and promised by God) the return of Israel. After all, the prophecies of the return of Israel are from the old testament books of the jewish faith (Ezekiel, Isaiah), not the new testament books of christianity.

What makes you sure that the return of Israel has to do with christianity rather than judaism?

[tsalin]

I guess my point is that there are many christians who believe in God, and believe that living by the rules he set forth (whether you believe he set them forth or not you know generally what is write or wrong without them) is the path to living a happy life. However they do not blindly follow whatever their priest says, and think that anyone who says you are not to question God does not know God at all.

If you dont believe in God thats fine, christians have done a fine job giving people reasons not to, but I would say if you dont try to live by the basics rules of a christian life, (put other people first, take care of those in need, dont lie cheat steal) and it will enhance your life. I believe that is what God wants for everyone and isnt as concerned that we focus on him so much as living well.

well sorry for ranting to anyone who took the time to read this, and sorry for my horrible spelling Living a good life is a nice goal to have, but Christianity does not have a monopoly on morality. The Golden Rule ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") of reciprocity was developed by other contemplatives (Buddha, Confucius, and others) at least five hundred years before Christ. There is nothing particularly special about Christianity; it just seems special and true to westerners because it is so strong in our culture (especially in the U.S.). The main factor in determining the faith of an individual is the location in which they were raised and live; truth does not enter the equation.

[Kelt]

Think about what you’re devoting you live to. Books that apply to the people of the time they were written in. People made up stories to whatever made sense and made justifications for doing whatever that "needed" to be done. I loved reading the book Genesis or at least parts of it because it’s a very interesting story and anyone that believes these writings blindly should not be allowed to exist. An example of justification for killing at those times after Abraham was the cult of Ba'al and the influences it had in Jewish courts. The Jewish people hated all polytheistic and pagan beliefs like the cult of Ba'al so they killed and purged their cities of this religion because they weren’t worshiping the one true god. So by this logic, I should walk into a Hindu temple yell "Die you pagan bastards" kill them all and raze the temple.

The other main reason of religion was to rationalize good things and bad things. Saying that “Oh I’ve been good so god helps me yay" or” I have sinned and now its bad". Its to keep people in check, I highly believe that before the times of courts in the land of Canaan that if people didn’t have this fear and these code of religious law then Judaism would be a very different religion and Christianity might have not been the same as well. One other important thing about rationalization, the Israelites (Jews, Jewish people etc... so many ways of saying im just trying to be semi- PC) had a rooted belief that Jerusalem was gods gift and because god is one and all powerful they will never lose the land god gave to them. Then when Babylonians came and deported their nobles and then again a second time with the bulk of society the Israelites felt disillusioned and confused about why god didn’t protect them. Then all of a sudden prophets came and called the Jewish people sinners and they deserved to have the land taken from them. Its ironic when a big events such as this happens the "voice of god" comes down and says " Oh yeah... we meant to do that, it was part of gods plan so don’t worry, keep worshipping and following all our rules".

So religion wasn’t bad way back then in B.C.E. It caused stability, a unification of many different peoples. Religion paved the way for aesthetics and it unlocked human minds on the subject of art, culture, education, law, social structure, a progressive community and guide of how to act. Lately though religion causes more negative and unproductive activity, it holds science and many interesting topics in biology back. In a sense you can say we tapped all the water out of the well of Religion and all we are getting back is dry sand and rock and it’s about time we move on. Religion is an outdated institution, and that is not insulting, it means religion was our foundation for human societies but we should shed it and grow to bigger and better things, I hear corporations and governments are trying to control us as much as religion has, let’s give them a try.

[Gloomrender]

Let's put it this way.

When the constitution was founded, a radically new concept was introduced in its writing. Until this point, government was almost universally depentant on "good people" ruling justly "for the good of everybody", which inevitably lead to corruption as the people in control had no reason to do the will of the people, instead using their power for their own benefit. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all.

The entire system of divided powers and checks and balances, instead of relying on "good people" putting aside their ambitions, it harnessed those ambitions. With the dividing of power, ambitious individuals kept themselves in check by competing with each other, forced to depend on each other and divide power between each other.

Communism is an awesome concept in theory. But it doesn't work. Why?

Because of our basic survival instinct. That's why. I know some people that used to live in hippy communes, and instead of the harmonic utopia they are supposed to be, with everybody working together for their own good, it ends up with 80% of the people doing almost nothing and the other 20% carrying the load.

