Why the Alignment System Doesn't Suck

[Lysandor]

Compromise. DFO is going to feature non consentual PvP (aka PK). Obviously this is taking the safety level of the game and dropping it down a well.

Carebears want absolutes, they want things easy. This includes both sides of the whole PvP deal. The people that hate PvP so much because it will hurt their powergamer schedule, or even their pride that their character isn't a big hero, and on the other side, those players who want to be able to kill anyone anywhere with no lasting consequences.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

So we come to a happy medium. The Alignment System let's the Carebears on one side have their PvP, without totally sentencing the Carebears on the other side to eternal death.

It allows everyone more freedom, without totally making the game in any one group's favor.

Consequences are good. The Alignment System is about the only non RP way to add the element of law to DFO. The real 'hardcore' players will sit confortable doing what they do, but not with the total freedom to do it absolute.

Face it. Many players spend their game time trying to ruin it for other people. Few people role play in a similar enough style to make abolishing something like the Alignment System a good idea.

The Carebears on one side are balanced with the Carebears on the other side.

PvPers who call for the removal of the Alignment System are as much a Carebear as the people who want consentual PvP. The true hardcore players are the ones who work with consequences and accept them for their actions.

[Red-Eye]

Hail the middle way! or something...

I agree almost completly. I'm a quester/kingdom builder player type (if player types exists). I want PvP and I want someone else to craft for me :-P

Good statement. Lately I have been really annoyed at these -H

[Kaneski]

Agree with #1 completely. I think DFO will manage to archieve it, at least for a while. At some point, either side of the pendulum will inevitably sway the balance. The 2 pitfalls are: the PvPers growing powerful enough to more or less ignore the penalty (ie. Kill the city guards whenever they show up) and the 'afraid-to-die' amassing enough firepower to keep themselves safe (namely, powerful NPC guards). Heh, now that I think about this, ideally, these 2 groups should be put in the same room to balance each other out from time to time :D.

There is a "god-like" thread somewhere and if I recall, the odds of becoming textbook "

[Saeren]

I also agree. A game like this needs many checks and balances, without which it won't be balanced.

[Shakespeare]

As to a pk being a carebear, ya lost me a bit there as i was a pk on pac in UO. But like everyone else i agree with the alignment system. It seems to be a compromise that everyone can live with and live well. Much can be said for walking the road less traveled.

shakes

(was Evildead, Ulrich, DrNuttbutter, Nautica on pac... if i knew ya... HI!)

[CowsMoo]

It worked OK in UO, it'll be fine here...

[FlossDragon]

Compromise. DFO is going to feature non consentual PvP (aka PK). Obviously this is taking the safety level of the game and dropping it down a well.



I think it is dropping it right down something other than a well.

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me. The PvP flag system works fine--if you want to PvP you can. you just can't abuse other players.

Why can't you see the obvious?

[Murray]

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me.


There it is, you think you're special, you should be able to go anywhere you want, get into anyone's face you want and they shouldn't be able to touch you unless you say it's OK. So if you're wandering through the woods, alone, picking flowers or whatever, and you stumble into a group of bandits, they should have written permission to be able to kill you and take your stuff?

That's exactly why people turn away from games like L2, because you can't kill off the foolish or get rid of the annoying punks of the world without taking severe character penalties.

The Alignment system is pleanty harsh enough. The bandits who constantly kill the innocent will be flagged criminals and evil. Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.

[Constantine]

I think it is dropping it right down something other than a well.

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me. The PvP flag system works fine--if you want to PvP you can. you just can't abuse other players.

Why can't you see the obvious?

The whole PvP flag system may work for other games, but the whole premise of Darkfall is to allow characters the freedom to do what they want as long as they are willing to face the consequences.

Not to mention that just because Darkfall follows a more open PvP structure than the majority of the MMORPG market right now doesn't mean that there necessarily be more "abuse of other players" than there are in other games.

There are other ways to ruin the gaming experience for players than killing them. For example:

A highly skilled character walks into a popular newbie area and repeatedly everything that spawns right in front of the new players so they can't gain skill.

A player follows you around town and annoys you with stupid questions and calls you every stupid name in the book plus a few they made up on the spot.

A player pretending to be a merchant sells you defective goods or doesn't pay the amount they promised.

Ad naseum...

Well these kinds of "abuse" are in games regardless of what kind of PvP system a game has. What exactly do you plan to do about it in a consensual PvP world? Sit around for 4 hours and wait for a GM to a) slap the "griefer" on the hands or b) tell you they can't help you?

If you don't want to be bothered by griefers, the only way you're going to avoid them is to stay off the Internet and MMORPGs completely. Some "flag" isn't going to keep them away.

Walking out into the world and getting killed by another player is not "abuse" it is risk. Everybody who understands what Darkfall is and is excited about the game's release understands that the game will allow players more freedom to play how they want, but its not without its risks.

If you are getting repeatedly killed by the same player over and over again, more than likely you are allowing yourself to be griefed. If you played the original Diablo on the BattleNet you're well aware that cheating and pks ran rampant in the games. It always boggled my mind though on how many people, once killed would allow their attacker to repeatedly ressurect and then kill them again as if they had no other alternative when you could easily release to town or go somewhere else.

Players who follow predictable patterns, leave town at the same time every night, hunt in the exact same spots every day and find themselves killed by the same character need to realize that you can solve the problem on your own. Take a different route. Find a different hunting spot. Hunt during a different part of the day. Hire a bodyguard or an assassin. These things might seem like an annoying, but you might stumble across something new and exciting while exploring or you might meet new friends and allies while looking to hire a bodyguard.

There are other benefits of an open PvP system other than the increased freedom. It has added social and economical benefits on the game. I could dig into that entire area as well and I have done so before in previous posts of mine, however it is more important to note that a great many people in these forums do see the "obvious".

We are tired of the current trend in MMORPG games that place unrealistic restrictions on our characters that separates us from the other players so much that we feel isolated and stifled. We want to be able to take action when and how we want and make our own decisions. If somebody annoys us or insults our honor, we want more options than calling a GM to handle the problem for us. If somebody steals from us we want the chance to be able to retrieve our belongings. At the same time, if we feel like running around like a madman and killing everybody who we think looks at us funny then we can do that too. You won't make many friends that way, but its your choice.

If you want to play in a MMORPG while a living thriving world is going on around you, yet you "don't want to be bothered" then not only is Darkfall not the right game for you, but no online game is right for you.

[Shakespeare]

That's exactly why people turn away from games like L2, because you can't kill off the foolish or get rid of the annoying punks of the world without taking severe character penalties.

Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.

1.) Yes, I agree you should be able to kill he retarded if you want to
2.) L2 is not a game to be admired for gameplay anyway you look at it
3.) As far as Johnny DoGooder... rofl

[Garth_Dax]

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me.

This is the part that befuddles a lot of people on this forum I think. The "don't bother me" part. Player interaction is what a lot of folks want from DF. Yes ... what you may call "griefing" is part of that. So are trade, conflict, cooporation, fighting, PK'ing, warfare, sieging, alliances, politics, etc. So much of that player interaction is rendered moot and impotent if players can easily flip a switch and say, "Naa naa ... I'm not playing so you can't touch me!"

Trammel turned UO into a single player game with other people online. Any other type of PvP switch will have the same type of effect.

Now don't get me wrong, single player games can be fun and have their appeal, but that's not what DF is going to be about.

Why can't you see the obvious?

[FlossDragon]

The whole PvP flag system may work for other games,

Not to mention that just because Darkfall follows a more open PvP structure than the majority of the MMORPG market right now doesn't mean that there necessarily be more "abuse of other players" than there are in other games.

There are other ways to ruin the gaming experience for players than killing them.

Well these kinds of "abuse" are in games regardless of what kind of PvP system a game has.

If you don't want to be bothered by griefers, the only way you're going to avoid them is to stay off the Internet and MMORPGs completely.


At the same time, if we feel like running around like a madman and killing everybody who we think looks at us funny then we can do that too. You won't make many friends that way, but its your choice.



Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer. These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

[Kurgan]

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Will you please just leave mate, and throw your ignorant posts somewhere else. I'm so sick and tired of you thinking what you say is the absolute truth and talking bollocks about the cummunity here.

[Murray]

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers.

See now, I like open PvP and loot... I'm not a duper, a hacker and rarely talk trash (occasionally when provoked)... I enjoy the thrill of wondering what's around the next bend. When you add predictability to the game, it reduces the thrill. I still get an adrenaline rush when I get into a PvP battle... PvM just doesn't do it for me. If I had to accept a challenge before some group of nuts attacked me, well, they'd lose the benefit of surprise, I'd be able to say no if I thought I had no chance and then I'd have to deal with 15 minutes of "n00b"/wimp flames/trash talking for not taking them on.

Hackers and Dupers are out to ruin any game. Wether to make an extra buck by ebaying money or just to feel good about themselves. PvP and open loot have nothing to do with attracting more of them. Heck, if the game has a smaller player base as you think it would, there'd be less of a market to attract the dupers.

[kehmesis]

This is a very good post. But I think you might be missing the point some people are trying to make (I'm totally for the allignement system, just trying to be the devil's advocate here). The fact that we don't really know how the system works yet, and that we mostly base ourselves on UO and on speculations, it makes us fear what is to come. We make up many scenarios in our head and try to figure if the system will do a good job or not with these scenarios. So it's about whether the system is solid and strong, not if it should be there or not.

I know some people don't want any system at all, but I *think* it's a very small minority, and they should read your post carefully for some very good points.

[Septus]

I really want to understand what makes players like you tick. Because it certainly ISN'T online gaming. I think a player like you would be far more pleased with Bioware's NWN than a real MMORPG.

MMORPG's have one advantage, a large number of people in one world. When you have any sort of flag like you suggest, you pretty much make all the servers and maintenance costs moot, because you only want to play with certain people anyway.

Darkfall is taking the route most MMORPG's should take. Incorporate sheep, wolves, and all the in-between into one game, and create a structure of checks and balances to keep each group in check. If in fact all you want is consentual PvP and the like, go play EQ2. Let the "griefers, hackers, and dupers" as you put it, have their game, and we'll see how it turns out. I know what kind of player you are. You want a huge world WITHOUT danger (mobs != danger, they are far too easy) and EQ2, I suppose, would be just right for you.

[Jangang]

Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer. These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

Why are you here? You obviously are not cut out for the world of Darkfall.

Why come to a game that has been designed for YEARS around 1 concept, when that concept is not compatable with your playstyle? That concept being FULL AND COMPLETE PLAYER FREEDOM, INCLUDING FULL PVP, AND FULL LOOT!!!

Their are Soooooooo many games out, or coming out that have what you so obviously desire but you choose to come here and attempt to ruin the ONE GAME that caters to the PvP crowd. Fer shame!

You are no better then us, yet you act as if you are somehow above those you consider "problematic". This is the worst character trait possible in humanity imo. Your type has ruined game after game after game... You find a game, ruin it, then leave when the game is not fun all the while complaining about how boring the game is. Then you find another game w/ great potential, whine complain and get it ruined then leave because its so boring... Rinse, wash, repeat, over, and over, and over again... Ever wonder why the games aren't fun? Let me fill you in, because you ruined them.



Oh, and BTW the worst trash talk I've ever experianced in games comes from the mouths of carebear pansies like yourself. PvP'rs might talk a little shit, but carebears get personal, and go so far as to wish death on you, or your family. They make me sick!

[Garth_Dax]

This is the worst character trait possible in humanity imo.
Well Demonica, let's not go off the deep end or anything ... I mean ... the worst character trait possible in humanity?! hehe :p

[Mordare]

Flossdragon...

Seriously, if you don't want full open pvp and full loot, THEN LEAVE. This game is not for you.

[Peter]

I can see both sides of the arguement. The only MMORPG I played for more than a week was UO... I played that for like 3 years from a little bit after the very beginnings of the game. I support open PVP 100% because without risk Online Games are BORING... However, I have noticed (especially on the topic of pickable/destroyable housing) that there are a lot of people who will be jumping on this game for the soul purpose of ruining everyone elses time...

But when I look back on my days in Ultima, there were tons of people who pissed me off while I was out adventuring and I remember fighting back and forth (not argueing, but continiously ressing and trying to hunt eachother down) with these people for much of the day. These were the same immature people im reading about on this thread, and I thought they were stupid myself. But at least I WAS HAVING FUN fighting these guys. And I knew that everyday when I went hunting or whatever there was a possibility that something interesting would happen.

Then Trammel came along... and all you could do was hunt liche's and slay dragons... and there was never any risk and it all became so routine and mechanical it became boring. So then you didnt even want to hunt anymore, so you just stand around the bank or Guild HQ and wait for guildmembers to come buy so you can shoot the shit... and at that point is when you cancel your subscription...

So even though I hate griefers(reds/theives) as much as the next guy... at least they fill the world with a sense of risk and adventure. At least they give me a target to fight so I feel like I did something interesting and didnt waste my 15 bucks a month. As long as I can't be screwed over when I'm not online, let the griefers do what they want....


so I can kill them after.

[FlossDragon]

Why are you here?

Why come to a game that has been designed for YEARS around 1 concept, when that concept

Your type has ruined game after game after game...
Ever wonder why the games aren't fun? Let me fill you in, because you ruined them.



I don't know you, so don't take my constructive criticism directly.

I am not certain what your type is, but under the guise of making a game "free" certain types of players are intent on ruining them for everyone. They seem to have surfaced here and be in love with Darkfall. I am surprised anyone would take exception to the basic tenent that griefers tend to be dupers, hackers, and sploiters. If anyone has ruined mmorpgs it is people like-minded to those who are posting here about how players can be freed from game-imposed restraints.

Basically the in-game restraints are like internet fire-walls--they keep chaos at bay. The same reason you have forum moderators--to halt thousands of inane posts that spam a board. I don't think it is too much of a generalization to say that the players who want looting and open PvP are the anti-social element in mmorpgs that ruins them for most other players. II agree with many of you, we certainly can get 60 thousand reasonable roll-palyers onto Darkfall -- but we are also going to get 2 or 3 thousand people intent on distruption, griefing and hacking.

We can stop them, but we need to eleminate open PvP and full looting.

Just what is the problem with the PvP flag. It never seemed to ruin games before? Even in games with the pvP flag you only see about 5% of the player base using it anyway.

This is only a "big deal" to a select minority intent on ruining Darkfall for the rest of us.

[Ruim]

Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer. These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

Why don't we paint with a few broader strokes.... Maybe next time you can dig a little deeper, develop some new stereotypes about people different from you.

I resent your remarks. I complain about EQ. I don't dupe, hack, trash talk, or act like a sociopath. My money's as good as yours. Some people do, but why do you think you're better then them? Their money's as good as yours too, well unless they break the code of conduct.

As much as you think they ruin the game for you, I'm thinking right now you want to ruin the game for me.

I've seen Wink in action in SB (he's on these boards too), and I remember a large complaint was his time spent harassing groups on newbie isle. A place where no PvP is possible. I also remember a number of threats popping up about what would happen if he ever left the safety of newbie isle. You think a flag system will stop someone like him from functioning? They're not the reason Shadowbane is/was struggling. Hell I'd still be playing if they had the technical parts right way back when.

Oh, and of the 8000+ registered members of this board, Wink is only one of them. That's a far cry from 10%.

[Jebsta16]

That's exactly why people turn away from games like L2, because you can't kill off the foolish or get rid of the annoying punks of the world without taking severe character penalties.

The Alignment system is pleanty harsh enough. The bandits who constantly kill the innocent will be flagged criminals and evil. Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.


hmm if im reading your post right, then criminals shouldnt be punished for rpk'ing? well in that case tell our government that because there are some ppl i wouldnt mind pk'ing irl. why wouldnt you be regarded a hero for killing a known murderer? if im reading this post right, i dont see any use of common sense anywhere.... i sure hope this is suppose to be sarcastic and if i did misread or something then i apologize and would be great if you could repraise this..

i think this thread hits the nail on the head. ppl dont want to have to take a hit for being a pk, its a prime example of ppl whinning to have things their way to convience them the most. if this is going to be the case lets just make it easy on ubi and call this shadowbane 2 so they dont have to waste their times with actually making it.
im planning on being a rpk and im all for the allignment system. im just going to be smart and not kill my own race until i can stand on my own 2 feet.
learn to play with what you got, i mean strategy. if your going to be dumb then you do deserve all the hits in the world. i hate how ppl get scared when something may hurt what they are doing. work around it there is always something you can do to get around it. strategy and having to use my head is what makes these kind of game so fun for me. its just like madden, who picks the best team just to win? you pick your favorite team and you figure ways to win. if your the person who always picks the best team that isnt your favorite team then your just a carebear that wants things easy.

[Murray]

I am surprised anyone would take exception to the basic tenent that griefers tend to be dupers, hackers, and sploiters. If anyone has ruined mmorpgs it is people like-minded to those who are posting here about how players can be freed from game-imposed restraints.

Basically the in-game restraints are like internet fire-walls--they keep chaos at bay. The same reason you have forum moderators--to halt thousands of inane posts that spam a board. I don't think it is too much of a generalization to say that the players who want looting and open PvP are the anti-social element in mmorpgs that ruins them for most other players. II agree with many of you, we certainly can get 60 thousand reasonable roll-palyers onto Darkfall -- but we are also going to get 2 or 3 thousand people intent on distruption, griefing and hacking.

We can stop them, but we need to eleminate open PvP and full looting.


Seriously, murder is not griefing. It's a part of the game. If you add restraints, the real griefers will surface and use those restraints to make other players miserable. Once again, the only way to eliminate griefers is to kill them when they get to you. You can't do that in time if the restraints you are advocating are in place. Full Loot works against them because it'll generally be more difficult for an Evil Griefer type to make the friends necessary to re-equip.[/QUOTE]

Just what is the problem with the PvP flag. It never seemed to ruin games before? Even in games with the pvP flag you only see about 5% of the player base using it anyway.

This game does include consequences for murder, for unprovoked PvP. There will be hoardes of "Bounty Hunters" that hunt RPKers, because most people want to be good guys. Open PvP allows people to be as rghteous as they want to be as far as it allows people to be as dastardly as they want to be.

To cite an earlier example I made, how can a small band possible role play as highway bandits if every unsuspecting traveller they jump has to consent to being mugged? How can Johnny Do-Gooder (Encore for Shakes) possible role-play a thief catcher if the bad guys have to consent to his shake-down?

This is only a "big deal" to a select minority intent on ruining Darkfall for the rest of us.

You seem to be the minority here, intent on making this another cookie-cutter safe zone for you and yours....

... and yes, I think it's funny when a band of RPK griefers... well must be exploiter/duper/hackers in Floss's eyes... crashes a wedding which the organizers of thought too special of an event to need proper guarding/security.

It seems to me that you don't want to be responsable for yourself out in the wild.. You want some sort of rules-deity to protect you at all times. Personally I don't want the protection, that isn't fun, it isn't scary, it isn't exciting to kow what to expect. Hell, you may as well make mobs ask your consent to attack you.

[Septus]

No Jebsta, the post you were replying too was talking about Floss Dragon's post, in which he suggests a PvP flag in addition to the Alignment system.

As for Floss Dragon, read the post above yours which talks about Ultima Online. Yes griefers and PK'ers can be "annoying," but they add an element to the game that no NPC can: tue danger and excitement. You like to slay evil and the like Floss Dragon, but the truth is, you're too much of a baby yourself to try and fight evil that can actually fight back. You like to slay monsters with no chance of killing you, and just grouping with friends, and hey, that's fine, but that's what EQ2 is for.

We are in a game where good and evil are taken up by PLAYERS, by HUMAN BEINGS. If you want to fight evil, be prepared, because evil can actually fight back...

[Murray]

hmm if im reading your post right, then criminals shouldnt be punished for rpk'ing? well in that case tell our government that because there are some ppl i wouldnt mind pk'ing irl. why wouldnt you be regarded a hero for killing a known murderer? if im reading this post right, i dont see any use of common sense anywhere.... i sure hope this is suppose to be sarcastic and if i did misread or something then i apologize and would be great if you could repraise this.


I don't think you read any of it right. Criminals will get an evil alignment hit, possibly a murderer flag allowing "good" players to hunt them without worrying about hurting their own alignment status. That is punishment, because the masses only feel comfortable staying within the lines. And, Johnny Do-Gooder (Our Hero) would be getting a good alignment bonus for killing the murderer.

