Why the Alignment System Doesn't Suck [Archive]

Lysandor

08-12-2004, 10:14 AM

Compromise. DFO is going to feature non consentual PvP (aka PK). Obviously this is taking the safety level of the game and dropping it down a well.

Carebears want absolutes, they want things easy. This includes both sides of the whole PvP deal. The people that hate PvP so much because it will hurt their powergamer schedule, or even their pride that their character isn't a big hero, and on the other side, those players who want to be able to kill anyone anywhere with no lasting consequences.

Both are carebears. Both want something for nothing. Both want total safety in their element. And both want no part of the other except to ruin the other's day.

So we come to a happy medium. The Alignment System let's the Carebears on one side have their PvP, without totally sentencing the Carebears on the other side to eternal death.

It allows everyone more freedom, without totally making the game in any one group's favor.

Consequences are good. The Alignment System is about the only non RP way to add the element of law to DFO. The real 'hardcore' players will sit confortable doing what they do, but not with the total freedom to do it absolute.

Face it. Many players spend their game time trying to ruin it for other people. Few people role play in a similar enough style to make abolishing something like the Alignment System a good idea.

The Carebears on one side are balanced with the Carebears on the other side.

PvPers who call for the removal of the Alignment System are as much a Carebear as the people who want consentual PvP. The true hardcore players are the ones who work with consequences and accept them for their actions.

Red-Eye

08-12-2004, 12:38 PM

Hail the middle way! or something...

I agree almost completly. I'm a quester/kingdom builder player type (if player types exists). I want PvP and I want someone else to craft for me :-P

Good statement. Lately I have been really annoyed at these -H

Kaneski

08-12-2004, 01:02 PM

Agree with #1 completely. I think DFO will manage to archieve it, at least for a while. At some point, either side of the pendulum will inevitably sway the balance. The 2 pitfalls are: the PvPers growing powerful enough to more or less ignore the penalty (ie. Kill the city guards whenever they show up) and the 'afraid-to-die' amassing enough firepower to keep themselves safe (namely, powerful NPC guards). Heh, now that I think about this, ideally, these 2 groups should be put in the same room to balance each other out from time to time :D.

There is a "god-like" thread somewhere and if I recall, the odds of becoming textbook "

Saeren

08-12-2004, 01:55 PM

I also agree. A game like this needs many checks and balances, without which it won't be balanced.

Shakespeare

08-12-2004, 03:07 PM

As to a pk being a carebear, ya lost me a bit there as i was a pk on pac in UO. But like everyone else i agree with the alignment system. It seems to be a compromise that everyone can live with and live well. Much can be said for walking the road less traveled.

shakes

(was Evildead, Ulrich, DrNuttbutter, Nautica on pac... if i knew ya... HI!)

CowsMoo

08-12-2004, 04:59 PM

It worked OK in UO, it'll be fine here...

FlossDragon

08-12-2004, 05:14 PM

Compromise. DFO is going to feature non consentual PvP (aka PK). Obviously this is taking the safety level of the game and dropping it down a well.

I think it is dropping it right down something other than a well.

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me. The PvP flag system works fine--if you want to PvP you can. you just can't abuse other players.

Why can't you see the obvious?

Murray

08-12-2004, 06:17 PM

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me.

There it is, you think you're special, you should be able to go anywhere you want, get into anyone's face you want and they shouldn't be able to touch you unless you say it's OK. So if you're wandering through the woods, alone, picking flowers or whatever, and you stumble into a group of bandits, they should have written permission to be able to kill you and take your stuff?

That's exactly why people turn away from games like L2, because you can't kill off the foolish or get rid of the annoying punks of the world without taking severe character penalties.

The Alignment system is pleanty harsh enough. The bandits who constantly kill the innocent will be flagged criminals and evil. Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.

Constantine

08-12-2004, 06:26 PM

I think it is dropping it right down something other than a well.

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me. The PvP flag system works fine--if you want to PvP you can. you just can't abuse other players.

Why can't you see the obvious?

The whole PvP flag system may work for other games, but the whole premise of Darkfall is to allow characters the freedom to do what they want as long as they are willing to face the consequences.

Not to mention that just because Darkfall follows a more open PvP structure than the majority of the MMORPG market right now doesn't mean that there necessarily be more "abuse of other players" than there are in other games.

There are other ways to ruin the gaming experience for players than killing them. For example:

A highly skilled character walks into a popular newbie area and repeatedly everything that spawns right in front of the new players so they can't gain skill.

A player follows you around town and annoys you with stupid questions and calls you every stupid name in the book plus a few they made up on the spot.

A player pretending to be a merchant sells you defective goods or doesn't pay the amount they promised.

Ad naseum...

Well these kinds of "abuse" are in games regardless of what kind of PvP system a game has. What exactly do you plan to do about it in a consensual PvP world? Sit around for 4 hours and wait for a GM to a) slap the "griefer" on the hands or b) tell you they can't help you?

If you don't want to be bothered by griefers, the only way you're going to avoid them is to stay off the Internet and MMORPGs completely. Some "flag" isn't going to keep them away.

Walking out into the world and getting killed by another player is not "abuse" it is risk. Everybody who understands what Darkfall is and is excited about the game's release understands that the game will allow players more freedom to play how they want, but its not without its risks.

If you are getting repeatedly killed by the same player over and over again, more than likely you are allowing yourself to be griefed. If you played the original Diablo on the BattleNet you're well aware that cheating and pks ran rampant in the games. It always boggled my mind though on how many people, once killed would allow their attacker to repeatedly ressurect and then kill them again as if they had no other alternative when you could easily release to town or go somewhere else.

Players who follow predictable patterns, leave town at the same time every night, hunt in the exact same spots every day and find themselves killed by the same character need to realize that you can solve the problem on your own. Take a different route. Find a different hunting spot. Hunt during a different part of the day. Hire a bodyguard or an assassin. These things might seem like an annoying, but you might stumble across something new and exciting while exploring or you might meet new friends and allies while looking to hire a bodyguard.

There are other benefits of an open PvP system other than the increased freedom. It has added social and economical benefits on the game. I could dig into that entire area as well and I have done so before in previous posts of mine, however it is more important to note that a great many people in these forums do see the "obvious".

We are tired of the current trend in MMORPG games that place unrealistic restrictions on our characters that separates us from the other players so much that we feel isolated and stifled. We want to be able to take action when and how we want and make our own decisions. If somebody annoys us or insults our honor, we want more options than calling a GM to handle the problem for us. If somebody steals from us we want the chance to be able to retrieve our belongings. At the same time, if we feel like running around like a madman and killing everybody who we think looks at us funny then we can do that too. You won't make many friends that way, but its your choice.

If you want to play in a MMORPG while a living thriving world is going on around you, yet you "don't want to be bothered" then not only is Darkfall not the right game for you, but no online game is right for you.

Shakespeare

08-12-2004, 06:27 PM

That's exactly why people turn away from games like L2, because you can't kill off the foolish or get rid of the annoying punks of the world without taking severe character penalties.

Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.

1.) Yes, I agree you should be able to kill he retarded if you want to
2.) L2 is not a game to be admired for gameplay anyway you look at it
3.) As far as Johnny DoGooder... rofl

Garth_Dax

08-12-2004, 06:44 PM

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me.

This is the part that befuddles a lot of people on this forum I think. The "don't bother me" part. Player interaction is what a lot of folks want from DF. Yes ... what you may call "griefing" is part of that. So are trade, conflict, cooporation, fighting, PK'ing, warfare, sieging, alliances, politics, etc. So much of that player interaction is rendered moot and impotent if players can easily flip a switch and say, "Naa naa ... I'm not playing so you can't touch me!"

Trammel turned UO into a single player game with other people online. Any other type of PvP switch will have the same type of effect.

Now don't get me wrong, single player games can be fun and have their appeal, but that's not what DF is going to be about.

Why can't you see the obvious?

FlossDragon

08-12-2004, 06:51 PM

The whole PvP flag system may work for other games,

Not to mention that just because Darkfall follows a more open PvP structure than the majority of the MMORPG market right now doesn't mean that there necessarily be more "abuse of other players" than there are in other games.

There are other ways to ruin the gaming experience for players than killing them.

Well these kinds of "abuse" are in games regardless of what kind of PvP system a game has.

If you don't want to be bothered by griefers, the only way you're going to avoid them is to stay off the Internet and MMORPGs completely.

At the same time, if we feel like running around like a madman and killing everybody who we think looks at us funny then we can do that too. You won't make many friends that way, but its your choice.

Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer. These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

Kurgan

08-12-2004, 07:00 PM

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Will you please just leave mate, and throw your ignorant posts somewhere else. I'm so sick and tired of you thinking what you say is the absolute truth and talking bollocks about the cummunity here.

Murray

08-12-2004, 07:05 PM

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers.

See now, I like open PvP and loot... I'm not a duper, a hacker and rarely talk trash (occasionally when provoked)... I enjoy the thrill of wondering what's around the next bend. When you add predictability to the game, it reduces the thrill. I still get an adrenaline rush when I get into a PvP battle... PvM just doesn't do it for me. If I had to accept a challenge before some group of nuts attacked me, well, they'd lose the benefit of surprise, I'd be able to say no if I thought I had no chance and then I'd have to deal with 15 minutes of "n00b"/wimp flames/trash talking for not taking them on.