It's human nature to NOT do something without a direct benefits. One of the things that made religion work so well is, instead of a plain list of "do this, don't do this, and if everybody does this we'll all be better off", there's that direct reward in it. Be it the 70 virgins, heaven, nirvana, or just plain not roasting in hell forever, there's that selfish personal reason.

One of the concerns with total cultural freedom from religion is that the human race (or at least most of it) isn't evolved enough to handle working for other people's good instead of their own. It's like a superhero movie - x-men, for example. If that were to really happen, with random people everywhere getting supernatural and almost undefeatable powers, it could very well be the end of the race, because humanity isn't evolved enough to handle that kind of power.

I know I'm probably going to get flamed to death over this, but that's why I see religion (or at least peaceful religions) as a necessary evil. I don't expect anybody here to agree with me, but from what I've studied and seen, it's the best conclusion I can make unless somebody can come up with a good reason why I'm wrong with plain logical explanations. Humanity is incapable of fairly governing itself when the only direct reward is to slightly increase life for everybody. It's too easy to steal a little on the side, to cheat, to benefit yourself. You're not going to see the results yourself after all.

I think I understand what you're saying to a large extent, but I don't see how this connects with the principles of the founding fathers. I see the middle class, rights, freedoms, and liberties, justice, and equality as their values. And I think most of these are at odds with many fundamental religious principles.

"The entire system of divided powers and checks and balances, instead of relying on "good people" putting aside their ambitions, it harnessed those ambitions. With the dividing of power, ambitious individuals kept themselves in check by competing with each other, forced to depend on each other and divide power between each other."

What about this is religious?

[Threven]

But the jews were the ones who were really expecting (and promised by God) the return of Israel. After all, the prophecies of the return of Israel are from the old testament books of the jewish faith (Ezekiel, Isaiah), not the new testament books of christianity.

What makes you sure that the return of Israel has to do with christianity rather than judaism?

The return has to do with everyone not just people who call themselves Christians, but if your asking why am I not just believing in Judaism is because in the old testament it also says how the Messiah would be born and in the new testament everything came to pass and the messiah was born, so its safe for me to say the new testament can be included with the old testament which makes the bible. Even when the Messiah was around some Jews thought he would smite the Romans and give Israel back to the Jews he didn't, instead he took the sins of Jews and Gentiles so they all can believe in him and have there sins forgiven so now that God has brought back Israel it effects everyone and tells them more events will soon come.

[IthroZada]

The return has to do with everyone not just people who call themselves Christians, but if your asking why am I not just believing in Judaism is because in the old testament it also says how the Messiah would be born and in the new testament everything came to pass and the messiah was born, so its safe for me to say the new testament can be included with the old testament which makes the bible. Even when the Messiah was around some Jews thought he would smite the Romans and give Israel back to the Jews he didn't, instead he took the sins of Jews and Gentiles so they all can believe in him and have there sins forgiven so now that God has brought back Israel it effects everyone and tells them more events will soon come.

So how bout them unicorns and giants?

[Threven]

So how bout them unicorns and giants?

Oh the creations of the Nephilim and the Unicorns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Elasm062.jpg) yeah sorry to tell but they died.

[Threven]

Well guys its fun chatting but I'm going to head out bye.

[ZeroFX]

There's a passage I got memorized.. ..seems appropriate for this situation:

Ezekiel 25:17
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness..

..for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.

..and I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.

..and you will know my name is The Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.

[Derkoth]

Lucas Buck:

We are one galaxy among billions upon billions of other galaxies. Our galaxy is actually very small compared to the vast majority of other galaxies. Do you honestly believe that of the billions upon billions of galaxies that the planet Earth was the only planet with the right conditions to support life and that of all the life on the planet Earth that the Human race is the chosen biological entity in the Universe.

Someone was forced to watch one too many Carl Sagen space traveler programs during science class?

[Butcher]

I don't understand why people like you get so fired up. If you don't believe in religion then don't believe it - but to waste your time writing novels like this is pointless.

Easy tiger.

My exact thoughts.
Thats why I think atheism is just another religion.