I'm not asking for no penalties for RPKing someone, I'm in agreement with the alignment system and I think it's pleanty. I'm arguing against one person in here who is stricty opposed to open PvP and open Loot.

[Kurgan]

If you add restraints, the real griefers will surface and use those restraints to make other players miserable.

Amen to that. I hope everyone will read that and think about it very well.

[Jebsta16]

I don't think you read any of it right. Criminals will get an evil alignment hit, possibly a murderer flag allowing "good" players to hunt them without worrying about hurting their own alignment status. That is punishment, because the masses only feel comfortable staying within the lines. And, Johnny Do-Gooder (Our Hero) would be getting a good alignment bonus for killing the murderer.

I'm not asking for no penalties for RPKing someone, I'm in agreement with the alignment system and I think it's pleanty. I'm arguing against one person in here who is stricty opposed to open PvP and open Loot.

ok well then my fault. i thought you were trying to support pks and how they shouldnt be punished for pk'ing. i almost had to unequipt my sword and slap you with my leather glove :P

[Fenton]

If the open pvp and the full loot keep all of the whiners away I'm truly thankful for that reason alone. I like a challenge and carebears are not what one would call a challenge. If it doesn't then I'll use the hate chat that will inevitably echo from my victims as a sign I'm doing well. (posted while smiling evilly)

[Raybur Ravenloc]

what i cant figure out is how you make the connection that everyone who likes open PvP is a griefer/anti-social
full PvP simply "allows" people to kill anyone, in most cases there is still order

there are a few crummy 2D MMORPGs (Dransik) with full PvP/loot, what happens in these is clans develope and they kill everyone who isn't part of their clan or allied to it, its not chaos, its war
there are always a handful of greifers in these games, but the worst they can do is kill off a couple of lone travellers before a group of some nearby clan comes and runs them off, kills them and takes everything they stole, then they wind up on KoS lists for town guards, and they cant even bank their stolen goods, or buy supplies, except in certain greafier cities, which makes them even less of a threat in areas farther from these griefer towns

this is what i foresee in DF
lots of player kingdoms constantly trying to destroy their neighbors and claim their land, and the few solo greifers forced to base themselves at some few "evil" kingdoms, limiting the places they can grief to neighboring kingdoms, which would be almost no different than having a warring neighbor who happens to use terror tactics

i very much doubt that full PvP will cause DF to be a huge gankfest of losers who go around wherever they want killing people and saying "i r0xx0rs ju"

[Constantine]

Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. In fact I saw many more immature griefing players during my time playing DAoC than I ever did in my pre-Trammel UO days.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

I will agree that dupers, hackers and cheaters are not welcome in Darkfall. They will ruin the game for everybody. I also read all seven pages of the thread Wink's Shadowbane History and while he honestly admits to a backstabbing and duplicitous history he denied being a cheater and even himself spoke out against it, although he was accused of being a cheater by another poster.

The playstyle of evil RPK, traitor or general troublemaker is not my personal playstyle but I do not feel there should be coded rules in the game to protect the playerbase from them. Restrictions inevitably cause far more problems than they solve. If the playerbase does not want them around, they will form their own guilds and banish them from their cities or take some other action to remove them from the game.

These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

Even so called "evil" guilds have standards and detest cheaters, hackers, liars and those that would betray them. These players are often blacklisted and quickly find it difficult to find any sort of support from any but the most chaotic and socially destructive players. You are probably correct in guessing they make up a very small percentage of the population. If they are cheaters, hopefully the devs will be able to find and ban them. However if they are just social misfits bent on griefing everybody and everyone else around them, the other 99% of the community will ensure that they leave the game or have a very difficult time staying around either through actively pursuing and attacking them or passively refusing to trade or acknowledge them.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

I believe you underestimate your fellow players. I don't think the community will allow a small percentage of griefers to ruin the game. The "good" players will band together against the griefers. The "evil" guilds will either blacklist them and hunt them down. Forcing them to rise to the challenge of surviving in a harsh world where nobody wants them around, and some people actually enjoy that challenge.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

I think that it not only will people be able to role play while having evil and chaotic players around, but that it will make for a much more dynamic and enjoyable role playing environment.

If you wish to venture into a crusade to get the devs to "change their minds" that is your perogative. Do not expect a lot of support as many of us support the current vision the devs have for Darkfall such as the implimentation of an alignment system that makes players deal with the consequences of their actions as opposed to simply coding a rule into the game to prevent players from excersizing any form of free will.

I wish you the best of luck if you continue with your fight. Although if Darkfall ever does change from its actions & consequences philosophy to a more restrictive and enforced playstyle I will be the first to excersize my free will to never, ever play the game.

Thankfully, I don't think it will ever come to that.

[Murray]

ok well then my fault. i thought you were trying to support pks and how they shouldnt be punished for pk'ing. i almost had to unequipt my sword and slap you with my leather glove :P

Careful, you may get flagged as a ... well, nm. :-)

Heck, that brings up a dueling system... I dont' mind consentual PvP systems, as long as they're included on top of the Open system... Say adding Gladiator arenas to towns and allowing duels of honor. There was a thread a month or so ago about an added on arena combat system... Could be fun if it were all player run.

[Septus]

Well the player community generally starts forming their own dueling rituals, ie: spots to go for duels and the like. The only thing that needs to be coded in is a duel command that takes away any alignment hits and maybe allows for insta-res (?).

Players generally can produce their own arenas either within towns, or anywhere they find appropriate, and guard duels with their own friends. (I remember in UO you could duel by the grave yard, and anytime some one tried to interrupt, the "audience" would stop him post haste. I think that any sort of coded arena would be a waste because no one would want to "wait their turn" to duel, it'd just be annoying.

[Garth_Dax]

Well FlossD, this has been on the features page for a long time ... in case you haven't read it ...

[quote]Will Darkfall have safe zones?
There are no safe zones in Darkfall unless the players themselves create them or seek them out. There is no area where a player cannot be attacked by another player.

There is relative safety in numbers and in staying out of harm

[Murray]

Well the player community generally starts forming their own dueling rituals, ie: spots to go for duels and the like. The only thing that needs to be coded in is a duel command that takes away any alignment hits and maybe allows for insta-res (?).


Would be fun for gamblers to have a sort of NPC bookie, but that could easily be taken care of by a third party... I just envision spending an evening at the fights, betting on whomever I want and checking out other people's fighting styles.

[Lysandor]

FlossDragon, I think one of the things you are focusing on (the open PvP) is just one facet of what DFO is hopefully going to be.

The devs main goal is to promote as much freedom in every aspect without limiting the fun.

They dont want to hold our hands, and I dont want them to hold my hand.

Consentual PvP doesnt work...well it doesnt work for people who want fun.

Items and equipment wont be so important that losing them will be a major deathblow to you or your character.

Maybe you wont be big on PvP at first, but I cant imagine anyone not trying it at least once. And if you still hate it, maybe the crafting system is more to your liking.

[Kaneski]

What I find interesting in this (and the other thread) discussion is the underlying assumption that Floss seems to make. Namely, that the PKs/Griefers/Kiddies, however he wants to call them, will ALWAYS be in greater number or ALWAYS be stronger than the character they try to kill. It's as if the griefers will be on top of the ladder of individual character power. A friend of mine got to play L2 closed beta and one of his favourite activities was to dress up in starter gear and hang around newbie areas, waiting for PKs to show up. Then the fun began and he'd almost always come out on top.

And if not character power, then the assumption seems to be that they'll have the better items to sway balance in their favour. While this may be true for loot-based games, where grinding through dungeons eventually gives you the top-end items, it completely falls through in a player-based economy. I remember in early EVE days, a pirate clan had to switch to energy weapons (no ammunition requirement), because their negative reputation (pirate status) made it impossible for them to buy ammo.

And if you're talking about non-combat characters getting slaughtered by griefers, then they know fully what they face when they get out there (out of an area patrolled by guards). If this was the only MMORPG being made, then you'd have a legitimate agrument for trying to protect some players' interests. Otherwise, go play WoW on the carebear server.

[Teth]

What I find interesting in this (and the other thread) discussion is the underlying assumption that Floss seems to make. Namely, that the PKs/Griefers/Kiddies, however he wants to call them, will ALWAYS be in greater number or ALWAYS be stronger than the character they try to kill. Part of the carebear mentality is perpetual victimization. THEY are always the victim, THEY are always suffering, THEY are but pawns at the cruel whims of the griefers, the PKers, the scammers, and what-have-you. And, most importantly, THEY have absolutely no defense against their antagonists whatsoever, and their only succour is to beg the devs to save them.

If they ever stopped thinking of themselves as victims, they might actually get somewhere and find better ways of dealing with issues than just whining for the devs to change facts of game-life they don't like. God forbid that they ever stand up for themselves and try to fight back in a manner that doesn't involve squealing like stuck pigs.

[Sarin]

[QUOTE=FlossDragon]

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.[QUOTE]


Wow in DF you can at least take your own actions into hand for a guy that is griefing. At least you can turn around and knock em dead with maybe a very small alignment hit depending on the circumstances. In these other game you talk about you kill them turn red in the so godly flag system you talk about and now you are the one hosed by the anti grief alert system they have set up, simply because you were getting someone who was grief looting your kills.

Secondly, I am pretty sure most of us here that enjoy open PvP don't really appreciate classified into a group of hackers/cheaters/exploiters. I also see no validity that the player base here are a bunch of flamers, in my eyes I see you as a antagonist trying to provoke the behavior you speak of.

Lastly, I actually see a possilbe few things going on here, you either get a hardon by stirring up the pot ( said this before), or you feel threantened by this game for some reason, meaning you could either be part of a DEV team somewhere or maybe even a Fanboi club that you spoke of in a earlier thread... just a hunch... heres my solution to what you are trying to do here... we'll just simply start ignoring you and not giving you the attention you are looking for by disagrueing with the sole concepts of the game being developed here.

[Mieszko]

The Alignment system is pleanty harsh enough. The bandits who constantly kill the innocent will be flagged criminals and evil. Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.

My only hope is that if a good aligned person attacks a bad aligned person the bad aligned personc an defend himself, and maybe kill the good aligned person without taking a alignment hit. Thats the thing that bugged me the most about L2. A red can't defend himself without going more red.

[geld]

What I enjoy most from any game is the immersion. If I feel like I am the character, in a realistic fantasy world, then I can really start to enjoy the game.
The reason the allignment system is important to me is simple, I want the game to 'feel' as realistic as possible.
Take into account that this is an unrealistic world in itself. There is no pain, there is no death, there is no real purpose for conflict. The allignment system can help with the latter. Without an allignment system, who is your enemy? Are the creatures in the forest/swamp/desert/wherever your enemy? I think not, for they have no identity. Are the opposing race your enemy? without allignment system they are just other players like you with no purpose.
So the result of no allignment system is that people will have no reason for conflict.
The allignment system can create the illusion of purpose because you belong to something bigger. You belong to a race which strives for the one thing all races must strive for, survival.
Players who cause grief and woe upon other members of your race will be cast out, as they should, for this is the nature of survival.

Of course the allignment system is unrealistic in itself, but within a world that is already unrealistic (no death), it is the best solution.

I want the allignment sysem to be as realistic as possible though.
I would prefer if a third party (witness) must be present to view the crime, and that person must live to tell the tale, for the allignment hit to occur. For in reality the dead don't speak, so the victim cannot rise again to tell of the hideous deed.

[Lysandor]

Conflict is never a problem. Even Carebears have teeth.

The only problem with the Alignment system is that people dont quite understands its purpose, which is to provide consequences to various actions.

Murdering 50 people will more than likely net you an evil rating. Killing a Carebear a day to keep the bitch at bay, will probably not make you evil, but wont make you any more good.

[FlossDragon]

What I find interesting in this (and the other thread) discussion is the underlying assumption that Floss seems to make. Namely, that the PKs/Griefers/Kiddies, however he wants to call them, will ALWAYS be in greater number or ALWAYS be stronger than the character they try to kill. It's as if the griefers will be on top of the ladder of individual character power.

And if not character power, then the assumption seems to be that they'll have the better items to sway balance in their favour. While this may be true for loot-based games, where grinding through dungeons eventually gives you the top-end items, it completely falls through in a player-based economy. I remember in early EVE days, a pirate clan had to switch to energy weapons (no ammunition requirement), because their negative reputation (pirate status) made it impossible for them to buy ammo.

And if you're talking about non-combat characters getting slaughtered by griefers, then they know fully what they face when they get out there (out of an area patrolled by guards). If this was the only MMORPG being made, then you'd have a legitimate agrument for trying to protect some players' interests. Otherwise, go play WoW on the carebear server.

Kaneski, many of the guys in my guild do speak their mind when other players grief them or they realize another guild is using an exploit or hack. We have a very active complaint system that usually gets to a GM or Dev pretty quickly. When you get an email signed by 200+ paying customers you tend to sit up and listen. A number of us are GMs in different games and we are quite organized in making our views (or our whining as so many on this board would put it) known. We generally get action and because we get results we don't usually feel victimized. We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.

[Brista]

These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all.

Surely the intention of your post is purely to start a flame war

This is a full pvp game. If you've got as far as Wink's thread you know a bit about both the game and the community

Coming here and laboriously explaining to us the merits of a PvP switch is trolling

You have a very odd sense of humour (or possibly you're preternaturally stupid)

[Constantine]

We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.

If you and your guild get your kicks from hunting down cheaters and hackers and helping GMs and Admins kick them from games, by all means come play Darkfall and get your jollies from it. Every game has a small group of hackers that use exploits or develop illegal 3rd party programs to give themselves unfair advantages.

Hackers use programs to give themselves radar to track down other players, give themselves a superior aiming skills, invulnerability, invisibility, etc. etc. These programs are not limited to the use by player killers. What about the crafter who dupes gold and macros endlessly? What about the bounty hunters and anti-pks that use radar to track down legitimate player killers.

The general mentality is that the crafter isn't hurting anyone, so his cheating can be overlooked. Likewise the bounty hunters are cheating for a noble cause... they are riding the world of "griefers and pks" therefore they are okay.

Player killers are not the same as hackers and cheaters. They are just the unfortunate player base branded with the stigmatism of being cheaters.

Here I sit, a player who has no intention of being a player killer, a bounty hunter or any other major participant in the PvP action in game except perhaps to protect my hometown from a siege. I will end up playing probably one of the "goody two shoes" characters that PKs and RPKs gain great joy in killing. I expect that I will die often and probably that they might even laugh at my corpse and make fun of the "noob roleplayer" whom they just ganked.

Why, I ask, why on earth then am I so adamant about defending a particular group of players who could "grief" me and "ruin" my gameplay experience? Maybe because I don't consider it grief that ruins the experience, but rather an adventure that will keep the game fun and exciting. Perhaps I like the possibility that one day if I wanted I could pick up my sword and go hunt down a few murderers that are known to hide out in the mountains or snap under the pressure of being a "goody two shoes" and go on a reckless killing spree only to later come to my senses and repent. These things just are not options when you restrict people to "switches" and "coded rules".

If you want justice by getting a GM or dev to kick somebody out of the game because of their playstyle, this is not the game for you. If you'd rather find justice on your own terms with the help of a sword, magic spells and the aid of your guild then you might actually enjoy the open playstyle of the game.

[Lysandor]

There is no freedom if you have to appeal to a higher power to have justice done.

[Garth_Dax]

Nice Constantine. Good words, both the meaning and the writing. :)

[Murray]

My only hope is that if a good aligned person attacks a bad aligned person the bad aligned personc an defend himself, and maybe kill the good aligned person without taking a alignment hit. Thats the thing that bugged me the most about L2. A red can't defend himself without going more red.

Somewhere along the way I'm pretty sure it was a dev that posted that there'll be an aggressor flag, so you'll always be free to defend yourself.

[Mhorham]

PvP needs a purpose and a concequence to have any relevence. Without open pvp the purpose part is crippled. You should Need to fight to gain and maintain control of resources. These resources are things like land to build structures, secure places to bind, resource nodes for crafting and adventure areas for pve content. The concequence side of things can be handled largely by player justice, but only to those who have become established in the game world. For many who do not have a reputable guilds backing player justice does not work. That is where the Alignment system really comes into play.

The Alignment system is there to give a minimum lvl of security to people incapable of recieving the protection of player justice. It provides enough game structure that they can develop their characters within the racial homelands and form guilds that will allow them to deal their own player justice.

[Sarin]

PvP needs a purpose and a concequence to have any relevence. Without open pvp the purpose part is crippled. You should Need to fight to gain and maintain control of resources. These resources are things like land to build structures, secure places to bind, resource nodes for crafting and adventure areas for pve content. The concequence side of things can be handled largely by player justice, but only to those who have become established in the game world. For many who do not have a reputable guilds backing player justice does not work. That is where the Alignment system really comes into play.

The Alignment system is there to give a minimum lvl of security to people incapable of recieving the protection of player justice. It provides enough game structure that they can develop their characters within the racial homelands and form guilds that will allow them to deal their own player justice.

Nicely said sir.... couldnt agree more with what you just said.

[Mhorham]

Somewhere along the way I'm pretty sure it was a dev that posted that there'll be an aggressor flag, so you'll always be free to defend yourself.

Man you guys just dont get it. Thereis no freeking red, blue or green. If a negative aligned character attacked a positive alligned character it does not matter who wins. If your an Ork and your getting bad hits for pking noob Orks you have to reset by killing other races. Go hunt human noobs and you'll get better alignemnt with Ork npc's.

All the races are on a scale. Its a linier progression where Alfar are the most evil vile bastages and Mirdain are pristine panzy pickers. Knock it off with the red green crap already!

[Murray]

Man you guys just dont get it. Thereis no freeking red, blue or green. If a negative aligned character attacked a positive alligned character it does not matter who wins. If your an Ork and your getting bad hits for pking noob Orks you have to reset by killing other races. Go hunt human noobs and you'll get better alignemnt with Ork npc's.

All the races are on a scale. Its a linier progression where Alfar are the most evil vile bastages and Mirdain are pristine panzy pickers. Knock it off with the red green crap already!

*sigh* I never said anything about your rainbow. You can be any alignment of any race. I don't have the time to dig up the post or FAQ for you, but there is an aggressor flag, by flag I mean a coded flag, not something you fly. If you are attacked by someone, you will not have to worry about taking an alignment hit for killing them.

[Mhorham]

The only flag ever mentioned was in claus explaination for looting penalties. And I dodnt meen to single you out personaly. This L2/UO version of alignment has got people looking the wrong way at DF.

This game seems to use a progressive system wher races are placed at points along a scale. Values are added or subtracted to your alignment score based on your actions. Race will mater most significantly to this value. Changes in it will move you compared to the normal for your race.

[Murray]

Being the aggressor of a conflict is also another factor in determining what kind of affect it will have on your alignment, just like what race you are and what race the other party is.

[Lysandor]

The whole racial enemies thing should play nicely into keeping many PvPers occupied. But there will always be those who want to kill thy neighbor...

[Kaneski]

Kaneski, many of the guys in my guild do speak their mind when other players grief them or they realize another guild is using an exploit or hack. We have a very active complaint system that usually gets to a GM or Dev pretty quickly. When you get an email signed by 200+ paying customers you tend to sit up and listen. A number of us are GMs in different games and we are quite organized in making our views (or our whining as so many on this board would put it) known. We generally get action and because we get results we don't usually feel victimized. We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.

*clears throat*

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

What you just described is a group of collective 'waaah' when something they don't like happens. Then, instead of taking retaliation in-game, you do something that NO gamer should ever do - turn it into a real life matter. Now, in the case of geniune hacks and exploit abuse, your group's 'waaah' is generally not needed. People who abuse exploits are usually well-known, and while it may take a couple of days longer for them to disappear without a trace, it still happens 99% of the time. From your post, it's clear that you don't get the results because you're right (or at least not every time), you get them because you have more influence to make things happen - to make others think that you're right, and that's called Fascism. Surely you can see how arbitrarial your use of numbers is and the abuse open to your group - someone from your group gets PKed by someone who was waiting for your group member to be tired and wounded from another fight. In other words - an easy kill. Your group member tells the rest of you about it and immediately you go 'waaah' to the devs/GMs to ban that player. And for what? For timing his attack to his advantage...