Hackers and Dupers are out to ruin any game. Wether to make an extra buck by ebaying money or just to feel good about themselves. PvP and open loot have nothing to do with attracting more of them. Heck, if the game has a smaller player base as you think it would, there'd be less of a market to attract the dupers.

kehmesis

08-12-2004, 07:07 PM

This is a very good post. But I think you might be missing the point some people are trying to make (I'm totally for the allignement system, just trying to be the devil's advocate here). The fact that we don't really know how the system works yet, and that we mostly base ourselves on UO and on speculations, it makes us fear what is to come. We make up many scenarios in our head and try to figure if the system will do a good job or not with these scenarios. So it's about whether the system is solid and strong, not if it should be there or not.

I know some people don't want any system at all, but I *think* it's a very small minority, and they should read your post carefully for some very good points.

Septus

08-12-2004, 07:30 PM

I really want to understand what makes players like you tick. Because it certainly ISN'T online gaming. I think a player like you would be far more pleased with Bioware's NWN than a real MMORPG.

MMORPG's have one advantage, a large number of people in one world. When you have any sort of flag like you suggest, you pretty much make all the servers and maintenance costs moot, because you only want to play with certain people anyway.

Darkfall is taking the route most MMORPG's should take. Incorporate sheep, wolves, and all the in-between into one game, and create a structure of checks and balances to keep each group in check. If in fact all you want is consentual PvP and the like, go play EQ2. Let the "griefers, hackers, and dupers" as you put it, have their game, and we'll see how it turns out. I know what kind of player you are. You want a huge world WITHOUT danger (mobs != danger, they are far too easy) and EQ2, I suppose, would be just right for you.

Jangang

08-12-2004, 07:36 PM

Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer. These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

Why are you here? You obviously are not cut out for the world of Darkfall.

Why come to a game that has been designed for YEARS around 1 concept, when that concept is not compatable with your playstyle? That concept being FULL AND COMPLETE PLAYER FREEDOM, INCLUDING FULL PVP, AND FULL LOOT!!!

Their are Soooooooo many games out, or coming out that have what you so obviously desire but you choose to come here and attempt to ruin the ONE GAME that caters to the PvP crowd. Fer shame!

You are no better then us, yet you act as if you are somehow above those you consider "problematic". This is the worst character trait possible in humanity imo. Your type has ruined game after game after game... You find a game, ruin it, then leave when the game is not fun all the while complaining about how boring the game is. Then you find another game w/ great potential, whine complain and get it ruined then leave because its so boring... Rinse, wash, repeat, over, and over, and over again... Ever wonder why the games aren't fun? Let me fill you in, because you ruined them.

Oh, and BTW the worst trash talk I've ever experianced in games comes from the mouths of carebear pansies like yourself. PvP'rs might talk a little shit, but carebears get personal, and go so far as to wish death on you, or your family. They make me sick!

Garth_Dax

08-12-2004, 07:41 PM

This is the worst character trait possible in humanity imo.
Well Demonica, let's not go off the deep end or anything ... I mean ... the worst character trait possible in humanity?! hehe :p

Mordare

08-12-2004, 07:45 PM

Flossdragon...

Seriously, if you don't want full open pvp and full loot, THEN LEAVE. This game is not for you.

Peter

08-12-2004, 07:48 PM

I can see both sides of the arguement. The only MMORPG I played for more than a week was UO... I played that for like 3 years from a little bit after the very beginnings of the game. I support open PVP 100% because without risk Online Games are BORING... However, I have noticed (especially on the topic of pickable/destroyable housing) that there are a lot of people who will be jumping on this game for the soul purpose of ruining everyone elses time...

But when I look back on my days in Ultima, there were tons of people who pissed me off while I was out adventuring and I remember fighting back and forth (not argueing, but continiously ressing and trying to hunt eachother down) with these people for much of the day. These were the same immature people im reading about on this thread, and I thought they were stupid myself. But at least I WAS HAVING FUN fighting these guys. And I knew that everyday when I went hunting or whatever there was a possibility that something interesting would happen.

Then Trammel came along... and all you could do was hunt liche's and slay dragons... and there was never any risk and it all became so routine and mechanical it became boring. So then you didnt even want to hunt anymore, so you just stand around the bank or Guild HQ and wait for guildmembers to come buy so you can shoot the shit... and at that point is when you cancel your subscription...

So even though I hate griefers(reds/theives) as much as the next guy... at least they fill the world with a sense of risk and adventure. At least they give me a target to fight so I feel like I did something interesting and didnt waste my 15 bucks a month. As long as I can't be screwed over when I'm not online, let the griefers do what they want....

so I can kill them after.

FlossDragon

08-12-2004, 07:54 PM

Why are you here?

Why come to a game that has been designed for YEARS around 1 concept, when that concept

Your type has ruined game after game after game...
Ever wonder why the games aren't fun? Let me fill you in, because you ruined them.

I don't know you, so don't take my constructive criticism directly.

I am not certain what your type is, but under the guise of making a game "free" certain types of players are intent on ruining them for everyone. They seem to have surfaced here and be in love with Darkfall. I am surprised anyone would take exception to the basic tenent that griefers tend to be dupers, hackers, and sploiters. If anyone has ruined mmorpgs it is people like-minded to those who are posting here about how players can be freed from game-imposed restraints.

Basically the in-game restraints are like internet fire-walls--they keep chaos at bay. The same reason you have forum moderators--to halt thousands of inane posts that spam a board. I don't think it is too much of a generalization to say that the players who want looting and open PvP are the anti-social element in mmorpgs that ruins them for most other players. II agree with many of you, we certainly can get 60 thousand reasonable roll-palyers onto Darkfall -- but we are also going to get 2 or 3 thousand people intent on distruption, griefing and hacking.

We can stop them, but we need to eleminate open PvP and full looting.

Just what is the problem with the PvP flag. It never seemed to ruin games before? Even in games with the pvP flag you only see about 5% of the player base using it anyway.

This is only a "big deal" to a select minority intent on ruining Darkfall for the rest of us.

Ruim

08-12-2004, 07:55 PM

Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer. These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

Why don't we paint with a few broader strokes.... Maybe next time you can dig a little deeper, develop some new stereotypes about people different from you.

I resent your remarks. I complain about EQ. I don't dupe, hack, trash talk, or act like a sociopath. My money's as good as yours. Some people do, but why do you think you're better then them? Their money's as good as yours too, well unless they break the code of conduct.

As much as you think they ruin the game for you, I'm thinking right now you want to ruin the game for me.

I've seen Wink in action in SB (he's on these boards too), and I remember a large complaint was his time spent harassing groups on newbie isle. A place where no PvP is possible. I also remember a number of threats popping up about what would happen if he ever left the safety of newbie isle. You think a flag system will stop someone like him from functioning? They're not the reason Shadowbane is/was struggling. Hell I'd still be playing if they had the technical parts right way back when.

Oh, and of the 8000+ registered members of this board, Wink is only one of them. That's a far cry from 10%.

Jebsta16

08-12-2004, 08:00 PM

That's exactly why people turn away from games like L2, because you can't kill off the foolish or get rid of the annoying punks of the world without taking severe character penalties.

The Alignment system is pleanty harsh enough. The bandits who constantly kill the innocent will be flagged criminals and evil. Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.

hmm if im reading your post right, then criminals shouldnt be punished for rpk'ing? well in that case tell our government that because there are some ppl i wouldnt mind pk'ing irl. why wouldnt you be regarded a hero for killing a known murderer? if im reading this post right, i dont see any use of common sense anywhere.... i sure hope this is suppose to be sarcastic and if i did misread or something then i apologize and would be great if you could repraise this..

i think this thread hits the nail on the head. ppl dont want to have to take a hit for being a pk, its a prime example of ppl whinning to have things their way to convience them the most. if this is going to be the case lets just make it easy on ubi and call this shadowbane 2 so they dont have to waste their times with actually making it.
im planning on being a rpk and im all for the allignment system. im just going to be smart and not kill my own race until i can stand on my own 2 feet.
learn to play with what you got, i mean strategy. if your going to be dumb then you do deserve all the hits in the world. i hate how ppl get scared when something may hurt what they are doing. work around it there is always something you can do to get around it. strategy and having to use my head is what makes these kind of game so fun for me. its just like madden, who picks the best team just to win? you pick your favorite team and you figure ways to win. if your the person who always picks the best team that isnt your favorite team then your just a carebear that wants things easy.

Murray

08-12-2004, 08:18 PM

I am surprised anyone would take exception to the basic tenent that griefers tend to be dupers, hackers, and sploiters. If anyone has ruined mmorpgs it is people like-minded to those who are posting here about how players can be freed from game-imposed restraints.

Basically the in-game restraints are like internet fire-walls--they keep chaos at bay. The same reason you have forum moderators--to halt thousands of inane posts that spam a board. I don't think it is too much of a generalization to say that the players who want looting and open PvP are the anti-social element in mmorpgs that ruins them for most other players. II agree with many of you, we certainly can get 60 thousand reasonable roll-palyers onto Darkfall -- but we are also going to get 2 or 3 thousand people intent on distruption, griefing and hacking.