[SilverMage]

You athiest fanatics are way worse then religious fanatics. You show such insecurity if someone believes in something anything you don't that you respond in the same ways you complain about religions. Aggresive, little evidence backing non existence after death, and usually angry and rude.
Even the ones that keep the emotions out of their arguements usually show all the signs of fanaticism in their posts.
Who cares what anyone else believes or doesn't? Why waste your time caring so much about controlling the way other people view creation, after death or spirituality.
I'd give you my opinion about it but what would be the point?
No one is open to listening to anyone else. They hear only their own views, minds and data. Thats more the problem in the world then who is right or wrong.
This species hasn't even learned how to talk to each other properly. Their is no way either side has got it totally correct.
That would be impossible because this species doesn't know how to grow up.
They are to busy looking up blaming every bad thing they do on anything and anyone they can pin it down on.
Everyone should learn how to be responsible and sane first before anyone gives any kind of advice one way or the other.
Athiest ..screen shot or it didn't happen. Religious fanatics..Treat others as you would have them treat you.

How about all you super fanatics try and get step one straight first before you think you have any right to tell anyone how to think or believe.

Learn how to listen to each other. Both sides have very valuable information to share. Finding that should be every human beings main goal in life but looking around I know it is not.
Being right is.
Good luck with that

[Zarina]

No one is open to listening to anyone else. They hear only their own views, minds and data. Thats more the problem in the world then who is right or wrong.
This species hasn't even learned how to talk to each other properly. Their is no way either side has got it totally correct.
That would be impossible because this species doesn't know how to grow up.

More: "This species, whilst having acquired a great deal of fluff that we like to call evolved civilisation, is still (and will no doubt always be) susceptible to instinctive tribalistic patterns of behaviour, which includes aggressive conquest and self-defense techniques."

Unfortunately, it would take a worldwide revolution of thought to get humans to cooperate on a significant enough level to truly draw our species forwards. Just look at CERN and the LHC, and the sheer amount of fearmongering and religiously based stigma that it has attracted.

[SilverMage]

We are struggling from animal and instinct to Civilization and control...Im honestly surprised sometimes we got this far.
There our days I am ashamed to be human(for my part as well)..other times one person here or their does something just a certain way..defies instinct..defies labels and just becomes for amoment something amazing.
It is for those moments I hope for my own kind and can feel some pride.
It is in the shadows when someone without reason or being seen reaches out a hand to care without thought of return I see for a moment what we are meant to become.
When we see the biggest picture I think our instincts may change. In the big picture we have more time, we have a need to be kind to others. Our instincts would back kindness and compassion when our instincts think its best for our survival.
So long as we see only this period of time, only this body that matters, only our own needs while we can get them met being focused on we will never get control of our selves.
Before we ever worry about if a God exists or not we should try harder on our own hearts.
I have heard it said you cannot love anyone else until you love your self. Once you do love will find you.
So long as this species doesn't love itself it's brothers and sisters how can they even waste time wondering if they can love the universe or it in return.
Become love and love will find you. become empathy and it will spread. become kind and you will feel pride.
Control your instincts and we could change the world.

[SilverMage]

On a side note I would die to defend the freedom of anyone to completely disagree with me.
I didn't want to come off as posting a sermon if I did I apologize.
If your beliefs system said the whole world should be at war I would not agree but I would die to defend your right to say it and express that view.

[Empty Pockets]

I think I understand what you're saying to a large extent, but I don't see how this connects with the principles of the founding fathers. I see the middle class, rights, freedoms, and liberties, justice, and equality as their values. And I think most of these are at odds with many fundamental religious principles.

"The entire system of divided powers and checks and balances, instead of relying on "good people" putting aside their ambitions, it harnessed those ambitions. With the dividing of power, ambitious individuals kept themselves in check by competing with each other, forced to depend on each other and divide power between each other."

What about this is religious?

Checks and balances, instead on relying on people doing the right thing out of good will, used their ambitions to make sure the right thing happens.

I was comparing that to religion and how they give that personal reward thing, the 70 virgins or heaven or whatever, as a reason to behave is a socially moral way instead of just their good will. One of the advantages about religions is a good christian/buddhist/ect is (most) of them believe against stealing, against killing, ect, while a non-religious person has no personal reason to be socially conscious. That's fine for a lot of decent people, but when I see these preachers on TV "converting" hundreds of drug dealers and criminals, I gotta say, if that really gets some people to behave maturely in society, to stop selling schoolkids drugs or stop stealing or whatever, I don't have a prob.

[Empty Pockets]

You do know that france was a catholic country even then, what's this about them not having a religion?

Wasn't after the revolution though, other than the nobility the vast majority of the people that were killed or forced to leave france were religious. Unfortunately that also included most of the educated people since they had been taught in catholic colleges and schools