[Arathalus]

[color=#cccccc][font=Verdana]Ok, let me make something extremely clear.

DF will not change its game style to that of a closed pvp system, it will always remain an open pvp system and whining and crying about it will not help in this regard.

Floss, I'm pleased that you see it as your duty to seek out hackers, exploiters and cheats in general, if everyone does this then great, DF will be the game it was always meant to be.

If you don

[Phineus]

CareBear?!? What exactly have you people been missing? DF = PvP
Don't cry like a bunch of little girls, be like real big boys and girls and handle things your self. As Arath said this is going to be a game where if your having a problem with someone you deal with it, some jerk kills your friend/group member anything you are free to take vengeance upon him for eternity if you should deem necessary. The Dev's are pvp'ers who finally get to make a game for them selves and most likely aren

[Constantine]

Thank you, Arathalus!

I doubt he'll listen to what you said, anything I've said or what the entire community has been trying to make clear to him all along.

You put what I've been trying to say into words very simply, direct and to the point.

So again... THANK YOU.

This thread has been an eye opener for me though. I am tired of arguing a point with people who do not listen, whether it is Floss or anybody else like him who pops up in the future. It is quite simply an excersize in futility and I see no reason to even waste my time anymore so I am quite literally finished.

Normally I'm not prone to flaming people or resort to name calling, but at the moment I don't care and I'll have my one moment of respite to say what's on my mind.

All you self-righteous carebears can crawl back under the latest EQ expansion and die. I'll see the rest of you in game when it is released.

[Murray]

Huzzah Arathalus!!!

It sounds so much better when you say it with that Community Tag by your name!!!

[Sinfay]

The nice thing about SB "open" pvp was accountability was through clans, not code or devs. An enemy nation kills some people from yours, you retaliate, and negotiate an agreement. Errants are killed on sight.

With "artificial" alignment, i mean, where is the real accountability? What happens when two similar race clans are at war with each other? You won't be able to go to your own NPC vendors. End result, both nations with alignment problems from raiding each other. Does that make them bad or evil?

So, in short, "alignment checks" do suck. Give cities and guilds the tools to police their own.

[Mhorham]

there is a guild thing for that.

[Konlii]

I think setting an alignment for your city's NPCs should be optional, with neutral as the default. But regardless of their alignment, NPCs should NEVER attack or refuse to sell to members of the guild that owns the city. That just doesn't make sense. It's your city. Realistically, if a merchant or a guard doesn't like the people in charge, either they get over it or they go somewhere else. If a merchant refuses to sell to the rulers because the merchant doesn't think they're "good people," he can expect to be arrested (and worse) for insulting the guys in power.

[Kaneski]

I'll support Konlii on that one. The FAQ (I think) mentions extensive controls and settings for the guildmaster, so hopefully the template for what you described is already implemented.

[ibesleepy]

The nice thing about SB "open" pvp was accountability was through clans, not code or devs. An enemy nation kills some people from yours, you retaliate, and negotiate an agreement. Errants are killed on sight.

With "artificial" alignment, i mean, where is the real accountability? What happens when two similar race clans are at war with each other? You won't be able to go to your own NPC vendors. End result, both nations with alignment problems from raiding each other. Does that make them bad or evil?

So, in short, "alignment checks" do suck. Give cities and guilds the tools to police their own.

I've been here for around 2 weeks at best, and I know this won't happen. If you attack anothe person of you're race while you're not at war with them they you'll take an alignment hit, but if you attack someone of you're race you are with war at it won't decrease you're alignment.

[Sinfay]

ibe kinda sleepy to heh But here's a scenario:

from the faq:
"How does alignment come into play when a good clan is at war with another good clan?
Once clans have declared war on each other, no alignment adjustments will occur due to your actions towards members of the clan you are at war with."

What will happen is this: the UberComptons will make a single clanstone with no buildings. They will attack "we are the carebear" clan and not declare war. Since the UberComptons are all already evil aligned and have second accounts with trader mules, they don't need a city that the alignment system is trying to protect. If the "we are the carebear" clan retaliates, they will take an alignment hit. That is how I would circumvent the alignment system, and many would too.

The only fix would be this: allow a clan to freely declare war on any clan they want to, whether the other clan agrees or not...Which is all a non-alignment open system is anyway.

The key thing in Claus's FAQ is that phrase is "declared war on each other"
If that means the other clan needs to approve of your war, the alignment system won't work. If it does not need approval, then everything is ok.

[Konlii]

I think you're reading too much into that dev quote. It doesn't actually say that you need approval to go to war. Besides, killing evil characters actually gives you an alignment boost.

[Lysandor]

Consentual War is a silly idea in a game without Consentual PvP.

[Baasha]

ibe kinda sleepy to heh But here's a scenario:

from the faq:
"How does alignment come into play when a good clan is at war with another good clan?
Once clans have declared war on each other, no alignment adjustments will occur due to your actions towards members of the clan you are at war with."

What will happen is this: the UberComptons will make a single clanstone with no buildings. They will attack "we are the carebear" clan and not declare war. Since the UberComptons are all already evil aligned and have second accounts with trader mules, they don't need a city that the alignment system is trying to protect. If the "we are the carebear" clan retaliates, they will take an alignment hit. That is how I would circumvent the alignment system, and many would too.

The only fix would be this: allow a clan to freely declare war on any clan they want to, whether the other clan agrees or not...Which is all a non-alignment open system is anyway.

The key thing in Claus's FAQ is that phrase is "declared war on each other"
If that means the other clan needs to approve of your war, the alignment system won't work. If it does not need approval, then everything is ok.

Couple notes - You get an alignment BOOST for killing evil aligned characters AND if they aren't evil aligned, then you simply declare war BACK on them to avoid taking an alignment hit for retaliating. Not exactly a way around that system, now is there?

I left Shadowbane because there were no consequences for PvP/PKing indiscriminantly. I played L2, but was disillusioned due to the lack of ability to fight back and the silliness of exponential Karma that you continue to garner. (In L2, every time you PK, you get a larger amount of Karma<alignment> that can never be reset.)

Time should heal all wounds, so to speak... L2 would be perfect if they did four things...(IMHO)

1. Allowed a red(evil toon) to defend themselves, i.e. kill their attackers (I.E. DFO's Aggressor flag).
2. Based the amount Karma you gain from a PK on the FREQUENCY of PK's, rather than total amount of PK's. (I.E. DFO's Alignment correction methods)
3. Reduced the EXP penalty associated with all PvP/PK deaths (I.E. DFO has no levels)
4. Halved the costs of equipment, slightly reducing the COMPLETE economy based power structure. (I.E. DFO's crafting is based on interest and research rather than farming MOBs constantly)

In short, Darkfall Online is exponentially better than L2 with regards to ALL aspects of PvP/PK. Let's give it a chance and an open mind.

[Jangang]

I'm 100% sure that you don't need the other clan to aprove a declaration of war. If you did it wouldn't be called a declaration, it would be called a negotiation.

[Lysandor]

Yes, consentual war doesnt make sense in a game with consensual PvP.

[lurifaxa]

Well Consentual clan-guild-city wars does not belong in DF.
Anybody shold be able to declare war on any time at any time!

[Humongous]

I like the idea of racial starting cities were new players are relatively safe. I'm assuming the developers will create powerful enough nps guards ect. to prevent most griefing. I like that because its reasonable to assume relative safety in the city. Leave the city however, and things change. You had better be prepared.

Regarding full looting. I can't wait. I think it will help prevent mindless attacks because dying will be a nasty penalty. The key is, the death penalty must be a deterrent. Also, I hope it will be difficult to determine a players skill level, as this will also make some griefers question the desire to attack others. Although I'm not sure about this one.

One thing also, how big the difference will be between the hardcore and causal gamer? There will always be groups of hardcore gamers who love to go PvP raiding. They will always be tough to beat and that will never change. But that's the game. Live and learn and move on. Become smarter, grow your toon, and one day maybe get revenge.

Sounds like fun to me. :D

[peatymoorland]

What you said there is absurd. If I don't want to participate in PvP, it is my choice. Just because I don't want some weenie to sneak up behind me while I am in the middle of a battle and low on health to PK me, doesn't make me a carebear. If I want to deal with that kind of mentality I could just as easily hop in my car and hit the local freeway. There are plenty of people there that will cut me off, box me in and then pace me, etc. The fact is the basic nature of the average person nowdays is crap. And I don't log into a game to deal with that, I PAY to play a game cause it is supposed to be fun. What is fun for you might not be fun to me. Play Lineage 2 and you will see people that farm money to sell it for US dollars. Money comes easier at lower levels so when a farmer gets out of the good money making range he will delevel. So it is no loss at all for a farmer to die, hence when they go on a PK rampage when you finally kill them that is what they wanted, they lost nothing. But for all the people they PK they lost time. It isn't even rewarding to kill somebody like that. Games are supposed to be fun, not a second job. I certainly wouldn't PAY to take on a second job, and I don't know many people that would.

[Goose]

What you said there is absurd. If I don't want to participate in PvP, it is my choice. Just because I don't want some weenie to sneak up behind me while I am in the middle of a battle and low on health to PK me, doesn't make me a carebear.

If you don't want to PvP it definately is your choice....to not play DF and find another game that you'll enjoy. Not wanting to die to a weenie who choses to kill you when the opportunity is ripe might not make you a carebear. But it may mean you won't enjoy this game. DF, as I see it, is designed for people who like all forms of PvP to include race wars, guild wars, and your basic killing someone to get their stuff. If you expect to die and don't let it bother you, prepare for it by having friends and spare gear, and can deal with the fact that you're not really safe anywhere, this is the game for you.

[Regulator]

There it is, you think you're special, you should be able to go anywhere you want, get into anyone's face you want and they shouldn't be able to touch you unless you say it's OK. So if you're wandering through the woods, alone, picking flowers or whatever, and you stumble into a group of bandits, they should have written permission to be able to kill you and take your stuff?

That's exactly why people turn away from games like L2, because you can't kill off the foolish or get rid of the annoying punks of the world without taking severe character penalties.

The Alignment system is pleanty harsh enough. The bandits who constantly kill the innocent will be flagged criminals and evil. Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.
Actually you can kill anyone you want anytime you want in L2 I do it all the time just not in towns :(.

[Lysandor]

L2 isn't balanced PvP though...right?

[Regulator]

Yeah Its actually very balanced in my mind. You just need stratigies you can go into battle with the same weapons and armor again each class with certain classes. The only thing I hate about pvp in L2 is how lvls take place in PVP its so stupid, cuz u need to be withign 3 lvls to have a chance 90% of the time.

[Axull]

I think many players miss an important aspect of open pvp with an alignment system; they open many role playing options for players. How can I really be an evil player in a game that doesn't allow me to kill innocent players? How am I facing the consequences of being evil if I walk around in any town just like any other player (Without alignment)? Not to mention, it is funner. It is funner to be hunting a group of mobs when a murderer walks around the corner, that is intense.

[Lysandor]

I didn't like how SWG did it personally. The whole Covert/Overt thing got old.

[Regulator]

Yeah I knwo what you mean I can remeber how many times I've been at ice in UO in a party killing stuff when a red comes running over and before I knwo my parties gone yelling red red red and now its a 1on1.

[KorumMaker]

I know this is an old thread, but I just HAD to put my 2 cents in... (unfortunately for you all, my 2 cents is usually increased by inflation by quite a bit)

My thought. When I first heard of online games at all, it was after years of paper/pencil gaming. The games I heard of were called muds. Didn't really interest me, cause I couldn't feel immersed in text gaming. (With text gaming, one cannot see the look on another's face, or hear their breath catch when you calmly threaten their person, objects, or wealth.) Then came one player graphical games, which were ok, I played many of them, but still needed other human involvement, so still not my style. When UO came out, I jumped on. Still small graphically, but more people to interact with than I could at my table at home.. (big game was 14 people)

Point is, I always envisioned a game that was alot like the pencil/paper games of my gaming youth... In these games, one player got pissed at an npc or another player? You played it out to its logical conclusion. Role-played if you will... There were laws in place, but the truly bad-ass didn't give a damn. I remember one scenario that was a long standing rivalry was a monk-type I was playing constantly outwitting a barbarian played by another person. I think the origional argument was over some donations I had made to the monastary out of the groups "loot". He, of course went balistic on me, I thumped him on the head. He woke up, I suggested he calm down and talk, he went balistic again, I got lucky, and pulled out his windpipe. He cashed in a favor of a deity, woke up and it was on and off for a year or more...
This was very fun. The point is, we weren't griefing each other, we were playing our characters...
This is very different from online griefers today, they may say they are "roleplaying" but I find alot of them must be "roleplaying" a mass murdering serial killer. Sure, that is how they enjoy their 10 bucks a month or whatever, but it is at a cost for everyone else they interact with... If they interact with 150 people in that month, that is quite a few peoples money wasted for them to be assholes.
So DarkFall's checks and balances system, while still allowing Full PvP, is also going to cut down on the mass murderer types... They will still be out there, but they will be much rarer in DF I think. Reason: "Evil" characters will find it harder to goto a town (even racially friendly) unless they are alfar. (And alfar will not be welcome in any other racial town I have heard) W/O towns, it will be harder to process resources, buy gear, sell loot, fix armor/weapons, etc. etc. This will force them into a situation where if they don't get frustrated and leave, the easiest path for them to follow may be to team up with others like themselves, make an evil clan, and make an evil clan town.... Thereby they are thrust back into the system. Now they can declare war on other clans, make their own laws, set their own standards, etc...
I am not saying this is the only scenario, but it will be the path of least resistance in DarkFall. There will be fringe groups, or loners. But these will comprise probably a minority of the players. Lets face it, this game is going to attract and hold mostly those that want mass warfare. Nothing wrong with that! Sounds like fun to me, and half the fun will be building up your clans and towns to get to the stage of mass warfare :) Anyway, as far as mass murderers, griefers, etc. etc. I am not too worried. I think the checks and balances system is going to work in the long run.

-Korum

[Falokis]

This is very different from online griefers today, they may say they are "roleplaying" but I find alot of them must be "roleplaying" a mass murdering serial killer. Sure, that is how they enjoy their 10 bucks a month or whatever, but it is at a cost for everyone else they interact with... If they interact with 150 people in that month, that is quite a few peoples money wasted for them to be assholes.
So DarkFall's checks and balances system, while still allowing Full PvP, is also going to cut down on the mass murderer types... They will still be out there, but they will be much rarer in DF I think. Reason: "Evil" characters will find it harder to goto a town (even racially friendly) unless they are alfar. (And alfar will not be welcome in any other racial town I have heard) W/O towns, it will be harder to process resources, buy gear, sell loot, fix armor/weapons, etc. etc. This will force them into a situation where if they don't get frustrated and leave, the easiest path for them to follow may be to team up with others like themselves, make an evil clan, and make an evil clan town.... Thereby they are thrust back into the system. Now they can declare war on other clans, make their own laws, set their own standards, etc...
I am not saying this is the only scenario, but it will be the path of least resistance in DarkFall. There will be fringe groups, or loners. But these will comprise probably a minority of the players. Lets face it, this game is going to attract and hold mostly those that want mass warfare. Nothing wrong with that! Sounds like fun to me, and half the fun will be building up your clans and towns to get to the stage of mass warfare :) Anyway, as far as mass murderers, griefers, etc. etc. I am not too worried. I think the checks and balances system is going to work in the long run.

-KorumYou hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what I want. I don't want to run the players out of the game that want to be evil. I want to make it hard enough on them so they cannot survive solo for the whole game. I want it so they HAVE to group together and HAVE to have a town for trade and survival. It can be a hidden from the main map or whatever. I just want something that can be attacked to slow them down for awhile. I don't want to run them out of the game, I just want the ability to hurt them back and let them know they pissed someone off. I like rpks. They add spice.

[Lysandor]

Amen, don't prohibit people from being assholes, just make them pay reasonable consequences.

[Ceridwenn]

I'm currently playing Eve, in wich you can attack anyone, anywhere. Though if you attack someone in a system with a security lvl above a certain lvl you will get the cops on your arse. And eventually get wanted if you keep it up.
That's a much better system than the "no hitting on the n00b player or God will bann your account" that DnL are proposing.
the only way to attack in high security is to declare war. Then you can attack AND be attacked anywhere.
Can that be exploited? Yes, there are some corps(guilds) that try to declare war on every n00b corp. But they only end up having to fight 10 other corps that starts war with them and have 10 times the number against them. And by joining an alliance, you will have the whole alliance backing you up.

So I say full PvP with standing towards factions and you will get a world for everyone.
And besides, hauling a wagon full of mined ore just gets more interesting if there are rouge bandits on the route. That will lead to alliance and protection letters and basically, more roleplaying.

[Gar]

Playing the game Darkfall is pretty much based on, I can tell you what will happen. It's happened for the past ten years of the game I play. It's happened in Asheron's Call, UO, and Shadowbane. The assholes and griefers will not be stopped by any game rule. They won't ever leave. After the game's design flaws, these griefers will be the driving force behind driving away new players. They will always outnumber the non-griefers, and more than likely they'll be more organized. Darkfall's survival really depends on whether or not the rest of the players can fight the good fight for pretty much DF's entire existence. I foresee many problems, like this Alignment System. The griefers will abuse every loophole possible to make you suffer. That's what they do.

Good luck with that, anyway :o

[Lysandor]

I don't see what the difficulty would be, unless a 'griefer' goaded you into killing him in a racial capital and you get owned by the guards. But then really...whose weakness was that?

Killing other people is not griefing.

[Gar]

I'm not talking about just killing people. Griefers are not out to kill you - they're out to make you feel bad. They get jollies from ruining your day. They are the American teenager.

The Alignment System is just going to be abused. If i was this griefer group, I'd pick a race that was the same as the "good guys", and harass the crap out of everyone else. I'd drive away all the Ork newbies, while you Dwarf good guys can't do a damn thing. Killing is the least evil that falls under "harassing". Imagine a whole group of people who scream profanities, talk smack constantly, cheat wherever possible (and simply come back when they get banned, it's easy), and generally do as much as they can to ruin the day of everyone in reach? It's going to happen, it always does. New players are not going to stay in such a world.

You'll be forced to join up with the side of people that you respect, who fight the griefers. The game is then rendered pointless, as you're fighting people you don't care about (and it will be that way forever, since griefers never leave as long as you hate them). When you don't care about who you're fighting, why play the game?

edit: It doesn't have to happen this way, but it always has before. It'd be best not to provide things that will so easily be abused, like this Alignment System. There are other and better ways to do what the AS is intended for.

[Leahn]

I'm not talking about just killing people. Griefers are not out to kill you - they're out to make you feel bad. They get jollies from ruining your day. They are the American teenager.

I am not American, but I must say, it was a very bad comment.

The Alignment System is just going to be abused. If i was this griefer group, I'd pick a race that was the same as the "good guys", and harass the crap out of everyone else. I'd drive away all the Ork newbies, while you Dwarf good guys can't do a damn thing.

Forgive, sir, but I could not understand your point. Do you think that the Ork oldbies won't fight you back? First of all, do you REALLY think that you will reach alive the Orkish newbie area (which will probably be the racial capital) and harass them unpunished being a Dwarf? Man! You gotta be kidding me! Besides, we can always kill the Alfar. This is why they were created, after all. To be killed by everyone. No whining allowed. Fighting back allowed. Otherwise it would be no fun. The fact that you can describe yourself doing it in the 1st person worries me a lot, too.

[Fikk]

No that comment about American teenagers sounds about right.

[Preston]

I'm not talking about just killing people. Griefers are not out to kill you - they're out to make you feel bad. They get jollies from ruining your day. They are the American teenager.

The Alignment System is just going to be abused. If i was this griefer group, I'd pick a race that was the same as the "good guys", and harass the crap out of everyone else. I'd drive away all the Ork newbies, while you Dwarf good guys can't do a damn thing. Killing is the least evil that falls under "harassing". Imagine a whole group of people who scream profanities, talk smack constantly, cheat wherever possible (and simply come back when they get banned, it's easy), and generally do as much as they can to ruin the day of everyone in reach? It's going to happen, it always does. New players are not going to stay in such a world.