We can stop them, but we need to eleminate open PvP and full looting.

Seriously, murder is not griefing. It's a part of the game. If you add restraints, the real griefers will surface and use those restraints to make other players miserable. Once again, the only way to eliminate griefers is to kill them when they get to you. You can't do that in time if the restraints you are advocating are in place. Full Loot works against them because it'll generally be more difficult for an Evil Griefer type to make the friends necessary to re-equip.[/QUOTE]

Just what is the problem with the PvP flag. It never seemed to ruin games before? Even in games with the pvP flag you only see about 5% of the player base using it anyway.

This game does include consequences for murder, for unprovoked PvP. There will be hoardes of "Bounty Hunters" that hunt RPKers, because most people want to be good guys. Open PvP allows people to be as rghteous as they want to be as far as it allows people to be as dastardly as they want to be.

To cite an earlier example I made, how can a small band possible role play as highway bandits if every unsuspecting traveller they jump has to consent to being mugged? How can Johnny Do-Gooder (Encore for Shakes) possible role-play a thief catcher if the bad guys have to consent to his shake-down?

This is only a "big deal" to a select minority intent on ruining Darkfall for the rest of us.

You seem to be the minority here, intent on making this another cookie-cutter safe zone for you and yours....

... and yes, I think it's funny when a band of RPK griefers... well must be exploiter/duper/hackers in Floss's eyes... crashes a wedding which the organizers of thought too special of an event to need proper guarding/security.

It seems to me that you don't want to be responsable for yourself out in the wild.. You want some sort of rules-deity to protect you at all times. Personally I don't want the protection, that isn't fun, it isn't scary, it isn't exciting to kow what to expect. Hell, you may as well make mobs ask your consent to attack you.

Septus

08-12-2004, 08:22 PM

No Jebsta, the post you were replying too was talking about Floss Dragon's post, in which he suggests a PvP flag in addition to the Alignment system.

As for Floss Dragon, read the post above yours which talks about Ultima Online. Yes griefers and PK'ers can be "annoying," but they add an element to the game that no NPC can: tue danger and excitement. You like to slay evil and the like Floss Dragon, but the truth is, you're too much of a baby yourself to try and fight evil that can actually fight back. You like to slay monsters with no chance of killing you, and just grouping with friends, and hey, that's fine, but that's what EQ2 is for.

We are in a game where good and evil are taken up by PLAYERS, by HUMAN BEINGS. If you want to fight evil, be prepared, because evil can actually fight back...

Murray

08-12-2004, 08:22 PM

hmm if im reading your post right, then criminals shouldnt be punished for rpk'ing? well in that case tell our government that because there are some ppl i wouldnt mind pk'ing irl. why wouldnt you be regarded a hero for killing a known murderer? if im reading this post right, i dont see any use of common sense anywhere.... i sure hope this is suppose to be sarcastic and if i did misread or something then i apologize and would be great if you could repraise this.

I don't think you read any of it right. Criminals will get an evil alignment hit, possibly a murderer flag allowing "good" players to hunt them without worrying about hurting their own alignment status. That is punishment, because the masses only feel comfortable staying within the lines. And, Johnny Do-Gooder (Our Hero) would be getting a good alignment bonus for killing the murderer.

I'm not asking for no penalties for RPKing someone, I'm in agreement with the alignment system and I think it's pleanty. I'm arguing against one person in here who is stricty opposed to open PvP and open Loot.

Kurgan

08-12-2004, 08:25 PM

If you add restraints, the real griefers will surface and use those restraints to make other players miserable.

Amen to that. I hope everyone will read that and think about it very well.

Jebsta16

08-12-2004, 08:26 PM

I don't think you read any of it right. Criminals will get an evil alignment hit, possibly a murderer flag allowing "good" players to hunt them without worrying about hurting their own alignment status. That is punishment, because the masses only feel comfortable staying within the lines. And, Johnny Do-Gooder (Our Hero) would be getting a good alignment bonus for killing the murderer.

I'm not asking for no penalties for RPKing someone, I'm in agreement with the alignment system and I think it's pleanty. I'm arguing against one person in here who is stricty opposed to open PvP and open Loot.

ok well then my fault. i thought you were trying to support pks and how they shouldnt be punished for pk'ing. i almost had to unequipt my sword and slap you with my leather glove :P

Fenton

08-12-2004, 08:30 PM

If the open pvp and the full loot keep all of the whiners away I'm truly thankful for that reason alone. I like a challenge and carebears are not what one would call a challenge. If it doesn't then I'll use the hate chat that will inevitably echo from my victims as a sign I'm doing well. (posted while smiling evilly)

Raybur Ravenloc

08-12-2004, 08:33 PM

what i cant figure out is how you make the connection that everyone who likes open PvP is a griefer/anti-social
full PvP simply "allows" people to kill anyone, in most cases there is still order

there are a few crummy 2D MMORPGs (Dransik) with full PvP/loot, what happens in these is clans develope and they kill everyone who isn't part of their clan or allied to it, its not chaos, its war
there are always a handful of greifers in these games, but the worst they can do is kill off a couple of lone travellers before a group of some nearby clan comes and runs them off, kills them and takes everything they stole, then they wind up on KoS lists for town guards, and they cant even bank their stolen goods, or buy supplies, except in certain greafier cities, which makes them even less of a threat in areas farther from these griefer towns

this is what i foresee in DF
lots of player kingdoms constantly trying to destroy their neighbors and claim their land, and the few solo greifers forced to base themselves at some few "evil" kingdoms, limiting the places they can grief to neighboring kingdoms, which would be almost no different than having a warring neighbor who happens to use terror tactics

i very much doubt that full PvP will cause DF to be a huge gankfest of losers who go around wherever they want killing people and saying "i r0xx0rs ju"

Constantine

08-12-2004, 08:33 PM

Constantine you make some interesting points. But I think you will agree that games with open PvP and full looting attract a certain kind of "internet problem", the zelous and frequently imature griefer.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. In fact I saw many more immature griefing players during my time playing DAoC than I ever did in my pre-Trammel UO days.

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.

I will agree that dupers, hackers and cheaters are not welcome in Darkfall. They will ruin the game for everybody. I also read all seven pages of the thread Wink's Shadowbane History and while he honestly admits to a backstabbing and duplicitous history he denied being a cheater and even himself spoke out against it, although he was accused of being a cheater by another poster.

The playstyle of evil RPK, traitor or general troublemaker is not my personal playstyle but I do not feel there should be coded rules in the game to protect the playerbase from them. Restrictions inevitably cause far more problems than they solve. If the playerbase does not want them around, they will form their own guilds and banish them from their cities or take some other action to remove them from the game.

These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all. At least in a diluted state (like on EQ or probably WoW etc) they are not 10% of the player base, but rather .01%. The very players complaining about EQ are the ones who will run rampant in Darkfall and ruin it--probably driving them out of business.

Even so called "evil" guilds have standards and detest cheaters, hackers, liars and those that would betray them. These players are often blacklisted and quickly find it difficult to find any sort of support from any but the most chaotic and socially destructive players. You are probably correct in guessing they make up a very small percentage of the population. If they are cheaters, hopefully the devs will be able to find and ban them. However if they are just social misfits bent on griefing everybody and everyone else around them, the other 99% of the community will ensure that they leave the game or have a very difficult time staying around either through actively pursuing and attacking them or passively refusing to trade or acknowledge them.

Lets not give them the chance to destroy Darkfall, lets get the devs to come to their senses. If we don't do it now you won't be playing this game in 6 months any more than anyone plays shadowbane any more.

I believe you underestimate your fellow players. I don't think the community will allow a small percentage of griefers to ruin the game. The "good" players will band together against the griefers. The "evil" guilds will either blacklist them and hunt them down. Forcing them to rise to the challenge of surviving in a harsh world where nobody wants them around, and some people actually enjoy that challenge.

As I said, you made some valid points, and with an ideal roll-playing playerbase the world you would have would be fun--but it just isn't possible with this group of people.

I think that it not only will people be able to role play while having evil and chaotic players around, but that it will make for a much more dynamic and enjoyable role playing environment.

If you wish to venture into a crusade to get the devs to "change their minds" that is your perogative. Do not expect a lot of support as many of us support the current vision the devs have for Darkfall such as the implimentation of an alignment system that makes players deal with the consequences of their actions as opposed to simply coding a rule into the game to prevent players from excersizing any form of free will.

I wish you the best of luck if you continue with your fight. Although if Darkfall ever does change from its actions & consequences philosophy to a more restrictive and enforced playstyle I will be the first to excersize my free will to never, ever play the game.

Thankfully, I don't think it will ever come to that.

Murray

08-12-2004, 08:34 PM

ok well then my fault. i thought you were trying to support pks and how they shouldnt be punished for pk'ing. i almost had to unequipt my sword and slap you with my leather glove :P

Careful, you may get flagged as a ... well, nm. :-)

Heck, that brings up a dueling system... I dont' mind consentual PvP systems, as long as they're included on top of the Open system... Say adding Gladiator arenas to towns and allowing duels of honor. There was a thread a month or so ago about an added on arena combat system... Could be fun if it were all player run.