You'll be forced to join up with the side of people that you respect, who fight the griefers. The game is then rendered pointless, as you're fighting people you don't care about (and it will be that way forever, since griefers never leave as long as you hate them). When you don't care about who you're fighting, why play the game?

edit: It doesn't have to happen this way, but it always has before. It'd be best not to provide things that will so easily be abused, like this Alignment System. There are other and better ways to do what the AS is intended for.

I don't think this will happen at all. The whole point of Darkfall is to "harass" the enemy race as much as possible. If I'm a dwarf and I have a hankering for fresh Ork meat at the end of my axe, so be it. Will I be able to waltz into Ork territory and run right up to the newbie hunting areas near their racial capital and start swinging? If I'm lucky enough to make it there more than likely I wouldn't live past my first swing. If anyone sees me, every Ork within a hundred mile radius will know where I'm at and want to kill me. On top of that there will be Ork guards running around everywhere.

Besides, I bet you anything any Ork "newbies" would attack me at first sight just to get the chance to kill their first dwarf.

[Vinadil]

Maybe I missed a whole genre of PvP games in which these "griefers" ruled the world... but I never met them in the only real PvP game I have played... SB. They existed some in DAoC, L2, and even in WoW... but that is just because I can't kill them or get penalized for protecting myself from them in those games...

I have yet to see a griefer (IE someone bent on stopping me from having fun through cursing, following me around, being a jerk etc.) that cannot be stopped by either a) the handy /ignore command, b) MOVING to a different spot in the world, or c) killing him and his friends repeatedly until THEY move.

I don't know why people think that online games are going to be different than real life. How do you people deal with rude individuals in the real world? Do you happen to live in that special place that has NO rude people? Or do you devise ways to not be around them and when you do get trapped by one you do what you have to do to get away? It is not really so different in the gaming world. As long as the game provides a way to "get away" then you will have no problems with griefers... the alignment system is (hopefully) not so stringent that it will become a barrier of safety for griefers... and we really won't know til we play.

[Preston]

Maybe I missed a whole genre of PvP games in which these "griefers" ruled the world... but I never met them in the only real PvP game I have played... SB. They existed some in DAoC, L2, and even in WoW... but that is just because I can't kill them or get penalized for protecting myself from them in those games....

This is so true. There probably won't be many (if any) griefers in Darkfall, and it is too bad because that means there will be less people worth killing. :(

The Darkfall dev team are experienced hardcore PvP gamers. They've seen it all and been through it all. That's why I like DF's design so much - it matches my playstyle perfectly unlike all the other MMORPG's out there. I'm sure there will be tweaks in the alignment system during testing, but the way it is set up right now sounds sweet as honey to me.

[Black Swordsman]

Well, i wouldnt worry about those types of gamers, simply because a person like that wouldnt know if the person they were about to grief far outskilled them or not, it would be a risk i guess they would weigh if they wanted to take.

[Gorheru]

I just hope the alignment system isn't stringent, allowing for conflict between anyone anytime without suddenly changing alignment from Good to Neutral, especially if one is provoked. Also, since DFO is player-driven then racial wars or variations thereof will happen. Mercenaires, multi-racial guilds, and other guild variations will form and reform. I don't agree that any MMORPG will thrive longterm if everyone of a particular race is forced, through game design, to get along and takes sides unquestioningly. Shadowbane succeeded in allowing guilds and nations to rise and fall, entirely based on the players involved and their motives. Griefers were simply known and desposed of, and if not then perhaps your guild wasn't organized (unfortunately a very common case). Worst case scenario you lost your city and simply joined another or remained errant on a vengeful path. Allowing one to SEE the alignment is setting an artificial restraint, which I though this game was trying to avoid in character development.

[pronkyou2]

Perhaps to avoid a hit to alignment if you're just defending yourself from homoracial killers, there could be the killing blow style, where they become incapacitated once they are down to a certain amount of health, either number or percentage, and killers would likely kill at this point. Although there's still a possibility to kill too quickly for it to get to this point... And you would be able to loot only after death? Or do you think a good idea would be to loot incapped players... I've never seen this system used well, so it's possible, albeit very unlikely, or they would have implemented it already. I guess that turned into more of a rant. But that's still more for 'carebears'. I don't care about the hit, 'cause I'll kill you if you ever try to kill me. Loot and piss on your corpse. :D ;)

[Vehementi]

just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot

Hahahahahaha!! <tribes> You idiot! </tribes>

[Nefastus]

I disagree that current Alignment System is good. I still insist that Alignment Penalty should be issued ONLY if a victim reports the crime to a local NPC Guard Outpost. With full Alignment System you limit out Sparrying, Tournaments, Duels, and so on. At least with Report System both groups would be on even grounds.

[Marrik]

I think it is dropping it right down something other than a well.

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me. The PvP flag system works fine--if you want to PvP you can. you just can't abuse other players.

Why can't you see the obvious?

ok, so if thats what you want, WHY DID YOU COME TO A GAME THATS CLAIM TO FAME IS THAT ITS A FULL PVP FULL LOOT GAME??

[Marrik]

Perhaps to avoid a hit to alignment if you're just defending yourself from homoracial killers, there could be the killing blow style, where they become incapacitated once they are down to a certain amount of health, either number or percentage, and killers would likely kill at this point. Although there's still a possibility to kill too quickly for it to get to this point... And you would be able to loot only after death? Or do you think a good idea would be to loot incapped players... I've never seen this system used well, so it's possible, albeit very unlikely, or they would have implemented it already. I guess that turned into more of a rant. But that's still more for 'carebears'. I don't care about the hit, 'cause I'll kill you if you ever try to kill me. Loot and piss on your corpse. :D ;)

thats the one thing i liked in SWG, but that could be annoying for big battles...

[Gloomrender]

Griefers are gonna be in every pvp game, theres really nothing you can do to prevent it. But it doesnt matter, and ill tell you all why.

Someone mentioned that in SB there werent many real griefers, and there werent. Thats because in SB there was ACCOUNTABILITY. If you gank someone, then his guild can come and camp your corpse for the whole night, or even burn down your frickin home!

And Darkfall will be similar with alignment and town accountability. Smart players will be wise in what actions they take, or face the consequences of idiocy. Because other smart players can take down names :D

[Khael[SUN]]

Kaneski, many of the guys in my guild do speak their mind when other players grief them or they realize another guild is using an exploit or hack. We have a very active complaint system that usually gets to a GM or Dev pretty quickly. When you get an email signed by 200+ paying customers you tend to sit up and listen. A number of us are GMs in different games and we are quite organized in making our views (or our whining as so many on this board would put it) known. We generally get action and because we get results we don't usually feel victimized. We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.

Your various statements in this thread makes me sick to the heart, makes me feel so sad. The amount of bullshit you are spouting here is amazing and has left me speechless.

All what you seem to want from a game, is what noone here wants. Because there's already a dozen other mmorpg's for selfrighteous carebears out there.

You are lost beyond all hope, please just leave.

[JesustehREd]

I disagree that current Alignment System is good. I still insist that Alignment Penalty should be issued ONLY if a victim reports the crime to a local NPC Guard Outpost.

Indeed, a crime isn't really a crime if it never gets reported, leave it up to the individual whether he wants that persons reputation tarnished. What if you and a friend are hunting and since the game is twitch he shoots you in the back of the head killing you? Do you really want to see your friend lose rep from the accident, and what about when you whack his ass at a later date to repay the offense, do you want to take a rep hit for that?

All in all I think reporting would be a nice element to the system, kinda like in SB where pkers got away with their actions unless the person they killed went to the tree, purchased a warrant and gave it to a member of the IC to have them make that individual KoS.

[Acetrix]

Reporting could still be abused tho if there was no Tournament mode. Like that both players set the alignment penalty off.

[Nefastus]

Reporting could still be abused tho if there was no Tournament mode. Like that both players set the alignment penalty off.

How could reporting system be abused? I mean, I respect what you are saying, but I can't imagine a situation and reason for abusement of report system.

[Acetrix]

Hehe, not that it would be abused. I meant like tournament players could be killed on tournaments and then just report it to npc outpost. So even if you r training your recruits, they could report you. And i dun wanna get alignment penalty just because that recruit is a complete jackass, that joined clan just to grief ppl. :/

I say there should really be smth like Duel mode, if reporting system was implemented.

[BalanceFx]

All in all an alignment system is pointless and artficially restricts our freedom as players. We should be able to creep through our town through the dead of night after curfew to burgle the rich baron. And yes maybe we'll get caught... But we shouldn't defintely get caught.

Let the players police the players... To some degree most stories don't even make sense when played in their artfical world. The great menace of evil King Nordstrom came to the Good Kings castle and killed him sending a sliver of hate throughout the world forever. When in reality... This evil red king guy tried to come to town but he was evil and the guards autokilled. He respawned 17 times before he realized he can't make it to the good kings castle while he's evil. So he spent all night befriending rabbits and giving them carrots until he was good. Once he was blue he went to the kings castle and killed him which turned him red, which made the guards kill him and now they are both spawned in the cemetary and have been fighting there all day...

[Falokis]

All in all an alignment system is pointless and artficially restricts our freedom as players. We should be able to creep through our town through the dead of night after curfew to burgle the rich baron. And yes maybe we'll get caught... But we shouldn't defintely get caught.

Let the players police the players... To some degree most stories don't even make sense when played in their artfical world. The great menace of evil King Nordstrom came to the Good Kings castle and killed him sending a sliver of hate throughout the world forever. When in reality... This evil red king guy tried to come to town but he was evil and the guards autokilled. He respawned 17 times before he realized he can't make it to the good kings castle while he's evil. So he spent all night befriending rabbits and giving them carrots until he was good. Once he was blue he went to the kings castle and killed him which turned him red, which made the guards kill him and now they are both spawned in the cemetary and have been fighting there all day...I don't see how this is any different than just placing a name or guild on the KOS in shadowbane. Which I might add no one bitched about for some reason. The only thing you cannot change about the guards is the autokill of certain races. Killing good or evil of the same race is up to you. If a king was 'good' why the hell wouldn't his guards auto kill an 'evil' player. So, how is this limiting you again? Are you a different race or the same?

[Lysandor]

Hehe, thread resurrection wins.

[Knight]

If Darkfall turns out the way it claims, and levels truly don't matter. Then the griefers and the pkers are not going to mean much. I haven't seen anyone yet (though I passed up half the posts admitedly) that has mentioned that the pkers and the griefers often rely on being max level characters with the most expensive gear. If darkfall is what it claims to be, you only have to worry about a pker if your afk taking a piss or not paying attention while you try to rp with your helmet off (byebye head)

You can't bitch about getting player killed, especially repeatedly, with the system Darkfall is going to have. A lot of people don't mind dying, It's dying from someone 30 levels higher than you that you had no chance of defending yourself against. And you can't bitch about carebears and peopl ewanting to nerf pvp when your that guy that's 30 levels higher killing people that can't defend yourself because you lack any real skill.

I think darkfall has pulled off the best pvp system to date. You can pk easily, just don't expect that dwarf to roll over and die so easily, or you might be walking with a stump. I look forward to fighting AND killing people because I know it will be because I had the skill to do so, not the equipement.

P.s. A true pker or pvper will accept an evil alignment and gloat that he ganked 300 people in a month in darkfall, not sit and bitch about alignment hits. People that brag about pking someone and then bitch about an alignment system in the same breath are foolish. Your not losing points, its not trammel.

:ninja: Player Killing
So someone is being an annoying little cuss? Knock off their head, walk away, kill one pker, your alignment is perfect again.

So someone is ambushing people? They arn't any more powerful than you. Fight them, if you die, oh well, its not like you got flamed at level 20 by a level 80, you lost a battle fair and square.

The way I see it, Darkfall is going be be something like this

Superior Semi-skilled Numbers < Skill < Zerging
and
Skill < Experience < Gear

If there are no levels, then there remain only a couple or so serious ways in which you will lose a battle.
1) You suck, or just having a sucky day, but probably because you suck
2) Outnumbered, a lot, like 10 to 1, and you trip, on your shoelace
3) You forgot your sword, and forget that you have 2 hands
4) You get knifed in back, and let him stab you repeatedly.
5) Once again, you suck = you die, or run off crying.

:ninja: Dueling
As for dueling or defending yourself and everyhting else taking a hit from the alignment system, I don't see why it would. Make it so your alignment won't decrease if you attack someone AFTER they attack you. And not that hard to put something like a duel button in; select person, click duel, they get invited to a duel, they accept, you fight without fear of alignment hit. Heck add in options for non-loot and loot duels and you should keep both sides happy.

:ninja: Guild combat
And of course there would a method so guilds at war wouldn't take hits to their alignment, I mean you know they already have that in, that's just a given, couldn't have pvp without it. Maybe they are doing some method where a guild leader can declare war and then all members can attack without fear. Then to keep people from using the guild war/battle function to just list all other guilds as enemies, you make it so anyone you list as an enemy can automatically kill you as well wihtout suffering a hit to alignment. I'm almost positive they already have this in place.

:ninja: Rez?
And did someone resurrect this thread after 5 months? Wow, and I thought I was a troll.

[Speady]

If Darkfall turns out the way it claims, and levels truly don't matter. Then the griefers and the pkers are not going to mean much. I haven't seen anyone yet (though I passed up half the posts admitedly) that has mentioned that the pkers and the griefers often rely on being max level characters with the most expensive gear. If darkfall is what it claims to be, you only have to worry about a pker if your afk taking a piss or not paying attention while you try to rp with your helmet off (byebye head)

:ninja: Player Killing
So someone is being an annoying little cuss? Knock off their head, walk away, kill one pker, your alignment is perfect again.

So someone is ambushing people? They arn't any more powerful than you. Fight them, if you die, oh well, its not like you got flamed at level 20 by a level 80, you lost a battle fair and square.

The way I see it, Darkfall is going be be something like this

Superior Semi-skilled Numbers < Skill < Zerging
and
Skill < Experience < Gear

If there are no levels, then there remain only a couple no so serious ways in which you will lose a battle.
1) You suck, or just having a sucky day, but probably because you suck
2) Outnumbered, a lot, like 10 to 1, and you trip, on your shoelace
3) You forgot your sword, and forget that you have 2 hands
4) You get knifed in back, and let him stab you repeatedly.
5) Once again, you suck = you die, or run off crying.

:ninja: Dueling
As for dueling or defending yourself and everyhting else taking a hit from the alignment system, I don't see why it would. Make it so your alignment won't decrease if you attack someone AFTER they attack you. And not that hard to put something like a duel button in; select person, click duel, they get invited to a duel, they accept, you fight without fear of alignment hit. Heck add in options for non-loot and loot duels and you should keep both sides happy.

:ninja: Guild combat
And of course there would a method so guilds at war wouldn't take hits to their alignment, I mean you know they already have that in, that's just a given, couldn't have pvp without it. Maybe they aredoing some method where a guild leader can declare war and then all members can attack without fear. Then to keep people from using the guild war/battle function to just list all other guilds as enemies, you make it so anyone you list as an enemy can automatically kill you as well wihtout suffering a hit to alignment. I'm almost positive they already have htis in place.

:ninja: Rez?
And did someone resurrect this thread after 5 months? Wow, and I thought I was a troll.

(this isnt ment to be rude or anything) but IMO who the f*ck cares about alignment except your own. I dont wanna be allies with anyone, maybe orks but thats about it.

adding on to your reasons people lose battles.. I dont think anyone will forget a sword that would be just the most stupid thing anyone could ever possibly do.. (i'm not flameing you just btw) I think people are gonna lose battles because yes THEY SUCK.. This is going to be a skill based game or

|-|How well you use the skills you have chosen|-| and how good you are at aiming (ranged or casting) and how good are you at spamming the attack key on someones face.

I'm now starting to not see how a really crappy player can have no problem killing a skilled player.. all your doing is probably jumping around and spamming the attack key. I want to see the Dev's make it so that it does make a difference if your skilled or not.

[Knight]

I would like to please ask that you not use the quote when your the only post after me, it's in bad taste and wastes space. (not to flame you or anything)

And your grammer made it a little difficult to understand what you were saying sometimes.

If you get ganked because some noob spammed the attack key, I dont think you have skill.

Losing your sword, it was a joke. I understand it's a little early in the morning to be fully awake, but try to bring your sense of humor to the table.

You kinda repeated what I said about people sucking being the primary reason they would die. I'm fairly certain spamming a key is not going to do much for you except make you look like an epileptic having a seizure. There is probably a timing mechanism for swings an dall that, I wouldn't be surprised if you use the mouse in conjuction with shift or ctrl to swing and control the camera simultaniously. If you have to aim a bow and magic, I'm pretty sure you will also need to swing your sword, or at the very least time it.

[Speady]

I would like to please ask that you not use the quote when your the only post after me, it's in bad taste and wastes space. (not to flame you or anything)

And your grammer made it a little difficult to understand what you were saying sometimes.

If you get ganked because some noob spammed the attack key, I dont think you have skill.

Losing your sword, it was a joke. I understand it's a little early in the morning to be fully awake, but try to bring your sense of humor to the table.

You kinda repeated what I said about people sucking being the primary reason they would die. I'm fairly certain spamming a key is not going to do much for you except make you look like an epileptic having a seizure. There is probably a timing mechanism for swings an dall that, I wouldn't be surprised if you use the mouse in conjuction with shift or ctrl to swing and control the camera simultaniously. If you have to aim a bow and magic, I'm pretty sure you will also need to swing your sword, or at the very least time it.

Yeah must be cause I just woke up that my grammar sucks.. mybad for that..

I also wouldn't be surprised if combat was that like, would make it alot harder to fight and then the skill would come into place..

I'm sorry if I repeated anything you said i'm still wakeing up just trying to have something to do because I can't play a game without my comp crashing .. I need a new everything =).

[Seaelf]

I have been posting on the DDO site (dungeons and dragons online), and everytime someone says anything about PvP they say, "Take it to another game." LOL anyway, most of the people I talk to want to play darkfall because of the PvP.

This should mean that the players are the real competitors in the game. An alignment system restricts PvP. In the real world there is no alignment, just because you are a terrorist doesn't mean you are evil, "freedom fighter" or something I guess.

If you get ganked you have to do something about it. Join a zerg guild or whatever. If you want PvE play a different game IMO.

[Sarisei]

I admit I didn't read every single reply in this thread, but what I saw through the first few pages was a lot of misunderstandings and defensiveness. I also saw people wanting the same thing, just with different approaches on how to get it.

No one wants the hackers, dupers, and general jerks in the game, I think that can be agreed on. But, as has been pointed out several times, open PvP or not, these people will show up. The only way to counter them is to report and keep reporting them to the GM's if they are doing something that harms the game as a whole. Afterall, if they find a loophole in the game's systems that allows them to do certain things which are against the ToS or EULA, then that's a problem for the devs/GM's and not for the playerbase to begin with. The only way to correct it is to report it to the right people so they can take care of it and work on a way to close the hole.

Now, I am sympathetic to those who are anti-PvP and can understand where they come from. When you are out and about in a game doing something else and just not in the mood to fight the guy/girl that keeps taunting you, you want to have the choice not to. Unfortunately, that's not how this game will work, so, yes, you may want to consider another one. This is not, by far, the only game coming out on the market.

For those that say that Trammel was a wimped out version of what UO once was, I have to wonder what the people were like that played on your server. Trammel, on the server I played on, was actually quite a lot of fun and blended well the concept of consentual PvP with open PvP. With Trammel you had the right to choose to PvP or not PvP by joining warring guilds or not. I lived in Felucca, but was in a guild that warred a lot of other guilds and was based in Trammel. If I came across a player from one of the guilds on our war list, they knew they were fair game to me and I to them. The element of risk was still there, just among like minded people and we all still got plenty of PvP. If no one was around and I was in the mood for PvP, I went 'red hunting' in Felucca and had my fun.

Now, I have to point out, although a few of you already know, I am first and foremost a roleplayer. I have no problems with Darkfall being open PvP and that's said knowing full well that I absolutely stink at PvP and will die many, many times at the hands of others. I still don't have a problem with it. The only thing I will say that will annoy me will be the trash talk that I know will ensue afterward since many devoted PK's have no concept of the word honor, but I can counter that with the beloved /ignore feature when I stumble across them. My only hope is that the devs don't put a cap on how many players I can ignore.

As was pointed out to me in another thread, though, trash talk is something that the devs actually encourage, so I am the one who will have to adapt. Even though seeing people talk in internet shorthand or leet speak irks me beyond belief, I do have a course of action so I don't have to see it.

Does all this make me a carebear? Probably to the general playerbase it does, yes. Do I care what they think of me? Yes and no. I'm the type of person who prefers to have earned a bit of respect for honorable play and roleplay whether or not I'm playing a 'bad guy' or a 'good guy', but no, I won't let how other players act or react to me affect how I play.

I always carry around the hope that how I handle myself ingame will rub off on the immature 'I R LEET PK!' crowd, but I won't shove my way of thinking down their throat nor will I just roll over and let them steamroll what I consider fun. If PvP is brought to me, even if I'm not in the mood to do it at the moment, I will stand and fight (and more than likely lose :p ), but I won't let it ruin my fun.

So yes, I will agree that those who are adamantly against PvP should look in another direction for a new game, but I will also say that everyone should learn to respect differing playstyles rather than insulting them because they're different from yours.

[Knight]

I have been posting on the DDO site (dungeons and dragons online), and everytime someone says anything about PvP they say, "Take it to another game." LOL anyway, most of the people I talk to want to play darkfall because of the PvP.

True, but Hell, even if I didn't plan on pvping a single battle I would buy this game. Look at the hype, The adventurers want to get their paws on this game, The most massive game world EVER. I'm even considering setting aside a week or two just to explore the map. The your gonna get the pvpers, a lot of them don't care about gear as much as look. So far I haven't see anything spectaticular about the look of this game, but it nevertheless looks good, and the game world is probably going to look absolutely awesome.

I want to play it for numerous reasons, but don't discount other people or their playing styles, darkfall should by nature be wide enough for everyone to enjoy themselves, and the true pvpers are going to be so busy that roleplayers should be able to enjoy themselves, especially in large groups.


This should mean that the players are the real competitors in the game. An alignment system restricts PvP. In the real world there is no alignment, just because you are a terrorist doesn't mean you are evil, "freedom fighter" or something I guess.

um......yeah.........Yuu just contradicted yourself. Alignment by nature, good or evil black or white love or hate. There is alignment, its just quite a bit more complicated in games. An alignment system shouldnt restrict pvp if there is no penalty for gvg battles. Trammel has you all so fucking paranoid your starting to sound like carebears. Pvp will be fine, maybe if your in a group attacking a town and not preying on noobs *winK*


If you get ganked you have to do something about it. Join a zerg guild or whatever. If you want PvE play a different game IMO.

Because that's what we really need, lost playerbase. Let the roleplayers come, if they are bitches they will leave just because they die occasionally. Stop hating on roleplayers carebears and fanbois so damn much. Darkfall is going to accomodate everyone, make no mistake. And wihtout a level system they should never have an excuse to nurf Pvp. I believe several of the Pk's are goign to be surprised when that harmless noob loots your ear and adds it to his collection.

Most of them will join zerg guilds, enough numbers in a game like this and even skill wont matter for the normal day to day out-to-explore pvp. I don't think your going to slaughter a group of 10 roleplayers by yourself no matter how good you are.

[Seaelf]

Not sure how I contradicted myself, but sorry if it was confusing.

I hope the game world is as huge as it sounds and that all types will be able to coexsist happily doing what they do.

I just feel that the alignment system penalizes you for killing someone, which in a PvP game is what its all about. I am in a smaller guild and hope that we can find a nice safe spot to farm phat loot, and play a part in the player based geo/political struggles.

[Lysandor]

This should mean that the players are the real competitors in the game. An alignment system restricts PvP. In the real world there is no alignment, just because you are a terrorist doesn't mean you are evil, "freedom fighter" or something I guess.

No if anything that proves the alignment system right. To the people you attack you are an evil bastard, to the people who support you...you aren't.

[Sarisei]

I just feel that the alignment system penalizes you for killing someone, which in a PvP game is what its all about.

You're right, it does penalize you somewhat. Which is what this PvP game is all about. Running around and pointlessly slaughtering other players is not what it's about here. It's about realism (to a point) and killing people has consequences. In other words, it's the devs way of making people think about and consider their actions and preventing rampant PKing. Darkfall is much more than just a PvP game afterall.

I am in a smaller guild and hope that we can find a nice safe spot to farm phat loot, and play a part in the player based geo/political struggles.

Now here you're getting on the right track. PvP is just one aspect of the game and shouldn't be the central focus in my opinion. The politics, again, in my opinion, are the central force in the game. PvP will happen because of them, alliances will be made according to them, and cities will rise and fall over them.

This game is really taking things and making people think outside the box. That goes for PvPers as well as PvE's.

[Seaelf]

yea, it's an evolving game-niche, hope it works. Sounds like the player run cities wont have to worry about alignment anyway, but will be able to be "evil" alignment. I was just thinking about the focus and interest of the pvp. Like in L2 where you had to get the kill shot in before the guy's name turned white. You had a bunch of people standing around saying, "Don't make me go red on your sissy a$$!"

It's all good I'm a carebear in RL :p
(and trying to post my a$$ off so I can get into beta !!! I only have off one day a week atm)

[Nalira]

I think darkfall has pulled off the best pvp system to date.

i love how some people say statements like these... the game isnt even out, dude... 'it has the greatest PvP system to date', yet u havent even played the game?... thats like me saying 'becoming intoxicated is the greatest thing in the world', without ever touching a joint or drinking some beer... and all i have to base my statement on, is other people's word on it and seeing others do it... i dont like how people judge this game already... most people are saying its gonna be extremely uber and what not..and hell i really hope its going to be too.. but people might get a huge let down after they actually PLAY the game. Take the screenshots, the videos, and people's opinions for what it's worth.. but dont make pretenses.

and this is nothing against you, Knight, it's just against everyone in general who are making assumptions... the only people's word we can take on this, are the devs..and im pretty sure theyre gonna be just a bit biased.

[SSguy]

I have been posting on the DDO site (dungeons and dragons online), and everytime someone says anything about PvP they say, "Take it to another game." LOL anyway, most of the people I talk to want to play darkfall because of the PvP.

This should mean that the players are the real competitors in the game. An alignment system restricts PvP. In the real world there is no alignment, just because you are a terrorist doesn't mean you are evil, "freedom fighter" or something I guess.

If you get ganked you have to do something about it. Join a zerg guild or whatever. If you want PvE play a different game IMO.

Oh the hypocracy.......Ignorance must be bliss.

[Speady]

i love how some people say statements like these... the game isnt even out, dude... 'it has the greatest PvP system to date', yet u havent even played the game?... thats like me saying 'becoming intoxicated is the greatest thing in the world', without ever touching a joint or drinking some beer... and all i have to base my statement on, is other people's word on it and seeing others do it... i dont like how people judge this game already... most people are saying its gonna be extremely uber and what not..and hell i really hope its going to be too.. but people might get a huge let down after they actually PLAY the game. Take the screenshots, the videos, and people's opinions for what it's worth.. but dont make pretenses.

and this is nothing against you, Knight, it's just against everyone in general who are making assumptions... the only people's word we can take on this, are the devs..and im pretty sure theyre gonna be just a bit biased.

yess.. I love everything you said and I aggree people do make statements on the game when they didnt even play it.. you have my respect =)

[osi]

<@Claus|Dev> no thats super stupid

[Seaelf]

Oh the hypocracy.......Ignorance must be bliss.

Not really bliss, ignorant YES because I dont know what the F*** you are talking about. Happy ?

ps. F*** YOU

[Seaelf]

ooops I got frustrated. My bad, sorry.

I think I might have figured out what the contended point is, instead of posting a quote and how smart you are, maybe actually explain yourself.

I was talking about alignment system in general. Instead of an alignment system in DF where the town guards of a certain race would be biased (through an alignment system) to characters that have killed alot of that particluar race. So not a pvp alignment factor but a particular racial kill alignment factor.)

Hollar back !!! :eek:

[Terran.Priest]

ok, i'm not up to par yet with DF.

but is the Alignment System something they are actually planning ?

i have finished reading the FAQ at warcry's and DF's site, but i haven't seen anything about the Alignment System.

it doesn't sound so bad, but where could i get more info about what it is in terms with DF ?

[aote]

Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer. These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

God why are you even here. The devs have come to their senses, and are giving us the full loot PvP system we crave. If you cant handle it go play elsewhere please.

I; nor majority of the people on this board have duped, or exploited anything. Have you looked at the guilds coming to this game. These are not cheaters. These are some of the best guilds out there, some of the best players as well. The open PvP full loot is the perfect counter to the griefer, it allows you to kill them as well.

[Cecil]

If theres one thing that's going to bring this game down it will be the the alignment system. You can't really have a PvP game where PK'ing (PvP'ing) will give you negative results.

I strongly disagree with putting karma systems into PvP games, that's another reason why Shadowbane was so amazing (idea wise). You could PvP and still shop in town like every other player. I have not played a PvP game yet that has a Karma system in which the system is abused, and I have played them all.

[Vinadil]

From Cecil, "Shadowbane was so amazing ... You could shop."

Hahahahahaha... ehhh hah, heh... whew. This whole mindset is one that I can gladly do without. You are still stuck somehow on a wierd notion that dealing with NPC's brings a meaningful experience to a game.

It that is what you are looking for, then I think there might be better avenues to explore. But, what really makes your statement funny is that you seem to be a RPK, kill-em all person that also thinks the ability to SHOP in town is what makes the game ROCK!

[terrorx]

A lot of the posts in this thread are mere speculation.

Until final release, there is no telling what will happen. I like the restrictions in place, and on paper, it would make playing a truly evil/chaotic character/guild that much more challenging.

Alignments are great, especially if they're more than simply getting certain items as WoW has theirs setup currently.

When Alignment effects travel and game play at every turn, you get a realistic feel for the game. Ergo, if you're a terrorist, you are not going to have the freedom of movement that you would if you were a national hero.

I can only speculate as to what the game will be like, and I feel that we only have breadcrumbs to go off currently. As the game nears release, we can further hypothesize as to the ingenuity and depth of the game's mechanics, even in relation to alignment. But from what I've read, it's ingenious.

[Cecil]

From Cecil, "Shadowbane was so amazing ... You could shop."

Hahahahahaha... ehhh hah, heh... whew. This whole mindset is one that I can gladly do without. You are still stuck somehow on a wierd notion that dealing with NPC's brings a meaningful experience to a game.

It that is what you are looking for, then I think there might be better avenues to explore. But, what really makes your statement funny is that you seem to be a RPK, kill-em all person that also thinks the ability to SHOP in town is what makes the game ROCK!

Easy there chief, you may be able to read but not comprehend. It's ok though let me help you out. The meaning of my post was most karma systems can be abused in which it hurts the way you intereact with all npc's not just vendors, smarts.

[Vinadil]

Well... let me fix your sentence structure, then what you wrote might make more sense to you... only takes changing one period.

"I strongly disagree with putting karma systems into PvP games(.) That's another reason why Shadowbane was so amazing (idea wise); you could PvP and still shop in town like every other player."

The thing is, you talk about the alignment system and its affect on NPC relations, and how 'karma' systems are abused. I merely pointed out that this is ONLY true of systems in which dependance upon NPC's is high... say SB or L2 or WoW or some such.

I was never a fan of "safe cities" in SB, L2 is such a trash system it is really not even worth using as a discussion point, and WoW alignment is completely NPC-centric.

In SB you could NOT just PvP as you wanted and shop in ANY city, only the safe-cities. Even some of the player-run trade/training cities had Kill lists for their guards. That is my point. Alignment only affects NPC relation really, and that only affects the people who hang around NPC cities... which will be the noobs or the solo/small-time crafter/trader folks. If you want to 'abuse' the karma system by figuring out a way to gain access to the starter area AND PvP... go ahead, the rest of us will play the game in the wilds where it is meant to be played... with Player control, not NPC cities.

[Anthius Disius]

God why are you even here. The devs have come to their senses, and are giving us the full loot PvP system we crave. If you cant handle it go play elsewhere please.

I; nor majority of the people on this board have duped, or exploited anything. Have you looked at the guilds coming to this game. These are not cheaters. These are some of the best guilds out there, some of the best players as well. The open PvP full loot is the perfect counter to the griefer, it allows you to kill them as well.

Amen, i completely agree

[Zitto]

Im excited about the way this seems to be setup now. At the start of UO it was something to walk out of town as the reds used to camp around the citys. As a newb. you knew if you walked out of town you were fair game.
I can remember cussing at them dam reds for killing me all the time. But it made the game fun!
When i went to purchase UO in 98 ill never forget the guy at the counter asked me "are you sure you want to buy this? It kinda sucks that you get all your stuff and get killed for it" I didnt have a clue what he was talking about at that time, but now i know one thing. He was the comming of the Carebear in 98' , so i went to the store a year ago and kicked his ass. He tryed to run to a safe zone but couldnt find one! afterwards i took his lunch and the UO action figure he had. Now thats real life for you! :D
And any game that dosent have that built in is a waste.

The day they took that from UO the game went down hill. And i wont even get into the whole carebear land they created. How can anyone enjoy that style of play? The world has good and bad, and without it its just lame. If one wants to cross the bridge, they should have to pay! :D If one sees a full dead body in the woods and wants to loot, they should first have to check to see if anyone is invis. this is just two examples of 100's of creative things that made the game great. If you dont have that, you have no imagination which in turns ='s a brain dead game.

[Lysandor]

God why are you even here. The devs have come to their senses, and are giving us the full loot PvP system we crave. If you cant handle it go play elsewhere please.

Unless I am mistaken, he hasn't been here in over a year.

[Cecil]

Well... let me fix your sentence structure, then what you wrote might make more sense to you... only takes changing one period.

"I strongly disagree with putting karma systems into PvP games(.) That's another reason why Shadowbane was so amazing (idea wise); you could PvP and still shop in town like every other player."

The thing is, you talk about the alignment system and its affect on NPC relations, and how 'karma' systems are abused. I merely pointed out that this is ONLY true of systems in which dependance upon NPC's is high... say SB or L2 or WoW or some such.

I was never a fan of "safe cities" in SB, L2 is such a trash system it is really not even worth using as a discussion point, and WoW alignment is completely NPC-centric.

In SB you could NOT just PvP as you wanted and shop in ANY city, only the safe-cities. Even some of the player-run trade/training cities had Kill lists for their guards. That is my point. Alignment only affects NPC relation really, and that only affects the people who hang around NPC cities... which will be the noobs or the solo/small-time crafter/trader folks. If you want to 'abuse' the karma system by figuring out a way to gain access to the starter area AND PvP... go ahead, the rest of us will play the game in the wilds where it is meant to be played... with Player control, not NPC cities.

a) My sentence structure was just fine.

b) You didn't point out anything, you just made a trolling post that was down right ridiculous. You took my post out of context and made some asshat comments.

c) Did you play SB? Not only could you could you PvP as you wanted and shop in any NPC city you could also do it in pretty much every single player made city, player city guards were a joke.

d) Your statement "Alignment only affects NPC relation really, and that only affects the people who hang around NPC cities." is moronic at best. There are countless reasons people will be at NPC cities, that does not mean they hang around them.

c) "If you want to 'abuse' the karma system by figuring out a way to gain access to the starter area AND PvP... go ahead, the rest of us will play the game in the wilds where it is meant to be played... with Player control, not NPC cities." This is pretty narrow minded there champ, not everyone is going to be in a guild that has a city right away and there will be ways to bend karma systems into working for you. ie griefing someone until they attack/kill you then using guards on you and/or causing the npcs to not interact with you. Or how about going on a rampage killing several people then grinding away your bad karma. These types of systems never work and are always exploited in some way, always. Take out the karma systems and let players deal the punishment.

Anything else?

[Ajax]

well my thinking on online mmo's is this:

You are there to interact with other players, not mobs. You can do that offline and not pay monthly for it.


Personally, i think the focus should be on building guilds and communities. Having played a few games the one thing i have found is that if you want people to stay then give them a link. IF you build a good guild system and a strong means of connecting folks they will stay with the game longer and thru more problems.
That being said interguild rivalry is as key to guild building as anything. Thus why I thinka relative alignment system would be brilliant.

I can agree with alignment but logically it does not make sense beyond clan boundries. Even now crimes in one country do not transfer to others (ex. non extradition countries) and things done in war times are often let go.

Basically it works like this. If my guild has never met yours we fall unto racial lines. racial competitors are naturally considered hostile. but this can change when officers in the guild interact and both sides change the status(in the case of enemies becoming peaceful) or either side can set (increase hostilities)

Now every time there is an interaction with a guild it adds to a counter. soif i kill you, your guild gets +1 animosity to mine. For every trade it gets -1 so each guild has a list of all others it interacts with. this would promote guild play and rivalry....

When a guildmember kills someone who is set to "allied" he is listed as hostile to even those inside the guild.

This system allows for politics and people to be agressive but they as a guild are responsible. If the leadership allows people to kill indescriminantly, they can be held accountable

[Mawar]

I am surprised anyone would take exception to the basic tenent that griefers tend to be dupers, hackers, and sploiters.

griefers tend to be dupers, hackers, and sploiters????

so just kuz i like to PK an idiot all day long means im out duping hacking and spoiting ? NO NO NO my friend PK is fun fun FUN while duping hacking ans spoiting is usualy VERY boreing and if i want boreing PS2 and Xbox that are gathering dust in the liveing room wouldnt be.

now ive been called carebear for talking rather then PKing but when it comes down to it i understand OPEN PvP better then most kill any idiot that desperately needs it doesnt matter if he is on your 'side' or not L2 may not be the best for that but beats SWG and WoW (instanced PvP is for carebears) and if the same idiot is pking me i know i can always ask for assistance from others the old "PKer at such and such location" is always good some robin hood or knight in shineing armour is likely to run to your defence well at least to PK the idoit for the thrill

you really need to get out of the bubble errr box you live in and realize that 95% of the PKers want conflict driven by PLAYERS and not DEVS nothing and i mean NOTHING is more annoying then haveing a GM interfere directly with game play if i wanted some one to hold my hand and say what i can and cannot do id live in a police state (read 1943 germany) i dont want the GM to interfere EVER but if 20-30 players want to do something GREAT thats freaking awesome and is what these games are about if you cant wrap your brain around that go play EQ2 or maybe thats to tuff for you try WoW consentual PvP only when and where you want me id rather get ganked in a 'safe' spot then have to get in an instance for some good PvP

thats just me and my 2 cents

[ngonzogo]

One thing about racial alignment and NPC's(hired guards, player-town vendors, etc). These NPC's will regard others races as evil regardless of clan alignment. This will affect multi-racial clans. For example, human NPC's will not be friendly to Orks in the clan's town. Yes, clans will have control over aspects of alignment but from what I understand clans won't be able to override basic racial bias. Someone posted something about this saying clans should be able to control their npc's. Think of it this way. The people in the game loyal to the clan are the clan members. NPC's are hirelings, not loyal to the clan per se and live in the general world alignment system. I know there are people who won't like this(and maybe DF has modified their position on this since the posts I read) but it makes sense if you consider DF a world the NPC's live in and the NPC's are more that pets.

[Aflac]

The alignment system is interesting, as long as we aren't restricted from killing other guilds of our race :)

[VoodooVane]

Why are you here? You obviously are not cut out for the world of Darkfall.

Why come to a game that has been designed for YEARS around 1 concept, when that concept is not compatable with your playstyle? That concept being FULL AND COMPLETE PLAYER FREEDOM, INCLUDING FULL PVP, AND FULL LOOT!!!

Their are Soooooooo many games out, or coming out that have what you so obviously desire but you choose to come here and attempt to ruin the ONE GAME that caters to the PvP crowd. Fer shame!

You are no better then us, yet you act as if you are somehow above those you consider "problematic". This is the worst character trait possible in humanity imo. Your type has ruined game after game after game... You find a game, ruin it, then leave when the game is not fun all the while complaining about how boring the game is. Then you find another game w/ great potential, whine complain and get it ruined then leave because its so boring... Rinse, wash, repeat, over, and over, and over again... Ever wonder why the games aren't fun? Let me fill you in, because you ruined them.



Oh, and BTW the worst trash talk I've ever experianced in games comes from the mouths of carebear pansies like yourself. PvP'rs might talk a little shit, but carebears get personal, and go so far as to wish death on you, or your family. They make me sick!

Couldn't have been said any better!! Lets quote this to all carebears until they leave our game alone or play the game, try to PvP if they want and see how fun it is for themselves, they might like it after all.