Septus

08-12-2004, 08:43 PM

Well the player community generally starts forming their own dueling rituals, ie: spots to go for duels and the like. The only thing that needs to be coded in is a duel command that takes away any alignment hits and maybe allows for insta-res (?).

Players generally can produce their own arenas either within towns, or anywhere they find appropriate, and guard duels with their own friends. (I remember in UO you could duel by the grave yard, and anytime some one tried to interrupt, the "audience" would stop him post haste. I think that any sort of coded arena would be a waste because no one would want to "wait their turn" to duel, it'd just be annoying.

Garth_Dax

08-12-2004, 08:43 PM

Well FlossD, this has been on the features page for a long time ... in case you haven't read it ...

[quote]Will Darkfall have safe zones?
There are no safe zones in Darkfall unless the players themselves create them or seek them out. There is no area where a player cannot be attacked by another player.

There is relative safety in numbers and in staying out of harm

Murray

08-12-2004, 08:52 PM

Well the player community generally starts forming their own dueling rituals, ie: spots to go for duels and the like. The only thing that needs to be coded in is a duel command that takes away any alignment hits and maybe allows for insta-res (?).

Would be fun for gamblers to have a sort of NPC bookie, but that could easily be taken care of by a third party... I just envision spending an evening at the fights, betting on whomever I want and checking out other people's fighting styles.

Lysandor

08-13-2004, 12:54 AM

FlossDragon, I think one of the things you are focusing on (the open PvP) is just one facet of what DFO is hopefully going to be.

The devs main goal is to promote as much freedom in every aspect without limiting the fun.

They dont want to hold our hands, and I dont want them to hold my hand.

Consentual PvP doesnt work...well it doesnt work for people who want fun.

Items and equipment wont be so important that losing them will be a major deathblow to you or your character.

Maybe you wont be big on PvP at first, but I cant imagine anyone not trying it at least once. And if you still hate it, maybe the crafting system is more to your liking.

Kaneski

08-13-2004, 04:43 AM

What I find interesting in this (and the other thread) discussion is the underlying assumption that Floss seems to make. Namely, that the PKs/Griefers/Kiddies, however he wants to call them, will ALWAYS be in greater number or ALWAYS be stronger than the character they try to kill. It's as if the griefers will be on top of the ladder of individual character power. A friend of mine got to play L2 closed beta and one of his favourite activities was to dress up in starter gear and hang around newbie areas, waiting for PKs to show up. Then the fun began and he'd almost always come out on top.

And if not character power, then the assumption seems to be that they'll have the better items to sway balance in their favour. While this may be true for loot-based games, where grinding through dungeons eventually gives you the top-end items, it completely falls through in a player-based economy. I remember in early EVE days, a pirate clan had to switch to energy weapons (no ammunition requirement), because their negative reputation (pirate status) made it impossible for them to buy ammo.

And if you're talking about non-combat characters getting slaughtered by griefers, then they know fully what they face when they get out there (out of an area patrolled by guards). If this was the only MMORPG being made, then you'd have a legitimate agrument for trying to protect some players' interests. Otherwise, go play WoW on the carebear server.

Teth

08-13-2004, 05:27 AM

Sarin

08-13-2004, 05:58 AM

[QUOTE=FlossDragon]

These guys are the dupers, the hackers, and the trash talkers. This board is full of examples of them (just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot) pounding on their chests about how they can hardly wait to ruin the typical player's day.[QUOTE]

Wow in DF you can at least take your own actions into hand for a guy that is griefing. At least you can turn around and knock em dead with maybe a very small alignment hit depending on the circumstances. In these other game you talk about you kill them turn red in the so godly flag system you talk about and now you are the one hosed by the anti grief alert system they have set up, simply because you were getting someone who was grief looting your kills.

Secondly, I am pretty sure most of us here that enjoy open PvP don't really appreciate classified into a group of hackers/cheaters/exploiters. I also see no validity that the player base here are a bunch of flamers, in my eyes I see you as a antagonist trying to provoke the behavior you speak of.

Lastly, I actually see a possilbe few things going on here, you either get a hardon by stirring up the pot ( said this before), or you feel threantened by this game for some reason, meaning you could either be part of a DEV team somewhere or maybe even a Fanboi club that you spoke of in a earlier thread... just a hunch... heres my solution to what you are trying to do here... we'll just simply start ignoring you and not giving you the attention you are looking for by disagrueing with the sole concepts of the game being developed here.

Mieszko

08-13-2004, 10:16 AM

The Alignment system is pleanty harsh enough. The bandits who constantly kill the innocent will be flagged criminals and evil. Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.

My only hope is that if a good aligned person attacks a bad aligned person the bad aligned personc an defend himself, and maybe kill the good aligned person without taking a alignment hit. Thats the thing that bugged me the most about L2. A red can't defend himself without going more red.

geld

08-13-2004, 01:14 PM

What I enjoy most from any game is the immersion. If I feel like I am the character, in a realistic fantasy world, then I can really start to enjoy the game.
The reason the allignment system is important to me is simple, I want the game to 'feel' as realistic as possible.
Take into account that this is an unrealistic world in itself. There is no pain, there is no death, there is no real purpose for conflict. The allignment system can help with the latter. Without an allignment system, who is your enemy? Are the creatures in the forest/swamp/desert/wherever your enemy? I think not, for they have no identity. Are the opposing race your enemy? without allignment system they are just other players like you with no purpose.
So the result of no allignment system is that people will have no reason for conflict.
The allignment system can create the illusion of purpose because you belong to something bigger. You belong to a race which strives for the one thing all races must strive for, survival.
Players who cause grief and woe upon other members of your race will be cast out, as they should, for this is the nature of survival.

Of course the allignment system is unrealistic in itself, but within a world that is already unrealistic (no death), it is the best solution.

I want the allignment sysem to be as realistic as possible though.
I would prefer if a third party (witness) must be present to view the crime, and that person must live to tell the tale, for the allignment hit to occur. For in reality the dead don't speak, so the victim cannot rise again to tell of the hideous deed.

Lysandor

08-13-2004, 01:39 PM

Conflict is never a problem. Even Carebears have teeth.

The only problem with the Alignment system is that people dont quite understands its purpose, which is to provide consequences to various actions.

Murdering 50 people will more than likely net you an evil rating. Killing a Carebear a day to keep the bitch at bay, will probably not make you evil, but wont make you any more good.

FlossDragon

08-13-2004, 03:24 PM

What I find interesting in this (and the other thread) discussion is the underlying assumption that Floss seems to make. Namely, that the PKs/Griefers/Kiddies, however he wants to call them, will ALWAYS be in greater number or ALWAYS be stronger than the character they try to kill. It's as if the griefers will be on top of the ladder of individual character power.

And if not character power, then the assumption seems to be that they'll have the better items to sway balance in their favour. While this may be true for loot-based games, where grinding through dungeons eventually gives you the top-end items, it completely falls through in a player-based economy. I remember in early EVE days, a pirate clan had to switch to energy weapons (no ammunition requirement), because their negative reputation (pirate status) made it impossible for them to buy ammo.

And if you're talking about non-combat characters getting slaughtered by griefers, then they know fully what they face when they get out there (out of an area patrolled by guards). If this was the only MMORPG being made, then you'd have a legitimate agrument for trying to protect some players' interests. Otherwise, go play WoW on the carebear server.

Kaneski, many of the guys in my guild do speak their mind when other players grief them or they realize another guild is using an exploit or hack. We have a very active complaint system that usually gets to a GM or Dev pretty quickly. When you get an email signed by 200+ paying customers you tend to sit up and listen. A number of us are GMs in different games and we are quite organized in making our views (or our whining as so many on this board would put it) known. We generally get action and because we get results we don't usually feel victimized. We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.

Brista

08-13-2004, 04:00 PM

These are the same guys who go on message boards just to start flame wars etc. Why cater to them at all.

Surely the intention of your post is purely to start a flame war

This is a full pvp game. If you've got as far as Wink's thread you know a bit about both the game and the community

Coming here and laboriously explaining to us the merits of a PvP switch is trolling

You have a very odd sense of humour (or possibly you're preternaturally stupid)

Constantine

08-13-2004, 05:01 PM

We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.

If you and your guild get your kicks from hunting down cheaters and hackers and helping GMs and Admins kick them from games, by all means come play Darkfall and get your jollies from it. Every game has a small group of hackers that use exploits or develop illegal 3rd party programs to give themselves unfair advantages.

Hackers use programs to give themselves radar to track down other players, give themselves a superior aiming skills, invulnerability, invisibility, etc. etc. These programs are not limited to the use by player killers. What about the crafter who dupes gold and macros endlessly? What about the bounty hunters and anti-pks that use radar to track down legitimate player killers.

The general mentality is that the crafter isn't hurting anyone, so his cheating can be overlooked. Likewise the bounty hunters are cheating for a noble cause... they are riding the world of "griefers and pks" therefore they are okay.

Player killers are not the same as hackers and cheaters. They are just the unfortunate player base branded with the stigmatism of being cheaters.

Here I sit, a player who has no intention of being a player killer, a bounty hunter or any other major participant in the PvP action in game except perhaps to protect my hometown from a siege. I will end up playing probably one of the "goody two shoes" characters that PKs and RPKs gain great joy in killing. I expect that I will die often and probably that they might even laugh at my corpse and make fun of the "noob roleplayer" whom they just ganked.