[Blackwolf1982]

As to a pk being a carebear, ya lost me a bit there as i was a pk on pac in UO. But like everyone else i agree with the alignment system. It seems to be a compromise that everyone can live with and live well. Much can be said for walking the road less traveled.

shakes

(was Evildead, Ulrich, DrNuttbutter, Nautica on pac... if i knew ya... HI!)

Carebear is better defined as someone who wants to play the game on /easy mode. You can kill all the players you want, your defined as a carebear if you scream because you can't go into a town and sell all that loot you just got.

[Lysandor]

I've said it before, a carebear is anyone who wants to play the game their way without any risk.

[Ravenous]

I'm really wondering if the "there is no wrong way" to skill a character works. WoW offered much of the same thing. I'm just worried about Cookie-cutter builds and such coming out. I mean, i don't mind them too too much, I adapt and conquer.

Just wondering if DFO can pull that off. :ninja:

[Hadyn]

The alignment system may not suck, but this thread does.

[ChewY]

it actually is not a "non rp reason". If i go around mugging people the guards of my city keep me out of it by putting me in jail.

[ChewY]

I've said it before, a carebear is anyone who wants to play the game their way without any risk.

Nope, it doesnt, a carebear is anyone who likes to love and cuddle with other players. By your definition FPS players are carebears despite the way they fight/talk trash/grief other players because they play the game their way without risk. Sorry i never saw that kind of shit in the cartoon.

[The-Nit]

necro post of the months.. gw

[Kilmoran]

I don't know you, so don't take my constructive criticism directly.

I am not certain what your type is, but under the guise of making a game "free" certain types of players are intent on ruining them for everyone. They seem to have surfaced here and be in love with Darkfall. I am surprised anyone would take exception to the basic tenent that griefers tend to be dupers, hackers, and sploiters. If anyone has ruined mmorpgs it is people like-minded to those who are posting here about how players can be freed from game-imposed restraints.

Basically the in-game restraints are like internet fire-walls--they keep chaos at bay. The same reason you have forum moderators--to halt thousands of inane posts that spam a board. I don't think it is too much of a generalization to say that the players who want looting and open PvP are the anti-social element in mmorpgs that ruins them for most other players. II agree with many of you, we certainly can get 60 thousand reasonable roll-palyers onto Darkfall -- but we are also going to get 2 or 3 thousand people intent on distruption, griefing and hacking.

We can stop them, but we need to eleminate open PvP and full looting.

Just what is the problem with the PvP flag. It never seemed to ruin games before? Even in games with the pvP flag you only see about 5% of the player base using it anyway.

This is only a "big deal" to a select minority intent on ruining Darkfall for the rest of us.


Darkfall is all about the very things you are thinking people that come here will ruin it by doing. Aside fro mthe exploiting and cheating and stuff...which will happen in any game, DF is about open PvP... DF is about choices. Why try to change the entire game to suit, so far, you. They have an idle in mind and are persuing it (The devs) and i doubt they will see your reasoning and redesign their entire game because you don't think you'll enjoy it. They already know this game isn't for everyone, which is really the appeal to some others.

[Kilmoran]

My only hope is that if a good aligned person attacks a bad aligned person the bad aligned personc an defend himself, and maybe kill the good aligned person without taking a alignment hit. Thats the thing that bugged me the most about L2. A red can't defend himself without going more red.


..... But if your bad...you killed your own people to be bad...so you basically ASKED to be hunted...so why would you not lose alignment for killing the guy trying to bring you to justice by the sword. If you don't want to lose alignment by defending yourself against good ...don't be evil...

[Kilmoran]

Kaneski, many of the guys in my guild do speak their mind when other players grief them or they realize another guild is using an exploit or hack. We have a very active complaint system that usually gets to a GM or Dev pretty quickly. When you get an email signed by 200+ paying customers you tend to sit up and listen. A number of us are GMs in different games and we are quite organized in making our views (or our whining as so many on this board would put it) known. We generally get action and because we get results we don't usually feel victimized. We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.



Ok...then persue justice yourself... DFO allows it.

[Kilmoran]

*sigh* I never said anything about your rainbow. You can be any alignment of any race. I don't have the time to dig up the post or FAQ for you, but there is an aggressor flag, by flag I mean a coded flag, not something you fly. If you are attacked by someone, you will not have to worry about taking an alignment hit for killing them.

I think the flag is for allies not enemies. Basically i think if a good attacks a good, the one defending can kill witohut penalty as it's defensive. If an evil is attacked by a good (inevitability) then it's alignemtn gain or loss for who ever wins respectively. Other wise the alignemnt system would be slightly broken...as jsut because the good guy your evil character killed got the first hit in...you didn't earn any more evil.


Edit: I just noticed my replies are from way way early in this thread so i'm gonna stop here and i apologize.

[Fylraen]

I don't think this will happen at all. The whole point of Darkfall is to "harass" the enemy race as much as possible. If I'm a dwarf and I have a hankering for fresh Ork meat at the end of my axe, so be it. Will I be able to waltz into Ork territory and run right up to the newbie hunting areas near their racial capital and start swinging? If I'm lucky enough to make it there more than likely I wouldn't live past my first swing. If anyone sees me, every Ork within a hundred mile radius will know where I'm at and want to kill me. On top of that there will be Ork guards running around everywhere.

Besides, I bet you anything any Ork "newbies" would attack me at first sight just to get the chance to kill their first dwarf.


This is exactly it - this is why the alignment system is great.

It doesn't just stop griefing, it gives each race a goal to focus on: kill your enemies, not your friends. If you're a dwarf and you want to go grief an orc somewhere, rock and roll. Just don't grief other dwarfs... At least not TOO much.

If one really absolutely MUST kill everything in sight, well, the game won't stop you from doing that. It's just going to suck for you when you try to enter the big cities. And "evil" cities, if they even manage to be built, are going to be a lot less productive than "good" ones - it's hard to grow food or smith or research spells when people are chopping your head off.

I love the potential in the alignment system - it's the biggest factor that keeps me hooked on this game after four or five years or whatever.

Edit: Haha, I love going back and realizing that a thread is 2 years old! Whee! Still, I mean what I said!

[Warrior]

An alignment system protects the low lifes by making it so common players cant intervene on thier actions which the alignment system certainly wont stop. I know everyone is so gung ho about the cool racial capitials but honestly you have to realize the racial capitials will be sewer-lands of this game for exactly this reason. If you want a civilized area build it yourself. If the NPC controlled alignment system affects much outside of the racial capititals then i think it will be a failure.

[Kilmoran]

An alignment system protects the low lifes by making it so common players cant intervene on thier actions which the alignment system certainly wont stop. I know everyone is so gung ho about the cool racial capitials but honestly you have to realize the racial capitials will be sewer-lands of this game for exactly this reason. If you want a civilized area build it yourself. If the NPC controlled alignment system affects much outside of the racial capititals then i think it will be a failure.


How exactly does the alignemnt system protect low lives by stoping others from intervening?

[Darkmatter]

Can`t we kill criminals legally ?

[zlurp]

yea killing criminals will increase ur alignment.. im wondering tho, wat happens if a human goes to a mirdain city. in the city a mirdain attacks him and then in self defence the human kills the mirdain. who will take the alignment hit??

i know that ppl will say it doesnt matter if u kill just one cos tat wont make u completely evil straight away, but wat if that human was right on the verge of being evil. if the human then takes the hit the city npcs will att him..

[Geminireaper]

wow nothing like drudging up a 4 month old topic.

[Lysandor]

The alignment system may not suck, but this thread does.

Then don't post in it.

[Lysandor]

Nope, it doesnt, a carebear is anyone who likes to love and cuddle with other players. By your definition FPS players are carebears despite the way they fight/talk trash/grief other players because they play the game their way without risk. Sorry i never saw that kind of shit in the cartoon.

Got Clue?

FPS players risk dying in a game where simply dying lowers your score, its called a Kill to Death Ratio.

[InphiniteZ]

I think it is a good idea to have the alignment system, hopefully it is implemented properly in order to achieve its goal.

What I was thinking of for myself, was to have my main character that will not really be based on caring about alignments and have an alt as my crafter.

I plan on testing that theory :P

[Drakkyn]

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

My guild is entirely comprised of mature players that like to kill. We do so within game limits. The problem griefers you are describing will be in any game no matter what; the more rules created will only further restrict those that follow them.

The world is big enough to avoid the .01% of the populous that are a$$hats.

[Uggnugg]

Without conflict there can not be story. Without risk reward grows pale. The Worst form of player abuse is for a group of people to have no tools to stop it. Darkfall give me a world that I can live in in my free time. Giver each group the same tools, but with a diferent artistic look. And then start working on expansions the breaht more life into the game. No switches, just cause and effect. Fear is a spice that has been too long from MMRPG's

[Mossa]

Yust readed some of the posts and it seems that some is fore "kill whatever you whant and nothing happens". Even in our world you cant do that "If you dont have alot of money it seems". You will be hunt down by the local lawinforcers. To add this in MMO's you need some form of aligment so players know if you are an murderer or flowershop keeper. Maybe even your own Wanted sign.

If I start go pk frenzy I expect to be punished fore it later. Like not able to enter citys cos im an bloody murderer damit.

Thats why people make war on other people so they can kill and steel from them lawfully.

Sorry fore my bad english...

[Armstrong[DiE]]

I don't know you, so don't take my constructive criticism directly.

I am not certain what your type is, but under the guise of making a game "free" certain types of players are intent on ruining them for everyone. They seem to have surfaced here and be in love with Darkfall. I am surprised anyone would take exception to the basic tenent that griefers tend to be dupers, hackers, and sploiters. If anyone has ruined mmorpgs it is people like-minded to those who are posting here about how players can be freed from game-imposed restraints.

Basically the in-game restraints are like internet fire-walls--they keep chaos at bay. The same reason you have forum moderators--to halt thousands of inane posts that spam a board. I don't think it is too much of a generalization to say that the players who want looting and open PvP are the anti-social element in mmorpgs that ruins them for most other players. II agree with many of you, we certainly can get 60 thousand reasonable roll-palyers onto Darkfall -- but we are also going to get 2 or 3 thousand people intent on distruption, griefing and hacking.

We can stop them, but we need to eleminate open PvP and full looting.

Just what is the problem with the PvP flag. It never seemed to ruin games before? Even in games with the pvP flag you only see about 5% of the player base using it anyway.

This is only a "big deal" to a select minority intent on ruining Darkfall for the rest of us.

ROFL you sir dont have a clue what player justice or pvp is about.

"that griefers tend to be dupers, hackers, and sploiters" <again rofl who told you this ur grandmom?

Its people like you that create grifers out of people, who can stop themselfs to follow you around and grief you, youre house, youre pets etc. I certainly cant.

[Big Harv]

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses.

FUCK THAT SHIT MAN. THIS GAME WAS MADE FOR US!

[Armstrong[DiE]]

[QUOTE=Phineus]CareBear?!? What exactly have you people been missing? DF = PvP
Don't cry like a bunch of little girls, be like real big boys and girls and handle things your self. As Arath said this is going to be a game where if your having a problem with someone you deal with it, some jerk kills your friend/group member anything you are free to take vengeance upon him for eternity if you should deem necessary. The Dev's are pvp'ers who finally get to make a game for them selves and most likely aren

[baronzilch]

What you said there is absurd. If I don't want to participate in PvP, it is my choice. Just because I don't want some weenie to sneak up behind me while I am in the middle of a battle and low on health to PK me, doesn't make me a carebear. If I want to deal with that kind of mentality I could just as easily hop in my car and hit the local freeway. There are plenty of people there that will cut me off, box me in and then pace me, etc. The fact is the basic nature of the average person nowdays is crap. And I don't log into a game to deal with that, I PAY to play a game cause it is supposed to be fun. What is fun for you might not be fun to me. Play Lineage 2 and you will see people that farm money to sell it for US dollars. Money comes easier at lower levels so when a farmer gets out of the good money making range he will delevel. So it is no loss at all for a farmer to die, hence when they go on a PK rampage when you finally kill them that is what they wanted, they lost nothing. But for all the people they PK they lost time. It isn't even rewarding to kill somebody like that. Games are supposed to be fun, not a second job. I certainly wouldn't PAY to take on a second job, and I don't know many people that would.

Sorry pal, you are a carebear. Consensual vs non-consensual PvP is a major factor in determining carebeardom. And there is nothing wrong with being a carebear, it's just a different style of play, I respect that, but you will have to come to terms that not every game is for you and your playstyle (just like I have had to deal with in most other games). DF happens to be for the non-consensual crowd. Get used to it and get over it, or play one of the dozens of MMOs out there that cater to your playstyle.

Kaneski, many of the guys in my guild do speak their mind when other players grief them or they realize another guild is using an exploit or hack. We have a very active complaint system that usually gets to a GM or Dev pretty quickly. When you get an email signed by 200+ paying customers you tend to sit up and listen. A number of us are GMs in different games and we are quite organized in making our views (or our whining as so many on this board would put it) known. We generally get action and because we get results we don't usually feel victimized. We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.

I never camp, I don't like picking on lowbies and have never hacked, duped or anything of that ilk. But I game for the excitement of non-consensual PvP. In my experience through 16 mmos, most hardcore PvPers prefer to let their skill do the talking. A lot of open PvPers actually like a reason to PvP (politics, territory etc.) and can accept consequences for their actions. This game is being made for this type of player.

If you can accept open pvp/loot then I welcome you and your clan to come and help weed out the exploiters and harrassers, we all hate them, but while you are emailing devs I will will be hunting the griefers down and burning their towns. My way sounds infinitely more fun to me.

I think it is dropping it right down something other than a well.

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me. The PvP flag system works fine--if you want to PvP you can. you just can't abuse other players.

Why can't you see the obvious?

There are so many good games that cater to the "don't bother me" crowd, why on earth are you even here?

[MrFun]

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

So we come to a happy medium. The Alignment System let's the Carebears on one side have their PvP, without totally sentencing the Carebears on the other side to eternal death.

It allows everyone more freedom, without totally making the game in any one group's favor.

No No, you forgot something Lysandor... You forgot the people who don't care about being red. The people who kill 24/7 and dont care because they have guildies to support them. Also the people with 2 accounts. They dont care either. There is no absolute happiness. The gamming industry is still the gamming industry. They are here to make money and keep people playing their games. Thats their goal. Hencfourth not every rule can be absolute and wonderful. They wont work themselves to death to fix every hole in the rules. Because they know theres allyways going to be people who are dumb enough not to know, and other people who just don't care. They will still get there money.

Thats my doom-say. Maybe Im just in a bad mood.

[chlor0]

I'm completely for open pvp/loot, which is the reason I plan on coming to DF online. I would not be looking at DF if pvp had restrictions. Please dont attempt to ruin something that so many players have been waiting years and years for. You can't make everyone happy in this world, let alone in MMORPG's. I am personally sick and tired of all of the watered down MMO's that try to cater and appeal to a broad fanbase rather than give a select fan base exactly what they are looking for. To this, I take my hat off to the DF dev's by following their vision and giving so many of us gamers exactly what we have been looking for, for the past few years. Do you think movie producers that create disgustingly gruesome horror films such as Saw care if people into romance and drama films watch their movie? There are hundreds of other games that cater to the needs of consentual pvp and people who's primary interest in a game is safely hunting 150 rabbits w/ their pals in order to obtain the flaming blue greatsword of rabbit slaying without getting killed. Risk/Reward is where its at. ;)

[Slinkinator]

I'm completely for open pvp/loot, which is the reason I plan on coming to DF online. I would not be looking at DF if pvp had restrictions. Please dont attempt to ruin something that so many players have been waiting years and years for. You can't make everyone happy in this world, let alone in MMORPG's. I am personally sick and tired of all of the watered down MMO's that try to cater and appeal to a broad fanbase rather than give a select fan base exactly what they are looking for. To this, I take my hat off to the DF dev's by following their vision and giving so many of us gamers exactly what we have been looking for, for the past few years. Do you think movie producers that create disgustingly gruesome horror films such as Saw care if people into romance and drama films watch their movie? There are hundreds of other games that cater to the needs of consentual pvp and people who's primary interest in a game is safely hunting 150 rabbits w/ their pals in order to obtain the flaming blue greatsword of rabbit slaying without getting killed. Risk/Reward is where its at. ;)


so are you against or for tis?

in the end this doesn't stop pvp, it just stops a little ibt of griefing, and makes the game better as a whole.

someone quoted the devs saying it's possible to make new characters at random wilderness stones or something, if you have so much evil you're new char would be auto attacked.

where'd u find that?

[BlueLion70]

Compromise. DFO is going to feature non consentual PvP (aka PK). Obviously this is taking the safety level of the game and dropping it down a well.

Carebears want absolutes, they want things easy. This includes both sides of the whole PvP deal. The people that hate PvP so much because it will hurt their powergamer schedule, or even their pride that their character isn't a big hero, and on the other side, those players who want to be able to kill anyone anywhere with no lasting consequences.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

So we come to a happy medium. The Alignment System let's the Carebears on one side have their PvP, without totally sentencing the Carebears on the other side to eternal death.

It allows everyone more freedom, without totally making the game in any one group's favor.

Consequences are good. The Alignment System is about the only non RP way to add the element of law to DFO. The real 'hardcore' players will sit confortable doing what they do, but not with the total freedom to do it absolute.

Face it. Many players spend their game time trying to ruin it for other people. Few people role play in a similar enough style to make abolishing something like the Alignment System a good idea.

The Carebears on one side are balanced with the Carebears on the other side.

PvPers who call for the removal of the Alignment System are as much a Carebear as the people who want consentual PvP. The true hardcore players are the ones who work with consequences and accept them for their actions.

QFT, best post ever. Very sussinctly put and well said. Kudos to you, Lysandor!

[Lysandor]

Thanks, I wish I could sticky it somehow.

[Apewall]

so are you against or for tis?

in the end this doesn't stop pvp, it just stops a little ibt of griefing, and makes the game better as a whole.

someone quoted the devs saying it's possible to make new characters at random wilderness stones or something, if you have so much evil you're new char would be auto attacked.

where'd u find that?

Alignment system = doesn't stop griefing, it stops people from killing for real reasons, and gives people an excuse to kill for no reason.(Real reason = I want you equipment, your name sucks, you are standing too close to me - Excuse to kill - not aligned to your race.)

[Lysandor]

Alignment system = doesn't stop griefing, it stops people from killing for real reasons, and gives people an excuse to kill for no reason.(Real reason = I want you equipment, your name sucks, you are standing too close to me - Excuse to kill - not aligned to your race.)

The alignment system sure as hell won't stop me from killing someone if I want to kill someone. It's all part of that 'accepting the consquences' thing.

[Apewall]

The alignment system sure as hell won't stop me from killing someone if I want to kill someone. It's all part of that 'accepting the consquences' thing.

The consequences are not the problem, the problem is the alignment system actually helps random player killings, not prevent them. Its just a crutch to give these players someone to kill.

[[DJ]Hugo]

Great Post OP, 10/10.

People please stop saying that this is a bad move, its 2007 and games can't be wild anymore. It makes no sense for me to walk out of a human town (as a human) and for 2 humans to just shoot me down, take my shit, and walk back into town.

I know lore shouldnt REALLY effect gameplay, but its just common sense to stop that happening. It adds depth to the game....race vs race and the arac murderer guilds lurking around. Its actually perfect. They're catering slightly for the mediocre carebear crowd, but I don't understand how it's hurting Hardcore PvPers.

Surely if your so up for the idea of being able to kill anyone and everyone, then being KOS to all races and living on the wild side won't hurt you then will it? I don't see how it effects your gameplay at all.

I fully intend on playing a pure PK and killing everything I see, so by trying to remove this system your actually hurting my fucking gameplay. I wanna feel the risk and adrenaline and feel the spotlight on me. I don't want to be part of Darkfall Tournament 2007.

[Brett]

Compromise. DFO is going to feature non consentual PvP (aka PK). Obviously this is taking the safety level of the game and dropping it down a well.

Carebears want absolutes, they want things easy. This includes both sides of the whole PvP deal. The people that hate PvP so much because it will hurt their powergamer schedule, or even their pride that their character isn't a big hero, and on the other side, those players who want to be able to kill anyone anywhere with no lasting consequences.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

So we come to a happy medium. The Alignment System let's the Carebears on one side have their PvP, without totally sentencing the Carebears on the other side to eternal death.

It allows everyone more freedom, without totally making the game in any one group's favor.

Consequences are good. The Alignment System is about the only non RP way to add the element of law to DFO. The real 'hardcore' players will sit confortable doing what they do, but not with the total freedom to do it absolute.

Face it. Many players spend their game time trying to ruin it for other people. Few people role play in a similar enough style to make abolishing something like the Alignment System a good idea.

The Carebears on one side are balanced with the Carebears on the other side.

PvPers who call for the removal of the Alignment System are as much a Carebear as the people who want consentual PvP. The true hardcore players are the ones who work with consequences and accept them for their actions.

The only problem is, the current racial alignment system wont punish PKs, it will punish people who are considered to be fighting the "enemy". A system to accomplish what you've mentioned would be one with simply reds and blues, murderers and innocents.

[[DJ]Hugo]

The only problem is, the current racial alignment system wont punish PKs, it will punish people who are considered to be fighting the "enemy". A system to accomplish what you've mentioned would be one with simply reds and blues, murderers and innocents.

Agreed. Even implement a faction system where you could join your racial army if you wished to fight other racial soldiers. That would allow races to choose if they wish to be at war with eachother. The Murder system would take care of the open ended PvP. People not part of the faction could wander around where ever they pleased, which would actually bring more realism to the game.

Dwarf merchant walks down a forrest road looking for travellers to sell his wears too, he spots 2 alfar taking a pleasant evenning strole. "Hey would you like so-

A dwarf dies

3 Cheer for not alienating the playerbase! /sarcasm. Why not just make all enemy races speak in a language you can't understand, and give'em all perma red names. Oooh and call Mahirim Tauren instead.

*EDIT* I've actually completely publically changed my mind by accident hah. Alignment system has flaws but the proposal above is the best move but I can't see them changing it this close to beta.

[Ovtivon]

Whoa an almost 3 year old thread :lmao:
I think while the alignment system is a bit flawed it actually makes the game more interesting and it is better to have one than none at all. I predict that this thread will end when DFO comes out.

[Brett]

Can someone explain what the game would be like if there were only one race? It seems like everyone would just be PKing eachother.... Then how come this didn't happen in UO? (yep, i'm citing UO again, check the polls, UO will influence DFO the most)

You guys really don't know anything about PKs.

[[DJ]Hugo]

Can someone explain what the game would be like if there were only one race? It seems like everyone would just be PKing eachother.... Then how come this didn't happen in UO? (yep, i'm citing UO again, check the polls, UO will influence DFO the most)

You guys really don't know anything about PKs.

I wouldn't say that, I've PKd on UO since 1999 - 2006. And even in 1998 people did PK eachother, infact everyone just killed everyone. They didn't make trammel for no reason. Things can't ever be the same as UO pre-trammel. Well they could but goodluck running a MMO with a healthy enough playerbase to pay the bills and pay the companies wages...not to mention profit.

I'm not arguing against a murder system, I'm arguing against no system. All I'm saying that this game isn't just what us PKs want it to be, its exactly how the devs want it to be. Are job is to comment and give feedback on the decisions they make and offer new ones. They're making a faction Realm v Realm game and at this late stage it's pretty pointless for us to question that. All we can do is give feedback on ways inwhich we could make that better.

The main problem is that it's basically going to insight mindless killing of any and all enemy races. Whilst that to me is a good thing, I'm fully aware of how much of a problem it will be as it will alienate cross race interaction very much in the way that WoW will. But then again over the years I've interacted a great deal with enemy factions in UO.

Look it's not the worst thing that could happen, Darkfalls definatly going to be awesome. Alignment isn't game breaking, it's just a slightly different kind of game now. Everyone on forumfall has seemed to make their own mind up about Darkfall and criticise the decisions the developers make.

If the game had no real v realm and was simply a murder system, then it would only take a few weeks for posts saying 'Make the game Race vs Race!'. Race vs Race will add so much more PvP action to the game vs a Criminal/Red system will. And it'll stop 80% of the playerbase moaning when they're slaughtered daily.

I think the balance is getting the game right, so we never hear a 'Trammel' thread on the forums. If a large portion of a businesses customers want something and the investors see that the game's losing players...you get it.

[Lysandor]

The consequences are not the problem, the problem is the alignment system actually helps random player killings, not prevent them. Its just a crutch to give these players someone to kill.

Pardon this late reply, but how is the alignment system going to help random killing?

[Xzi]

Pardon this late reply, but how is the alignment system going to help random killing?
That's a good question. Not worthy of a necro, however. :bang:

[Lysandor]

That's a good question. Not worthy of a necro, however. :bang:

It's my thread. Would you rather I reposted the entire thing like everyone else?

[Vinadil]

When most people think alignment they are thinking WoW, Lineage, or some similar game that turns people "red". I have a feeling it will be much less like those games and more like the complex, sliding scale that EVE presents to us. If the alignment system turns out to be a bad thing, it will only be because the developers coded it poorly, not because the idea is broken.

[Lysandor]

Definately, you earn your alignment through a lot of actions...good or bad.

[Spades Felligan]

The ugly truth of the matter is that one needs every type of player, carebears included, to have a successful MMO. Hence, there'll be some type of compromise. I like Darkfall's system over EVE's, since it still allows for Race vs Race combat without penalty. But, anyways, I'm planning to be red to everyone, so it doesn't really matter for me.

[Lysandor]

Yep, an MMO that any type of player can enjoy is the best kind.

Infact the only way DFO could be more perfect is if it was sci fi and not just another fantasyland. But then again, if the fantasy setting is the worst thing about the game, it will be the best game ever.

[Krydon]

The people that hate PvP so much because it will hurt their powergamer schedule, or even their pride that their character isn't a big hero, and on the other side, those players who want to be able to kill anyone anywhere with no lasting consequences.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

Flaw.

When one person wants the right to kill everyone, they are giving up their own security. It's not something for nothing.

The true carebear who hates PvP wants protection, and they give up nothing because they'll play the game the same way they play any other game, living in a case and crafting chairs or farming NPC's.

Still, if murder hurts your alignment, I see nothing wrong with it. No one should be protected from PvP, however. That's why DF is going to be so great.

[Lysandor]

Flaw.

I love it when people pick up my gauntlets.

When one person wants the right to kill everyone, they are giving up their own security. It's not something for nothing.

Well not exactly. What happens when you kill Randomme Joe and nobody knows it happened? You gain a little Ebilness right? Alignment is a measure of your character's character, it's not a fuel gauge for how many and which type of people you are allowed to kill.

The most zealous follower of the Light can still kill his closest friend and ally, and he didn't have to turn evil to do it.

The true carebear who hates PvP wants protection, and they give up nothing because they'll play the game the same way they play any other game, living in a case and crafting chairs or farming NPC's.

Well, they give up freedom. They give up the freedom to go places where they can't be protected. The game by design makes even the most seemingly trivial decisions 'life altering'. And choosing to be a pacifist armorsmith has its consequences too.

Noncombatant Carebears usually see open PvP as some personal attack on their playstyle, much the same way Combatant Carebears see any kind of protection as a personal attack on their playstyle.

Still, if murder hurts your alignment, I see nothing wrong with it. No one should be protected from PvP, however. That's why DF is going to be so great.

I agree completely. There should be places of relatively high safety such as your own city, but no silly zone based combat rules which dominate pretty much every other MMO there is.

DFO is going to be great.

[Barbarian]

Bloody hell, old thread brought back to existence... I lol'ed when I saw Bastards Disguised as Sailors, brings back memories.

[Muse]

We should focus our thread making efforts on threatening Adventurines families in order to make them release the game hours, if not days, earlier.

[Lysandor]

I love this thread, it has the core issue of everyone's expectations from their ideal MMO at its most basic denominator.

[Survivor]

actually thats wrong. the person who throws the first blow will take the alignment hit. so if a bad person is attacked he can kill that person without a hit as lond as they attacked first. ( if they miss it doesnt count. they have 2 hit you first).

[zoddwraith]

actually thats wrong. the person who throws the first blow will take the alignment hit. so if a bad person is attacked he can kill that person without a hit as lond as they attacked first. ( if they miss it doesnt count. they have 2 hit you first).

yes who hits or even try to hit must have the "bad" alignment if the target has "good" alignment

[Lysandor]

actually thats wrong. the person who throws the first blow will take the alignment hit. so if a bad person is attacked he can kill that person without a hit as lond as they attacked first. ( if they miss it doesnt count. they have 2 hit you first).

Where does it say different?

[Khael[SUN]]

The alignment system can be described very shortly.

I and alot of other old time pk/pvp'er would prefer the devs didnt interfere with their artificial alignment system. I am sure the devs would also prefer the game that way.

Let the players/community themselves decide who they want to put on their kos lists.

The reason they are going with an alignment system is most importantly to attempt to limit the random killing somehow - by imposing some sort of penalty for iratonal killing / rpk'ing - and secondly to try to encourage racewars/factions.

[Lysandor]

The Alignment System won't apply in most true pvp scenarios. Only in PK scenarios. Which is why it should remain.

No, the two are not the same.

[Mwix]

Kaneski, many of the guys in my guild do speak their mind when other players grief them or they realize another guild is using an exploit or hack. We have a very active complaint system that usually gets to a GM or Dev pretty quickly. When you get an email signed by 200+ paying customers you tend to sit up and listen. A number of us are GMs in different games and we are quite organized in making our views (or our whining as so many on this board would put it) known. We generally get action and because we get results we don't usually feel victimized. We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.

How many people want to sign a petition to ban FlossDragon from DFO?

[tsalin]

A karma/alignment system is necessary in FFA pvp games; the mere consequence of making someone freely attackable by anyone probably won't be enough; it certainly wasn't enough in 1997 UO. The murderer/bounty/statloss mechanics from UO were implemented to lessen rampant opportunistic slayings of "less-than-hardass" players. The karma penalties were necessary to permit some semblance of enjoyment by the portion of the population that enjoyed activities other than PvP all the time. Players that wanted to explore the world, and experiment with character templates that were less than 100% focused on PvP (aka crafters, adventurers, etc.). This kind of design allows a healthy, more well-rounded community.

We should have some functionality in place that will allow crafters and adventurers to enjoy the environment of a persistent FFA pvp world without having them cancel their accounts out of frustration from getting raped all day long. I hope that the size of the world, combined with whatever other design is in store, will remedy this potential downfall.

[Mwix]

People are looking at the game differently then they should-- there is no need for care bears to be afraid of this game. It will be safe enough for crafters, and adventures to play without being set back too often, or at least until they learn to do it right. Players from your *own* race will not be able to randomly attack and kill you without penalty.. from the alignment system.

Which means-- If you are an Orc, why would you kill a fellow Orc? Only to become freely attackable from everyone in your race. Not only that, attackable from races you are already at war with? You will not be allowed to enter cities without being chased away by everyone for being a known murderer.

Imagine that-- a fellow Orc stumbles into town and his alignment is red. The sight of him frightens you, because you're a measly little crafter just finishing up a new suit of armour for a friend. But the people around the forge see him too, and you know those swords you just sold to a couple fellow citizens? They are already in need of repair, because like any crowd it will consume a lone player and turn him into roast beef before you can even realize it.

Its going to be very silly for people to attack those of their own race unless they have a social network already in place.. friends, hide-outs and people they can trust-- to house them, and restock them if they fall in battle. Remember, Darkfall is full loot. It will only affect the people who don't have a home to retreat to full of back up equipment. Which is what your main city is.. full of people you can trust.

You will not see random ganking everywhere. You will be able to place trust in people of your own race-- however it will make racism a factor in the game. Considering there are so.. 'peace treaties' in place, and I am sure the alignment hit for killing an ally is going to be far less significant than killing one of your own. Which sounds horrible, but its a game-- so its kind of neat to dissect the affect it will have in the community.

If you wanna adventure-- stick to where your people live. If you wanna craft-- craft, and sell to your people. Or get daring-- and learn to play a game that is realistic. If you want adventure you need risk. If bandits are willing to pay you to come and stock their hideout-- do it, but watch your back. They are bandits.

Not only that-- when your Elven huntress climbs over that hill, and stumbles upon an Orcish tailor collecting leather-- what the feck are you going to do? Play nice-- ? No, you're going to enrich his gaming experience by chasing him.. ;) And teaching him to stay where the Orcs belong.

Peace out. Open PVP, and full loot is where the big boys play. Get it, or get the feck out.

[Drunkenork]

Hail the middle way! or something...

I agree almost completly. I'm a quester/kingdom builder player type (if player types exists). I want PvP and I want someone else to craft for me :-P

Good statement. Lately I have been really annoyed at these -H

Can't say it any better.

[Morster]

I for one like the Alignment system. I am all for FFA PvP and full loot, I am not a care bear or PK'er by nature or practice. I am a Role-Player. Yes it will suck when I get killed out in the world while exploring but its a dangerous world and that means there is risk.

When I get bored of exploring I can then work on my more shady skills and move away from the life of an upstanding citizen of what ever faction I belong to and fall in to the ways of the evil and reproachful. I fully understand that doing so will lead to me becoming an outcast and my life will get hard, but by then I will be looking for hard, and thus will welcome it.

The point is just like in the real world there are people that will not choose to live within the defined life of a good upstanding citizen and they will choose to alienate themselves and live the life less traveled. They will put, me, and all of us at risk and that risk will make the world a better more exciting and random place.

Personally I could not stand PvP in WoW, or most other MMO's (I never played UO), but while participating in Dark & Light's short semi-public prelaunch event I found that in a world with risk, open RvR, the game and your accomplishments have more meaning then in a game with Flags or restrictions on players. The times I spent in fear for my life or running down other players which my guild mates at my side was an experiance I have been looking for since then. DFO seems to fit that bill, the risk is there and the penalty for choosing chaos over loyalty is also ever present, both complement DFO and its ideals, and they are what drive me to this place even though I have never been a PvP fan.

[Xtra-Medium]

i just like how you called all the people that want to kill without consequence carebears, never though of it like that

[minijag]

Compromise. DFO is going to feature non consentual PvP (aka PK). Obviously this is taking the safety level of the game and dropping it down a well.

Carebears want absolutes, they want things easy. This includes both sides of the whole PvP deal. The people that hate PvP so much because it will hurt their powergamer schedule, or even their pride that their character isn't a big hero, and on the other side, those players who want to be able to kill anyone anywhere with no lasting consequences.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

So we come to a happy medium. The Alignment System let's the Carebears on one side have their PvP, without totally sentencing the Carebears on the other side to eternal death.

It allows everyone more freedom, without totally making the game in any one group's favor.

Consequences are good. The Alignment System is about the only non RP way to add the element of law to DFO. The real 'hardcore' players will sit confortable doing what they do, but not with the total freedom to do it absolute.

Face it. Many players spend their game time trying to ruin it for other people. Few people role play in a similar enough style to make abolishing something like the Alignment System a good idea.

The Carebears on one side are balanced with the Carebears on the other side.

PvPers who call for the removal of the Alignment System are as much a Carebear as the people who want consentual PvP. The true hardcore players are the ones who work with consequences and accept them for their actions.


Well said

[Yewf]

A karma/alignment system is necessary in FFA pvp games; the mere consequence of making someone freely attackable by anyone probably won't be enough; it certainly wasn't enough in 1997 UO. The murderer/bounty/statloss mechanics from UO were implemented to lessen rampant opportunistic slayings of "less-than-hardass" players. The karma penalties were necessary to permit some semblance of enjoyment by the portion of the population that enjoyed activities other than PvP all the time. Players that wanted to explore the world, and experiment with character templates that were less than 100% focused on PvP (aka crafters, adventurers, etc.). This kind of design allows a healthy, more well-rounded community.

We should have some functionality in place that will allow crafters and adventurers to enjoy the environment of a persistent FFA pvp world without having them cancel their accounts out of frustration from getting raped all day long. I hope that the size of the world, combined with whatever other design is in store, will remedy this potential downfall.

Actually, the "murder/bounty/statloss" system was 'necessary' only because the groups of murderers were far more organized (and, generally, better at the game) than were their victims. Put into a different perspective, they were more dangerous than their prey. The problem was that there were insufficient people willing to take up the opposing side. PVPers are, by definition, more interested in pvping than farming or crafting... Whereas it takes quite a bit of encouragement for most non-pvpers to come to someone elses aid, a pvper is generally searching for something to start a fight over... Or at least I always was.

[Hasan]

Iam an old MMORPG gamer.
I have tried lineage 2, wow, UO, AOC, EVE, and few more text only online games.
I belong to group of pvp/pk players.

From all these games i like most pvp system in Lineage, with one exception.
When u kill someone in L2, and he dont fight back, u get karma.
Karma means u are bad guy, and if u die u lose some of your equipment.
But! If u kill that player far away from town, u can easily ged rid of karma by killing mobs. What more, killing other player means loss of XP for him! And that is really good satisfaction for little red danger. U shoud hear them bi....ing on me when they root on the ground.


Now the exception: If you have karma already, and some other noob attack you, he wont get flagged. That means u have to run away from him, cuz if u kill him too, u get only more karma. I think murder of PK is still murder, so why the noob attacking RED player shoud not be flagged?


This could work well for DF too, of course, only for "same racial or same clan" killing. For killing other races there is no penalty at all, and thats right.

System of DF is just a bit more pro pvp / pk, because your prey penalty isnt just a lose of xp, but whole equipment.

[Prinny]

I can't wait for real PVP again. And I really hope that the whiners and "carebears" or w/e don't ruin this game for any of us.

There are so many games out there that are set up for those who don't have the desire to pvp/loot etc.

There's just something awesome about exploring a land where there are pkers out lurking... idc how many times as a new player i'm killed, it just makes me figure out faster exactly what my character can and can not do. What point is it to have a powerful character if all we can kill or fight is a pre-programmed set of pixels in which there is only one (possibly two) ways to fight it?

way pre-trammel UO was fun. Sure there were those guilds that were really powerful and could take out all the guards in minoc, but hey... there was nothing stopping me (or anyone) from creating an equally or more powerful guild and challenging them!

I've been on both the "blue" side and the "red" side, and quite frankly, by the time my red went red, she well deserved it, and I was proud of it too (go ahead, flame me)

My guild's been playing WoW for a long time now... way too long... the core of us are anxious for real pvp again. we're excited about it and hope that the developers of darkfall have paid attention to UO and WoW and the like... how they were ruined by things like trammel and battlegrounds....

I've often wondered why WoW didn't learn from UO. (and any other game out there which has had this problem). IMO they should have made a select few realms that added battlegrounds and left a few of them as classic.

anyway I'm excited about DF.

also, i haven't read about it yet but can we attack guild members? It makes it a heck of a lot easier to manage a guild ;)

[Valaska]

lol yeah both sides of the pond are pretty much carebears in their own right.. I love how the "ARRRDCOAARS" are trying to defend themselves and say they should have no limits, because it should be complete and total freedom.

Well heck, coulda sword player freedom is in there, so you think the crafters and such should give up their freedom of being able to be crafters?? In a city? With guards? Well no fricken crap a cities guard isn't going to like a person murdering their own people in groves, inviting them to go absolutely bloody anywhere is just asking to tick off anyone who starts knew even "AAARRRDCOOOOARRS".

I am a massive supporter of the open PVP, I mean come on seeing someone with something you want and you can take it? Raiding ships etc? Yeah thats pretty much awesome but HOLY HELL there has to be consequence for both sides like OP originally said. Stop being such a, this is going to feel weird to say lol, "Carebear noob stupid wuss" and suck it up it's a bloody challenge. Your E-Penis can be easily grown upon crap games like Halo 3 etc if you want to be a complete moron, but in a MMORPG, yeah there is rewards and risk, yer taking a reward, you're accepting the risk, LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME NOOB! Ahaha, nice

[tollmart]

Thank you, Arathalus!

I doubt he'll listen to what you said, anything I've said or what the entire community has been trying to make clear to him all along.

You put what I've been trying to say into words very simply, direct and to the point.

So again... THANK YOU.

This thread has been an eye opener for me though. I am tired of arguing a point with people who do not listen, whether it is Floss or anybody else like him who pops up in the future. It is quite simply an excersize in futility and I see no reason to even waste my time anymore so I am quite literally finished.