Why, I ask, why on earth then am I so adamant about defending a particular group of players who could "grief" me and "ruin" my gameplay experience? Maybe because I don't consider it grief that ruins the experience, but rather an adventure that will keep the game fun and exciting. Perhaps I like the possibility that one day if I wanted I could pick up my sword and go hunt down a few murderers that are known to hide out in the mountains or snap under the pressure of being a "goody two shoes" and go on a reckless killing spree only to later come to my senses and repent. These things just are not options when you restrict people to "switches" and "coded rules".

If you want justice by getting a GM or dev to kick somebody out of the game because of their playstyle, this is not the game for you. If you'd rather find justice on your own terms with the help of a sword, magic spells and the aid of your guild then you might actually enjoy the open playstyle of the game.

Lysandor

08-13-2004, 05:07 PM

There is no freedom if you have to appeal to a higher power to have justice done.

Garth_Dax

08-13-2004, 05:13 PM

Nice Constantine. Good words, both the meaning and the writing. :)

Murray

08-13-2004, 05:21 PM

My only hope is that if a good aligned person attacks a bad aligned person the bad aligned personc an defend himself, and maybe kill the good aligned person without taking a alignment hit. Thats the thing that bugged me the most about L2. A red can't defend himself without going more red.

Somewhere along the way I'm pretty sure it was a dev that posted that there'll be an aggressor flag, so you'll always be free to defend yourself.

Mhorham

08-13-2004, 05:24 PM

PvP needs a purpose and a concequence to have any relevence. Without open pvp the purpose part is crippled. You should Need to fight to gain and maintain control of resources. These resources are things like land to build structures, secure places to bind, resource nodes for crafting and adventure areas for pve content. The concequence side of things can be handled largely by player justice, but only to those who have become established in the game world. For many who do not have a reputable guilds backing player justice does not work. That is where the Alignment system really comes into play.

The Alignment system is there to give a minimum lvl of security to people incapable of recieving the protection of player justice. It provides enough game structure that they can develop their characters within the racial homelands and form guilds that will allow them to deal their own player justice.

Sarin

08-13-2004, 05:28 PM

Mhorham

08-13-2004, 05:37 PM

Somewhere along the way I'm pretty sure it was a dev that posted that there'll be an aggressor flag, so you'll always be free to defend yourself.

Man you guys just dont get it. Thereis no freeking red, blue or green. If a negative aligned character attacked a positive alligned character it does not matter who wins. If your an Ork and your getting bad hits for pking noob Orks you have to reset by killing other races. Go hunt human noobs and you'll get better alignemnt with Ork npc's.

All the races are on a scale. Its a linier progression where Alfar are the most evil vile bastages and Mirdain are pristine panzy pickers. Knock it off with the red green crap already!

Murray

08-13-2004, 05:42 PM

Man you guys just dont get it. Thereis no freeking red, blue or green. If a negative aligned character attacked a positive alligned character it does not matter who wins. If your an Ork and your getting bad hits for pking noob Orks you have to reset by killing other races. Go hunt human noobs and you'll get better alignemnt with Ork npc's.

All the races are on a scale. Its a linier progression where Alfar are the most evil vile bastages and Mirdain are pristine panzy pickers. Knock it off with the red green crap already!

*sigh* I never said anything about your rainbow. You can be any alignment of any race. I don't have the time to dig up the post or FAQ for you, but there is an aggressor flag, by flag I mean a coded flag, not something you fly. If you are attacked by someone, you will not have to worry about taking an alignment hit for killing them.

Mhorham

08-13-2004, 05:44 PM

The only flag ever mentioned was in claus explaination for looting penalties. And I dodnt meen to single you out personaly. This L2/UO version of alignment has got people looking the wrong way at DF.

This game seems to use a progressive system wher races are placed at points along a scale. Values are added or subtracted to your alignment score based on your actions. Race will mater most significantly to this value. Changes in it will move you compared to the normal for your race.

Murray

08-13-2004, 05:57 PM

Being the aggressor of a conflict is also another factor in determining what kind of affect it will have on your alignment, just like what race you are and what race the other party is.

Lysandor

08-14-2004, 12:41 AM

The whole racial enemies thing should play nicely into keeping many PvPers occupied. But there will always be those who want to kill thy neighbor...

Kaneski

08-14-2004, 12:58 AM

Kaneski, many of the guys in my guild do speak their mind when other players grief them or they realize another guild is using an exploit or hack. We have a very active complaint system that usually gets to a GM or Dev pretty quickly. When you get an email signed by 200+ paying customers you tend to sit up and listen. A number of us are GMs in different games and we are quite organized in making our views (or our whining as so many on this board would put it) known. We generally get action and because we get results we don't usually feel victimized. We have been directly responsible for banning abusive players and will continue to be. There is a grim satisfaction bouncing a PK/Hacker out of a game for good--babuy! When you get justice, you don't feel victimized.

*clears throat*

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

What you just described is a group of collective 'waaah' when something they don't like happens. Then, instead of taking retaliation in-game, you do something that NO gamer should ever do - turn it into a real life matter. Now, in the case of geniune hacks and exploit abuse, your group's 'waaah' is generally not needed. People who abuse exploits are usually well-known, and while it may take a couple of days longer for them to disappear without a trace, it still happens 99% of the time. From your post, it's clear that you don't get the results because you're right (or at least not every time), you get them because you have more influence to make things happen - to make others think that you're right, and that's called Fascism. Surely you can see how arbitrarial your use of numbers is and the abuse open to your group - someone from your group gets PKed by someone who was waiting for your group member to be tired and wounded from another fight. In other words - an easy kill. Your group member tells the rest of you about it and immediately you go 'waaah' to the devs/GMs to ban that player. And for what? For timing his attack to his advantage...

Arathalus

08-14-2004, 02:16 AM

[color=#cccccc][font=Verdana]Ok, let me make something extremely clear.

DF will not change its game style to that of a closed pvp system, it will always remain an open pvp system and whining and crying about it will not help in this regard.

Floss, I'm pleased that you see it as your duty to seek out hackers, exploiters and cheats in general, if everyone does this then great, DF will be the game it was always meant to be.

If you don

Phineus

08-14-2004, 02:52 AM

CareBear?!? What exactly have you people been missing? DF = PvP
Don't cry like a bunch of little girls, be like real big boys and girls and handle things your self. As Arath said this is going to be a game where if your having a problem with someone you deal with it, some jerk kills your friend/group member anything you are free to take vengeance upon him for eternity if you should deem necessary. The Dev's are pvp'ers who finally get to make a game for them selves and most likely aren

Constantine

08-14-2004, 03:46 AM

Thank you, Arathalus!

I doubt he'll listen to what you said, anything I've said or what the entire community has been trying to make clear to him all along.

You put what I've been trying to say into words very simply, direct and to the point.

So again... THANK YOU.

This thread has been an eye opener for me though. I am tired of arguing a point with people who do not listen, whether it is Floss or anybody else like him who pops up in the future. It is quite simply an excersize in futility and I see no reason to even waste my time anymore so I am quite literally finished.

Normally I'm not prone to flaming people or resort to name calling, but at the moment I don't care and I'll have my one moment of respite to say what's on my mind.

All you self-righteous carebears can crawl back under the latest EQ expansion and die. I'll see the rest of you in game when it is released.

Murray

08-14-2004, 04:22 AM

Huzzah Arathalus!!!

It sounds so much better when you say it with that Community Tag by your name!!!

Sinfay

08-14-2004, 04:38 AM

Mhorham

08-14-2004, 04:57 AM

there is a guild thing for that.

Konlii

08-14-2004, 05:04 AM

I think setting an alignment for your city's NPCs should be optional, with neutral as the default. But regardless of their alignment, NPCs should NEVER attack or refuse to sell to members of the guild that owns the city. That just doesn't make sense. It's your city. Realistically, if a merchant or a guard doesn't like the people in charge, either they get over it or they go somewhere else. If a merchant refuses to sell to the rulers because the merchant doesn't think they're "good people," he can expect to be arrested (and worse) for insulting the guys in power.

Kaneski

08-14-2004, 05:09 AM

I'll support Konlii on that one. The FAQ (I think) mentions extensive controls and settings for the guildmaster, so hopefully the template for what you described is already implemented.

ibesleepy

08-14-2004, 05:20 AM

The nice thing about SB "open" pvp was accountability was through clans, not code or devs. An enemy nation kills some people from yours, you retaliate, and negotiate an agreement. Errants are killed on sight.

With "artificial" alignment, i mean, where is the real accountability? What happens when two similar race clans are at war with each other? You won't be able to go to your own NPC vendors. End result, both nations with alignment problems from raiding each other. Does that make them bad or evil?

So, in short, "alignment checks" do suck. Give cities and guilds the tools to police their own.

I've been here for around 2 weeks at best, and I know this won't happen. If you attack anothe person of you're race while you're not at war with them they you'll take an alignment hit, but if you attack someone of you're race you are with war at it won't decrease you're alignment.