Normally I'm not prone to flaming people or resort to name calling, but at the moment I don't care and I'll have my one moment of respite to say what's on my mind.

All you self-righteous carebears can crawl back under the latest EQ expansion and die. I'll see the rest of you in game when it is released.

I am going to make Constantine a nice cup of tea and look foward to his next post.
The game is what it is, a pvp game that is like no other. If you dont like pvp then as far as I can see Vanguard is a good game now, much better than it was. EQ2 is a great game.
I dont want to see Darkfall go the way of UO, a game I loved so much and still did even when Tram was introduced but the light had gone out, the excitement gone.
If I get grief then I will go somewhere else, do something else this is the nature of open pvp. Take it away and you lose the heart.
I still think Cloaks would be cool.

[BladyKillher]

How much alligment penalties for hitting good race member are we talking here?
Does it takes 1 hit to become "evil" or does it take 10 or 20? If we are talking about 1 hit then we can have interesting situations of someone provoking race member and throws shit in his face until he breaks and takes first hit making him evil and if provoker wins fight he'll actually become even more good in game terms.
Psychology warfare at it's best.

[Lysandor]

i just like how you called all the people that want to kill without consequence carebears, never though of it like that

I call it like it is.

[mfcrackers]

I just hope that the community will be strong enough to band together to deal with habitual griefers. face it at somepoint almost everyone will be a dick and gank a newbie or grief someone because they are pissed, but it is the ones how repeatidly show this type of behavoir that can ruin a game for every one

[nate4449]

PvPers who call for the removal of the Alignment System are as much a Carebear as the people who want consentual PvP. The true hardcore players are the ones who work with consequences and accept them for their actions.


This.

[Lysandor]

I just hope that the community will be strong enough to band together to deal with habitual griefers. face it at somepoint almost everyone will be a dick and gank a newbie or grief someone because they are pissed, but it is the ones how repeatidly show this type of behavoir that can ruin a game for every one

Right, mere murderers should of course be hunted down. They are just too lazy to go after someone that can fight back...or for that matter someone from a different race.

I have no real fear of the peekays among us, nor do I particularly dislike them. I just don't think that style of play should be promoted above others. Keep things balanced.

[Malhavok]

A karma/alignment system is necessary in FFA pvp games; the mere consequence of making someone freely attackable by anyone probably won't be enough; it certainly wasn't enough in 1997 UO. The murderer/bounty/statloss mechanics from UO were implemented to lessen rampant opportunistic slayings of "less-than-hardass" players. The karma penalties were necessary to permit some semblance of enjoyment by the portion of the population that enjoyed activities other than PvP all the time. Players that wanted to explore the world, and experiment with character templates that were less than 100% focused on PvP (aka crafters, adventurers, etc.). This kind of design allows a healthy, more well-rounded community.

We should have some functionality in place that will allow crafters and adventurers to enjoy the environment of a persistent FFA pvp world without having them cancel their accounts out of frustration from getting raped all day long. I hope that the size of the world, combined with whatever other design is in store, will remedy this potential downfall.

In other words, you're a carebear who needs special treatment to enjoy the game because you're a perpetual victim and can't be bothered to deal with the realities of a FFA environment. The fact is that in a FFA environment you are at the whim of other players every second your are in game. You can do EVE style safezones or L2/UO style /suicide punishments, but the fact is neither of those games were truly FFA.

Which isn't necessarly a bad thing, maybe the game doesn't need to be 100% FFA. It can have it's safety zones for the noobs like EVE does with high sec space. EVE actually did that pretty well, as in 0.0 where the training wheels are removed the game is very much FFA but the carebears who can't and don't want FFA can still puts around in empire space doing the things carebears enjoy (mining asteroids, blasting retarded AI pirate nests).

Darkfall's alignment if done right can accomplish something similar. The carebears can stay in relative safety as long as they never venture far from NPC towns. The moment they decide to set up their own town alignment no longer protects them as any clan can declare war and send them crying back to the capital to do what ever it is carebears like to do.

[Heuchera]

I am all in for the rep system, but i'm worried on how griefers are gonna abuse it: in UO if a player slayed an innocent he became a criminal/murderer, but in darkfall it's not gonna be the case;

I personnaly fear that alfar will be encouraged to kill everything on sight pk style and will gain rep for it (and it's perfectly fine since in this case we can also fight back and gain rep). the human-mirdain-dwarf alliance are gonna get the most griefers by ninja looting, spawn stealing, pickpocket etc to force players into getting bad rep and lose their superior city advantage while mahirin and orks will be a bit more balanced between good people and grievers.

But it is irrelevant so long as there are more good players than grievers, and if the forumfall community can be used as example of what we will see online we should be fine :)

[Arxon Havenloft]

Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer. These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

Actually, games that don't allow for open pvp attract more griefers and exploiters...

You've got to remember, most griefers only grief because it's the only way that they can win. They would hate to be put into a world where the gamers could fight back. And that is exactly what ffa full loot pvp does to a game. It gets rid of these kinds of griefers. Sure, you may have a few smart ones left but trust me they'll feel the edge of an axe just as often as the rest of us. It's just so much easier to grief in a game where the other guy just simply cannot do anything about it. You've got your entire thinking backwards.. You think of PvP enthusiasts as mean, evil, wrong, etc.. We are simply the gamers that have been playing these games for years, we know how they work by now, and want to take on a real challenge.. A challenge that obviously no computer ai could ever give us. PvP. Sure, we like other things, but in the end if the game isn't open ffa pvp then we just lack the urge to play it. Don't you think we are as sick of the griefing, exploiting, cheating in games as well? At least with this form of PvP we can do something about it. That's where we stand..

[Holeshot]

Alignment systems tend to help on a small scale to curb impulse ganking..but in the end it just ends up being exploited to grief to even greater extents. I'd rather have no alignment system then have to deal with "blue" griefers that force me into a situation on taking an alignment hit to protect friends or assets. All alignment systems end up with too many loopholes and exploits...this one seems to be more complicated then many other games in the past. It will be interesting to see how they implemented their flagging/alignment rules and even more interested in seeing how I can abuse them to my advantage and others dismay.

[Arxon Havenloft]

Alignment systems tend to help on a small scale to curb impulse ganking..but in the end it just ends up being exploited to grief to even greater extents. I'd rather have no alignment system then have to deal with "blue" griefers that force me into a situation on taking an alignment hit to protect friends or assets. All alignment systems end up with too many loopholes and exploits...this one seems to be more complicated then many other games in the past. It will be interesting to see how they implemented their flagging/alignment rules and even more interested in seeing how I can abuse them to my advantage and others dismay.

I'm sure that they have made adjustments so that these situations can happen here and there before penalizing you too greatly.

[wataf]

The whole PvP flag system may work for other games, but the whole premise of Darkfall is to allow characters the freedom to do what they want as long as they are willing to face the consequences.

Not to mention that just because Darkfall follows a more open PvP structure than the majority of the MMORPG market right now doesn't mean that there necessarily be more "abuse of other players" than there are in other games.

There are other ways to ruin the gaming experience for players than killing them. For example:

A highly skilled character walks into a popular newbie area and repeatedly everything that spawns right in front of the new players so they can't gain skill.

A player follows you around town and annoys you with stupid questions and calls you every stupid name in the book plus a few they made up on the spot.

A player pretending to be a merchant sells you defective goods or doesn't pay the amount they promised.

Ad naseum...

Well these kinds of "abuse" are in games regardless of what kind of PvP system a game has. What exactly do you plan to do about it in a consensual PvP world? Sit around for 4 hours and wait for a GM to a) slap the "griefer" on the hands or b) tell you they can't help you?

If you don't want to be bothered by griefers, the only way you're going to avoid them is to stay off the Internet and MMORPGs completely. Some "flag" isn't going to keep them away.

Walking out into the world and getting killed by another player is not "abuse" it is risk. Everybody who understands what Darkfall is and is excited about the game's release understands that the game will allow players more freedom to play how they want, but its not without its risks.

If you are getting repeatedly killed by the same player over and over again, more than likely you are allowing yourself to be griefed. If you played the original Diablo on the BattleNet you're well aware that cheating and pks ran rampant in the games. It always boggled my mind though on how many people, once killed would allow their attacker to repeatedly ressurect and then kill them again as if they had no other alternative when you could easily release to town or go somewhere else.

Players who follow predictable patterns, leave town at the same time every night, hunt in the exact same spots every day and find themselves killed by the same character need to realize that you can solve the problem on your own. Take a different route. Find a different hunting spot. Hunt during a different part of the day. Hire a bodyguard or an assassin. These things might seem like an annoying, but you might stumble across something new and exciting while exploring or you might meet new friends and allies while looking to hire a bodyguard.

There are other benefits of an open PvP system other than the increased freedom. It has added social and economical benefits on the game. I could dig into that entire area as well and I have done so before in previous posts of mine, however it is more important to note that a great many people in these forums do see the "obvious".

We are tired of the current trend in MMORPG games that place unrealistic restrictions on our characters that separates us from the other players so much that we feel isolated and stifled. We want to be able to take action when and how we want and make our own decisions. If somebody annoys us or insults our honor, we want more options than calling a GM to handle the problem for us. If somebody steals from us we want the chance to be able to retrieve our belongings. At the same time, if we feel like running around like a madman and killing everybody who we think looks at us funny then we can do that too. You won't make many friends that way, but its your choice.

If you want to play in a MMORPG while a living thriving world is going on around you, yet you "don't want to be bothered" then not only is Darkfall not the right game for you, but no online game is right for you.


This should be stickied, 24 font, bold, certain points underlined, and FUCKING CAPS LOCKED. The preamble + 8 commandments to internet gaming, a real testament against the old ways, and for the new vision for mmos. Read it and weep, bitches.

[Fuligin]

If I was in the mood for randomly pwning people all the time and getting insanely evil alignment, I'd be perfectly happy about the fact that I'd get attacked when I went in cities, it'd just be more things to fight :D

[DaveDFF]

Very very nice post by the OP and so so accurate congratulations.

[Lysandor]

If I was in the mood for randomly pwning people all the time and getting insanely evil alignment, I'd be perfectly happy about the fact that I'd get attacked when I went in cities, it'd just be more things to fight :D

That's the spirit.

[Drueric]

I didnt read all the pages but I am wondering if everyone has forgotten that different races can attack each other without penalty., If your playing human and are getting griefed by another human... well, he just wont be able to make friends. No player merchants will want to do business with a griefer, some will, but many wont. The life of a griefer will become dull and boring at some point where they will have to start all over with a new name and try to be a .. um... 'not so stupid' ? player.

[Wind4Air]

Compromise. DFO is going to feature non consentual PvP (aka PK). Obviously this is taking the safety level of the game and dropping it down a well.

Carebears want absolutes, they want things easy. This includes both sides of the whole PvP deal. The people that hate PvP so much because it will hurt their powergamer schedule, or even their pride that their character isn't a big hero, and on the other side, those players who want to be able to kill anyone anywhere with no lasting consequences.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

So we come to a happy medium. The Alignment System let's the Carebears on one side have their PvP, without totally sentencing the Carebears on the other side to eternal death.

It allows everyone more freedom, without totally making the game in any one group's favor.

Consequences are good. The Alignment System is about the only non RP way to add the element of law to DFO. The real 'hardcore' players will sit confortable doing what they do, but not with the total freedom to do it absolute.

Face it. Many players spend their game time trying to ruin it for other people. Few people role play in a similar enough style to make abolishing something like the Alignment System a good idea.

The Carebears on one side are balanced with the Carebears on the other side.

PvPers who call for the removal of the Alignment System are as much a Carebear as the people who want consentual PvP. The true hardcore players are the ones who work with consequences and accept them for their actions.

Awsome
I'll +1 that

[Anwir]

and on the other side, those players who want to be able to kill anyone anywhere with no lasting consequences.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

+1 to this.

I'll freely admit to being a PK in UO, hell I'm proud of it. I was a solo PK who was so far red there was no coming back, and nothing annoyed me more than the "I can't use this character for a while or I'll take stat-loss" "just macro'ing off my murder counts" gankers who ran in huge packs so that the one person they were peekaying with their leet skills couldn't hurt them.

Both sides need to suck it up and face the consequences.

And to back up what others have said, the griefing was far more rampant in the safe areas (like UO Trammel) than others where you could just kill them and get on with your day.

Remember the important thing about assholes is that by their very nature they'll have less friends than people who are likeable - so if they outnumber you, well the problem could be on your end.

[jpaz86]

Carebears want absolutes, they want things easy.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing.

The Alignment System let's the Carebears on one side have their PvP, without totally sentencing the Carebears on the other side to eternal death.

The Carebears on one side are balanced with the Carebears on the other side.

PvPers who call for the removal of the Alignment System are as much a Carebear as the people who want consentual PvP.

Take it easy on the poor Carebears...
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=vW148jQ79vs
"No! He's just a care bear!"

[Interesting]

The real 'hardcore' players will sit confortable doing what they do, but not with the total freedom to do it absolute.


"Total Freedom" I like it even more every time I read it.

Face it. Many players spend their game time trying to ruin it for other people. Few people role play in a similar enough style to make abolishing something like the Alignment System a good idea.

I dont see a problem with trying to ruin the fun for other people. In fact, thats one of the most underated ways of entertainment. Why people keep enforcing their moral values onto others?

Darkfall's product is the absence of that.
Hardcoded consequences system whose main purpose is to limit the Freedom?

"Total Freedom"

Thats the beauty of it. It emulates life in its most pure form. Realism if you prefer. Causing effects and being able to avoid the consequences.

Like a serial killer who never got caught because there is no hardcoded consequences system in life.

If we are to have any sort of Law system, it should emulate real life, even better if its based on Middle Age period.

The laws of man are a boat sailing against the river. It doesnt prevent nor punish, neither changes anyone behaviour or personality, people hardly get caught and convicted. Why should Darkfall Online be diferent?

What type of people do you think will be playing this game?

The only law we need is private vengeance, an eye for an eye. The community should take care of itself as the context/story/lore of the game implies.

[Lysandor]

"Total Freedom" I like it even more every time I read it.

Sounds great doesn't it.

I dont see a problem with trying to ruin the fun for other people. In fact, thats one of the most underated ways of entertainment.

It sure does, I'm certainly planning to ruin the virtual lives of entire guilds and empire builders personally.

Why people keep enforcing their moral values onto others?

Where is that advocated in this thread? Unless you mean one of the replies?

"Total Freedom"

Total Freedom is Anarchy

Thats the beauty of it. It emulates life in its most pure form. Realism if you prefer. Causing effects and being able to avoid the consequences.

You can do that in DFO too, and nothing in this thread advocates otherwise.

Like a serial killer who never got caught because there is no hardcoded consequences system in life.

Ah yes, you equate the Alignment System to Law and Order. All the Alignment System represents is how evil or good you are to your own race.

If we are to have any sort of Law system, it should emulate real life, even better if its based on Middle Age period.

Laws should be player made and enforced. Devs create the game world, players create the game.

The laws of man are a boat sailing against the river. It doesnt prevent nor punish, neither changes anyone behaviour or personality, people hardly get caught and convicted. Why should Darkfall Online be diferent?

I don't think you understand the Alignment System.

What type of people do you think will be playing this game?

All types?

The only law we need is private vengeance, an eye for an eye. The community should take care of itself as the context/story/lore of the game implies.

That's fine, but you can't eat your cake and have it too. You want to be able to kill people freely, you can. If the alignment system is all that is stopping you, you aren't much of a killer are you?

[Lysandor]

+1 to this.

I'll freely admit to being a PK in UO, hell I'm proud of it. I was a solo PK who was so far red there was no coming back, and nothing annoyed me more than the "I can't use this character for a while or I'll take stat-loss" "just macro'ing off my murder counts" gankers who ran in huge packs so that the one person they were peekaying with their leet skills couldn't hurt them.

Both sides need to suck it up and face the consequences.

And to back up what others have said, the griefing was far more rampant in the safe areas (like UO Trammel) than others where you could just kill them and get on with your day.

Remember the important thing about assholes is that by their very nature they'll have less friends than people who are likeable - so if they outnumber you, well the problem could be on your end.

You 'get it'. I am certainly a pvper, but I'm also a strong believer in karma...in AD&D terms, I'm Chaotic Neutral. I live with the consequences as easily as my target died with my blade. I can be good or evil on a whim and I may or may not follow the law...but I always accept the repercussions.

[DaveDFF]

I am going to make Constantine a nice cup of tea and look foward to his next post.
The game is what it is, a pvp game that is like no other. If you dont like pvp then as far as I can see Vanguard is a good game now, much better than it was. EQ2 is a great game.
I dont want to see Darkfall go the way of UO, a game I loved so much and still did even when Tram was introduced but the light had gone out, the excitement gone.
If I get grief then I will go somewhere else, do something else this is the nature of open pvp. Take it away and you lose the heart.
I still think Cloaks would be cool.

You are wrong there is PvP in the game but there is a lot more to the game than just that , the PvPers will not get any fun out of me or loot for that matter. You can chase me for hours accross the landscapes and if I wan't to fight I will but otherwise no chance.

A lot of people will play this game for the world and the features, and it's sheer size. And will make their own judgements once on board it is not for you to reccomend what people should or shouldn't do you have your opinion but that is all it is.

[nathanpinard]

Well Consentual clan-guild-city wars does not belong in DF.
Anybody shold be able to declare war on any time at any time!

I don't' know if it's consensual is it? I thought either could declare war without the others "permission". You can still kill them without war, but declaring war yields no penalty.

I figured it worked like Eve where non-mutal wars cost more to declare.


And an Floss, seriously. If DF "realized the error of their ways' and make the game no full loot and flagged PvP, it would fail.

[forestchild]

Compromise. DFO is going to feature non consentual PvP (aka PK). Obviously this is taking the safety level of the game and dropping it down a well.

Carebears want absolutes, they want things easy. This includes both sides of the whole PvP deal. The people that hate PvP so much because it will hurt their powergamer schedule, or even their pride that their character isn't a big hero, and on the other side, those players who want to be able to kill anyone anywhere with no lasting consequences.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

So we come to a happy medium. The Alignment System let's the Carebears on one side have their PvP, without totally sentencing the Carebears on the other side to eternal death.

It allows everyone more freedom, without totally making the game in any one group's favor.

Consequences are good. The Alignment System is about the only non RP way to add the element of law to DFO. The real 'hardcore' players will sit confortable doing what they do, but not with the total freedom to do it absolute.

Face it. Many players spend their game time trying to ruin it for other people. Few people role play in a similar enough style to make abolishing something like the Alignment System a good idea.

The Carebears on one side are balanced with the Carebears on the other side.

PvPers who call for the removal of the Alignment System are as much a Carebear as the people who want consentual PvP. The true hardcore players are the ones who work with consequences and accept them for their actions.

Explain me then why people choose a pvp server with pvp anywhere and when gankers come and kill them or corpse camping and why those PK ruin it for them?

I still can't believe why people keep saying this.

Its rather stupid of those to choose a pvp server but wanne be left alone and they wanne deside when people can fight them or not thats insanely stupid:P

If you choose to play on pvp server and specially on a free for all server and hope to have system to protect you and wanne be left alone when pveing your 100% carebear simple as that.

[fourak]

I have only read lysandor´s first post here.

I agree with you man 100%

[Lysandor]

Explain me then why people choose a pvp server with pvp anywhere and when gankers come and kill them or corpse camping and why those PK ruin it for them?

The problem with even having different servers with different rulesets is you get an imbalanced population. And in games that depend on levels, fights can hardly be fun when you are not even able to fight back at all.

I still can't believe why people keep saying this.

And I can hardly believe people consider a candidate that can say 'uh' 32 times in a ten minute interview can be considered a charismatic orator.

Its rather stupid of those to choose a pvp server but wanne be left alone and they wanne deside when people can fight them or not thats insanely stupid:P

True, but the existence of pvp and pve servers is part of the problem.

If you choose to play on pvp server and specially on a free for all server and hope to have system to protect you and wanne be left alone when pveing your 100% carebear simple as that.

Your argument doesn't really apply to this topic, but you have a point...just not in DFOland.

[FunWithDrugs]

This thread is like 3 years old. I guess someone used search.

My mistake. 4 years old.

[Lysandor]

This thread is like 3 years old. I guess someone used search.

4 actually...and it has been linked in my sig since I made the OP.