Sinfay

08-14-2004, 05:29 AM

Konlii

08-14-2004, 05:36 AM

I think you're reading too much into that dev quote. It doesn't actually say that you need approval to go to war. Besides, killing evil characters actually gives you an alignment boost.

Lysandor

08-15-2004, 03:17 AM

Consentual War is a silly idea in a game without Consentual PvP.

Baasha

08-16-2004, 09:21 PM

ibe kinda sleepy to heh But here's a scenario:

from the faq:
"How does alignment come into play when a good clan is at war with another good clan?
Once clans have declared war on each other, no alignment adjustments will occur due to your actions towards members of the clan you are at war with."

What will happen is this: the UberComptons will make a single clanstone with no buildings. They will attack "we are the carebear" clan and not declare war. Since the UberComptons are all already evil aligned and have second accounts with trader mules, they don't need a city that the alignment system is trying to protect. If the "we are the carebear" clan retaliates, they will take an alignment hit. That is how I would circumvent the alignment system, and many would too.

The only fix would be this: allow a clan to freely declare war on any clan they want to, whether the other clan agrees or not...Which is all a non-alignment open system is anyway.

The key thing in Claus's FAQ is that phrase is "declared war on each other"
If that means the other clan needs to approve of your war, the alignment system won't work. If it does not need approval, then everything is ok.

Couple notes - You get an alignment BOOST for killing evil aligned characters AND if they aren't evil aligned, then you simply declare war BACK on them to avoid taking an alignment hit for retaliating. Not exactly a way around that system, now is there?

I left Shadowbane because there were no consequences for PvP/PKing indiscriminantly. I played L2, but was disillusioned due to the lack of ability to fight back and the silliness of exponential Karma that you continue to garner. (In L2, every time you PK, you get a larger amount of Karma<alignment> that can never be reset.)

Time should heal all wounds, so to speak... L2 would be perfect if they did four things...(IMHO)

1. Allowed a red(evil toon) to defend themselves, i.e. kill their attackers (I.E. DFO's Aggressor flag).
2. Based the amount Karma you gain from a PK on the FREQUENCY of PK's, rather than total amount of PK's. (I.E. DFO's Alignment correction methods)
3. Reduced the EXP penalty associated with all PvP/PK deaths (I.E. DFO has no levels)
4. Halved the costs of equipment, slightly reducing the COMPLETE economy based power structure. (I.E. DFO's crafting is based on interest and research rather than farming MOBs constantly)

In short, Darkfall Online is exponentially better than L2 with regards to ALL aspects of PvP/PK. Let's give it a chance and an open mind.

Jangang

08-16-2004, 09:54 PM

I'm 100% sure that you don't need the other clan to aprove a declaration of war. If you did it wouldn't be called a declaration, it would be called a negotiation.

Lysandor

08-20-2004, 11:01 AM

Yes, consentual war doesnt make sense in a game with consensual PvP.

lurifaxa

08-20-2004, 02:45 PM

Well Consentual clan-guild-city wars does not belong in DF.
Anybody shold be able to declare war on any time at any time!

Humongous

08-20-2004, 03:41 PM

I like the idea of racial starting cities were new players are relatively safe. I'm assuming the developers will create powerful enough nps guards ect. to prevent most griefing. I like that because its reasonable to assume relative safety in the city. Leave the city however, and things change. You had better be prepared.

Regarding full looting. I can't wait. I think it will help prevent mindless attacks because dying will be a nasty penalty. The key is, the death penalty must be a deterrent. Also, I hope it will be difficult to determine a players skill level, as this will also make some griefers question the desire to attack others. Although I'm not sure about this one.

One thing also, how big the difference will be between the hardcore and causal gamer? There will always be groups of hardcore gamers who love to go PvP raiding. They will always be tough to beat and that will never change. But that's the game. Live and learn and move on. Become smarter, grow your toon, and one day maybe get revenge.

Sounds like fun to me. :D

peatymoorland

08-21-2004, 11:46 PM

What you said there is absurd. If I don't want to participate in PvP, it is my choice. Just because I don't want some weenie to sneak up behind me while I am in the middle of a battle and low on health to PK me, doesn't make me a carebear. If I want to deal with that kind of mentality I could just as easily hop in my car and hit the local freeway. There are plenty of people there that will cut me off, box me in and then pace me, etc. The fact is the basic nature of the average person nowdays is crap. And I don't log into a game to deal with that, I PAY to play a game cause it is supposed to be fun. What is fun for you might not be fun to me. Play Lineage 2 and you will see people that farm money to sell it for US dollars. Money comes easier at lower levels so when a farmer gets out of the good money making range he will delevel. So it is no loss at all for a farmer to die, hence when they go on a PK rampage when you finally kill them that is what they wanted, they lost nothing. But for all the people they PK they lost time. It isn't even rewarding to kill somebody like that. Games are supposed to be fun, not a second job. I certainly wouldn't PAY to take on a second job, and I don't know many people that would.

Goose

08-22-2004, 12:06 AM

What you said there is absurd. If I don't want to participate in PvP, it is my choice. Just because I don't want some weenie to sneak up behind me while I am in the middle of a battle and low on health to PK me, doesn't make me a carebear.

If you don't want to PvP it definately is your choice....to not play DF and find another game that you'll enjoy. Not wanting to die to a weenie who choses to kill you when the opportunity is ripe might not make you a carebear. But it may mean you won't enjoy this game. DF, as I see it, is designed for people who like all forms of PvP to include race wars, guild wars, and your basic killing someone to get their stuff. If you expect to die and don't let it bother you, prepare for it by having friends and spare gear, and can deal with the fact that you're not really safe anywhere, this is the game for you.

Regulator

09-22-2004, 11:10 PM

There it is, you think you're special, you should be able to go anywhere you want, get into anyone's face you want and they shouldn't be able to touch you unless you say it's OK. So if you're wandering through the woods, alone, picking flowers or whatever, and you stumble into a group of bandits, they should have written permission to be able to kill you and take your stuff?

That's exactly why people turn away from games like L2, because you can't kill off the foolish or get rid of the annoying punks of the world without taking severe character penalties.

The Alignment system is pleanty harsh enough. The bandits who constantly kill the innocent will be flagged criminals and evil. Johnny Do-Gooders will be able to hunt down these bandits and actually boost their alignment and be well rewarded with their loot. Maybe Johnny Do-Gooder will even return some of your lost posessions to you if you're nice enough.
Actually you can kill anyone you want anytime you want in L2 I do it all the time just not in towns :(.

Lysandor

09-22-2004, 11:43 PM

L2 isn't balanced PvP though...right?

Regulator

09-22-2004, 11:56 PM

Yeah Its actually very balanced in my mind. You just need stratigies you can go into battle with the same weapons and armor again each class with certain classes. The only thing I hate about pvp in L2 is how lvls take place in PVP its so stupid, cuz u need to be withign 3 lvls to have a chance 90% of the time.

Axull

09-23-2004, 12:56 AM

I think many players miss an important aspect of open pvp with an alignment system; they open many role playing options for players. How can I really be an evil player in a game that doesn't allow me to kill innocent players? How am I facing the consequences of being evil if I walk around in any town just like any other player (Without alignment)? Not to mention, it is funner. It is funner to be hunting a group of mobs when a murderer walks around the corner, that is intense.

Lysandor

09-23-2004, 01:59 AM

I didn't like how SWG did it personally. The whole Covert/Overt thing got old.

Regulator

09-23-2004, 02:18 AM

Yeah I knwo what you mean I can remeber how many times I've been at ice in UO in a party killing stuff when a red comes running over and before I knwo my parties gone yelling red red red and now its a 1on1.

KorumMaker

12-19-2004, 04:31 PM

I know this is an old thread, but I just HAD to put my 2 cents in... (unfortunately for you all, my 2 cents is usually increased by inflation by quite a bit)

My thought. When I first heard of online games at all, it was after years of paper/pencil gaming. The games I heard of were called muds. Didn't really interest me, cause I couldn't feel immersed in text gaming. (With text gaming, one cannot see the look on another's face, or hear their breath catch when you calmly threaten their person, objects, or wealth.) Then came one player graphical games, which were ok, I played many of them, but still needed other human involvement, so still not my style. When UO came out, I jumped on. Still small graphically, but more people to interact with than I could at my table at home.. (big game was 14 people)

Point is, I always envisioned a game that was alot like the pencil/paper games of my gaming youth... In these games, one player got pissed at an npc or another player? You played it out to its logical conclusion. Role-played if you will... There were laws in place, but the truly bad-ass didn't give a damn. I remember one scenario that was a long standing rivalry was a monk-type I was playing constantly outwitting a barbarian played by another person. I think the origional argument was over some donations I had made to the monastary out of the groups "loot". He, of course went balistic on me, I thumped him on the head. He woke up, I suggested he calm down and talk, he went balistic again, I got lucky, and pulled out his windpipe. He cashed in a favor of a deity, woke up and it was on and off for a year or more...
This was very fun. The point is, we weren't griefing each other, we were playing our characters...
This is very different from online griefers today, they may say they are "roleplaying" but I find alot of them must be "roleplaying" a mass murdering serial killer. Sure, that is how they enjoy their 10 bucks a month or whatever, but it is at a cost for everyone else they interact with... If they interact with 150 people in that month, that is quite a few peoples money wasted for them to be assholes.
So DarkFall's checks and balances system, while still allowing Full PvP, is also going to cut down on the mass murderer types... They will still be out there, but they will be much rarer in DF I think. Reason: "Evil" characters will find it harder to goto a town (even racially friendly) unless they are alfar. (And alfar will not be welcome in any other racial town I have heard) W/O towns, it will be harder to process resources, buy gear, sell loot, fix armor/weapons, etc. etc. This will force them into a situation where if they don't get frustrated and leave, the easiest path for them to follow may be to team up with others like themselves, make an evil clan, and make an evil clan town.... Thereby they are thrust back into the system. Now they can declare war on other clans, make their own laws, set their own standards, etc...
I am not saying this is the only scenario, but it will be the path of least resistance in DarkFall. There will be fringe groups, or loners. But these will comprise probably a minority of the players. Lets face it, this game is going to attract and hold mostly those that want mass warfare. Nothing wrong with that! Sounds like fun to me, and half the fun will be building up your clans and towns to get to the stage of mass warfare :) Anyway, as far as mass murderers, griefers, etc. etc. I am not too worried. I think the checks and balances system is going to work in the long run.

-Korum

Falokis

12-19-2004, 07:43 PM

This is very different from online griefers today, they may say they are "roleplaying" but I find alot of them must be "roleplaying" a mass murdering serial killer. Sure, that is how they enjoy their 10 bucks a month or whatever, but it is at a cost for everyone else they interact with... If they interact with 150 people in that month, that is quite a few peoples money wasted for them to be assholes.
So DarkFall's checks and balances system, while still allowing Full PvP, is also going to cut down on the mass murderer types... They will still be out there, but they will be much rarer in DF I think. Reason: "Evil" characters will find it harder to goto a town (even racially friendly) unless they are alfar. (And alfar will not be welcome in any other racial town I have heard) W/O towns, it will be harder to process resources, buy gear, sell loot, fix armor/weapons, etc. etc. This will force them into a situation where if they don't get frustrated and leave, the easiest path for them to follow may be to team up with others like themselves, make an evil clan, and make an evil clan town.... Thereby they are thrust back into the system. Now they can declare war on other clans, make their own laws, set their own standards, etc...
I am not saying this is the only scenario, but it will be the path of least resistance in DarkFall. There will be fringe groups, or loners. But these will comprise probably a minority of the players. Lets face it, this game is going to attract and hold mostly those that want mass warfare. Nothing wrong with that! Sounds like fun to me, and half the fun will be building up your clans and towns to get to the stage of mass warfare :) Anyway, as far as mass murderers, griefers, etc. etc. I am not too worried. I think the checks and balances system is going to work in the long run.

-KorumYou hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what I want. I don't want to run the players out of the game that want to be evil. I want to make it hard enough on them so they cannot survive solo for the whole game. I want it so they HAVE to group together and HAVE to have a town for trade and survival. It can be a hidden from the main map or whatever. I just want something that can be attacked to slow them down for awhile. I don't want to run them out of the game, I just want the ability to hurt them back and let them know they pissed someone off. I like rpks. They add spice.

Lysandor

03-08-2005, 01:18 PM

Amen, don't prohibit people from being assholes, just make them pay reasonable consequences.

Ceridwenn

03-09-2005, 06:37 PM

I'm currently playing Eve, in wich you can attack anyone, anywhere. Though if you attack someone in a system with a security lvl above a certain lvl you will get the cops on your arse. And eventually get wanted if you keep it up.
That's a much better system than the "no hitting on the n00b player or God will bann your account" that DnL are proposing.
the only way to attack in high security is to declare war. Then you can attack AND be attacked anywhere.
Can that be exploited? Yes, there are some corps(guilds) that try to declare war on every n00b corp. But they only end up having to fight 10 other corps that starts war with them and have 10 times the number against them. And by joining an alliance, you will have the whole alliance backing you up.

So I say full PvP with standing towards factions and you will get a world for everyone.
And besides, hauling a wagon full of mined ore just gets more interesting if there are rouge bandits on the route. That will lead to alliance and protection letters and basically, more roleplaying.

Gar

03-17-2005, 02:11 AM

Playing the game Darkfall is pretty much based on, I can tell you what will happen. It's happened for the past ten years of the game I play. It's happened in Asheron's Call, UO, and Shadowbane. The assholes and griefers will not be stopped by any game rule. They won't ever leave. After the game's design flaws, these griefers will be the driving force behind driving away new players. They will always outnumber the non-griefers, and more than likely they'll be more organized. Darkfall's survival really depends on whether or not the rest of the players can fight the good fight for pretty much DF's entire existence. I foresee many problems, like this Alignment System. The griefers will abuse every loophole possible to make you suffer. That's what they do.

Good luck with that, anyway :o

Lysandor

03-17-2005, 05:31 AM

I don't see what the difficulty would be, unless a 'griefer' goaded you into killing him in a racial capital and you get owned by the guards. But then really...whose weakness was that?

Killing other people is not griefing.

Gar

03-17-2005, 08:13 PM

Leahn

03-18-2005, 03:59 PM

I'm not talking about just killing people. Griefers are not out to kill you - they're out to make you feel bad. They get jollies from ruining your day. They are the American teenager.

I am not American, but I must say, it was a very bad comment.

The Alignment System is just going to be abused. If i was this griefer group, I'd pick a race that was the same as the "good guys", and harass the crap out of everyone else. I'd drive away all the Ork newbies, while you Dwarf good guys can't do a damn thing.

Forgive, sir, but I could not understand your point. Do you think that the Ork oldbies won't fight you back? First of all, do you REALLY think that you will reach alive the Orkish newbie area (which will probably be the racial capital) and harass them unpunished being a Dwarf? Man! You gotta be kidding me! Besides, we can always kill the Alfar. This is why they were created, after all. To be killed by everyone. No whining allowed. Fighting back allowed. Otherwise it would be no fun. The fact that you can describe yourself doing it in the 1st person worries me a lot, too.

Fikk

03-18-2005, 06:11 PM

No that comment about American teenagers sounds about right.

Preston

03-18-2005, 06:12 PM

I'm not talking about just killing people. Griefers are not out to kill you - they're out to make you feel bad. They get jollies from ruining your day. They are the American teenager.

The Alignment System is just going to be abused. If i was this griefer group, I'd pick a race that was the same as the "good guys", and harass the crap out of everyone else. I'd drive away all the Ork newbies, while you Dwarf good guys can't do a damn thing. Killing is the least evil that falls under "harassing". Imagine a whole group of people who scream profanities, talk smack constantly, cheat wherever possible (and simply come back when they get banned, it's easy), and generally do as much as they can to ruin the day of everyone in reach? It's going to happen, it always does. New players are not going to stay in such a world.

You'll be forced to join up with the side of people that you respect, who fight the griefers. The game is then rendered pointless, as you're fighting people you don't care about (and it will be that way forever, since griefers never leave as long as you hate them). When you don't care about who you're fighting, why play the game?

edit: It doesn't have to happen this way, but it always has before. It'd be best not to provide things that will so easily be abused, like this Alignment System. There are other and better ways to do what the AS is intended for.

I don't think this will happen at all. The whole point of Darkfall is to "harass" the enemy race as much as possible. If I'm a dwarf and I have a hankering for fresh Ork meat at the end of my axe, so be it. Will I be able to waltz into Ork territory and run right up to the newbie hunting areas near their racial capital and start swinging? If I'm lucky enough to make it there more than likely I wouldn't live past my first swing. If anyone sees me, every Ork within a hundred mile radius will know where I'm at and want to kill me. On top of that there will be Ork guards running around everywhere.

Besides, I bet you anything any Ork "newbies" would attack me at first sight just to get the chance to kill their first dwarf.

Vinadil

03-18-2005, 07:18 PM

Maybe I missed a whole genre of PvP games in which these "griefers" ruled the world... but I never met them in the only real PvP game I have played... SB. They existed some in DAoC, L2, and even in WoW... but that is just because I can't kill them or get penalized for protecting myself from them in those games...

I have yet to see a griefer (IE someone bent on stopping me from having fun through cursing, following me around, being a jerk etc.) that cannot be stopped by either a) the handy /ignore command, b) MOVING to a different spot in the world, or c) killing him and his friends repeatedly until THEY move.

I don't know why people think that online games are going to be different than real life. How do you people deal with rude individuals in the real world? Do you happen to live in that special place that has NO rude people? Or do you devise ways to not be around them and when you do get trapped by one you do what you have to do to get away? It is not really so different in the gaming world. As long as the game provides a way to "get away" then you will have no problems with griefers... the alignment system is (hopefully) not so stringent that it will become a barrier of safety for griefers... and we really won't know til we play.

Preston

03-18-2005, 08:59 PM

Black Swordsman

03-20-2005, 02:14 AM

Well, i wouldnt worry about those types of gamers, simply because a person like that wouldnt know if the person they were about to grief far outskilled them or not, it would be a risk i guess they would weigh if they wanted to take.

Gorheru

03-20-2005, 04:42 AM

I just hope the alignment system isn't stringent, allowing for conflict between anyone anytime without suddenly changing alignment from Good to Neutral, especially if one is provoked. Also, since DFO is player-driven then racial wars or variations thereof will happen. Mercenaires, multi-racial guilds, and other guild variations will form and reform. I don't agree that any MMORPG will thrive longterm if everyone of a particular race is forced, through game design, to get along and takes sides unquestioningly. Shadowbane succeeded in allowing guilds and nations to rise and fall, entirely based on the players involved and their motives. Griefers were simply known and desposed of, and if not then perhaps your guild wasn't organized (unfortunately a very common case). Worst case scenario you lost your city and simply joined another or remained errant on a vengeful path. Allowing one to SEE the alignment is setting an artificial restraint, which I though this game was trying to avoid in character development.

pronkyou2

08-28-2005, 07:37 PM

Perhaps to avoid a hit to alignment if you're just defending yourself from homoracial killers, there could be the killing blow style, where they become incapacitated once they are down to a certain amount of health, either number or percentage, and killers would likely kill at this point. Although there's still a possibility to kill too quickly for it to get to this point... And you would be able to loot only after death? Or do you think a good idea would be to loot incapped players... I've never seen this system used well, so it's possible, albeit very unlikely, or they would have implemented it already. I guess that turned into more of a rant. But that's still more for 'carebears'. I don't care about the hit, 'cause I'll kill you if you ever try to kill me. Loot and piss on your corpse. :D ;)

Vehementi

08-28-2005, 09:30 PM

just read the Wink in shadowbane thread for an example of a real idiot

Hahahahahaha!! <tribes> You idiot! </tribes>

Nefastus

08-28-2005, 10:48 PM

I disagree that current Alignment System is good. I still insist that Alignment Penalty should be issued ONLY if a victim reports the crime to a local NPC Guard Outpost. With full Alignment System you limit out Sparrying, Tournaments, Duels, and so on. At least with Report System both groups would be on even grounds.

Marrik

08-29-2005, 01:42 AM

I think it is dropping it right down something other than a well.

I don't care what two consenting adults do online, just don't bother me. The PvP flag system works fine--if you want to PvP you can. you just can't abuse other players.

Why can't you see the obvious?

ok, so if thats what you want, WHY DID YOU COME TO A GAME THATS CLAIM TO FAME IS THAT ITS A FULL PVP FULL LOOT GAME??

Marrik

08-29-2005, 01:46 AM

Gloomrender

08-29-2005, 02:44 AM

Griefers are gonna be in every pvp game, theres really nothing you can do to prevent it. But it doesnt matter, and ill tell you all why.

Someone mentioned that in SB there werent many real griefers, and there werent. Thats because in SB there was ACCOUNTABILITY. If you gank someone, then his guild can come and camp your corpse for the whole night, or even burn down your frickin home!

And Darkfall will be similar with alignment and town accountability. Smart players will be wise in what actions they take, or face the consequences of idiocy. Because other smart players can take down names :D

Khael[SUN]

08-29-2005, 12:37 PM

JesustehREd

08-29-2005, 07:59 PM

I disagree that current Alignment System is good. I still insist that Alignment Penalty should be issued ONLY if a victim reports the crime to a local NPC Guard Outpost.

Indeed, a crime isn't really a crime if it never gets reported, leave it up to the individual whether he wants that persons reputation tarnished. What if you and a friend are hunting and since the game is twitch he shoots you in the back of the head killing you? Do you really want to see your friend lose rep from the accident, and what about when you whack his ass at a later date to repay the offense, do you want to take a rep hit for that?

All in all I think reporting would be a nice element to the system, kinda like in SB where pkers got away with their actions unless the person they killed went to the tree, purchased a warrant and gave it to a member of the IC to have them make that individual KoS.

Acetrix

08-29-2005, 08:25 PM

Reporting could still be abused tho if there was no Tournament mode. Like that both players set the alignment penalty off.

Nefastus

08-29-2005, 08:28 PM

Reporting could still be abused tho if there was no Tournament mode. Like that both players set the alignment penalty off.

How could reporting system be abused? I mean, I respect what you are saying, but I can't imagine a situation and reason for abusement of report system.

Acetrix

08-29-2005, 08:33 PM

Hehe, not that it would be abused. I meant like tournament players could be killed on tournaments and then just report it to npc outpost. So even if you r training your recruits, they could report you. And i dun wanna get alignment penalty just because that recruit is a complete jackass, that joined clan just to grief ppl. :/

I say there should really be smth like Duel mode, if reporting system was implemented.

BalanceFx

08-29-2005, 10:01 PM

Falokis

08-29-2005, 11:24 PM

All in all an alignment system is pointless and artficially restricts our freedom as players. We should be able to creep through our town through the dead of night after curfew to burgle the rich baron. And yes maybe we'll get caught... But we shouldn't defintely get caught.

Let the players police the players... To some degree most stories don't even make sense when played in their artfical world. The great menace of evil King Nordstrom came to the Good Kings castle and killed him sending a sliver of hate throughout the world forever. When in reality... This evil red king guy tried to come to town but he was evil and the guards autokilled. He respawned 17 times before he realized he can't make it to the good kings castle while he's evil. So he spent all night befriending rabbits and giving them carrots until he was good. Once he was blue he went to the kings castle and killed him which turned him red, which made the guards kill him and now they are both spawned in the cemetary and have been fighting there all day...I don't see how this is any different than just placing a name or guild on the KOS in shadowbane. Which I might add no one bitched about for some reason. The only thing you cannot change about the guards is the autokill of certain races. Killing good or evil of the same race is up to you. If a king was 'good' why the hell wouldn't his guards auto kill an 'evil' player. So, how is this limiting you again? Are you a different race or the same?

Lysandor

08-30-2005, 01:42 AM

Hehe, thread resurrection wins.

Knight

09-11-2005, 01:24 PM

If Darkfall turns out the way it claims, and levels truly don't matter. Then the griefers and the pkers are not going to mean much. I haven't seen anyone yet (though I passed up half the posts admitedly) that has mentioned that the pkers and the griefers often rely on being max level characters with the most expensive gear. If darkfall is what it claims to be, you only have to worry about a pker if your afk taking a piss or not paying attention while you try to rp with your helmet off (byebye head)

You can't bitch about getting player killed, especially repeatedly, with the system Darkfall is going to have. A lot of people don't mind dying, It's dying from someone 30 levels higher than you that you had no chance of defending yourself against. And you can't bitch about carebears and peopl ewanting to nerf pvp when your that guy that's 30 levels higher killing people that can't defend yourself because you lack any real skill.

I think darkfall has pulled off the best pvp system to date. You can pk easily, just don't expect that dwarf to roll over and die so easily, or you might be walking with a stump. I look forward to fighting AND killing people because I know it will be because I had the skill to do so, not the equipement.

P.s. A true pker or pvper will accept an evil alignment and gloat that he ganked 300 people in a month in darkfall, not sit and bitch about alignment hits. People that brag about pking someone and then bitch about an alignment system in the same breath are foolish. Your not losing points, its not trammel.

:ninja: Player Killing
So someone is being an annoying little cuss? Knock off their head, walk away, kill one pker, your alignment is perfect again.

So someone is ambushing people? They arn't any more powerful than you. Fight them, if you die, oh well, its not like you got flamed at level 20 by a level 80, you lost a battle fair and square.

The way I see it, Darkfall is going be be something like this

Superior Semi-skilled Numbers < Skill < Zerging
and
Skill < Experience < Gear

If there are no levels, then there remain only a couple or so serious ways in which you will lose a battle.
1) You suck, or just having a sucky day, but probably because you suck
2) Outnumbered, a lot, like 10 to 1, and you trip, on your shoelace
3) You forgot your sword, and forget that you have 2 hands
4) You get knifed in back, and let him stab you repeatedly.
5) Once again, you suck = you die, or run off crying.

:ninja: Dueling
As for dueling or defending yourself and everyhting else taking a hit from the alignment system, I don't see why it would. Make it so your alignment won't decrease if you attack someone AFTER they attack you. And not that hard to put something like a duel button in; select person, click duel, they get invited to a duel, they accept, you fight without fear of alignment hit. Heck add in options for non-loot and loot duels and you should keep both sides happy.

:ninja: Guild combat
And of course there would a method so guilds at war wouldn't take hits to their alignment, I mean you know they already have that in, that's just a given, couldn't have pvp without it. Maybe they are doing some method where a guild leader can declare war and then all members can attack without fear. Then to keep people from using the guild war/battle function to just list all other guilds as enemies, you make it so anyone you list as an enemy can automatically kill you as well wihtout suffering a hit to alignment. I'm almost positive they already have this in place.

:ninja: Rez?
And did someone resurrect this thread after 5 months? Wow, and I thought I was a troll.

Speady

09-11-2005, 01:35 PM

If Darkfall turns out the way it claims, and levels truly don't matter. Then the griefers and the pkers are not going to mean much. I haven't seen anyone yet (though I passed up half the posts admitedly) that has mentioned that the pkers and the griefers often rely on being max level characters with the most expensive gear. If darkfall is what it claims to be, you only have to worry about a pker if your afk taking a piss or not paying attention while you try to rp with your helmet off (byebye head)

:ninja: Player Killing
So someone is being an annoying little cuss? Knock off their head, walk away, kill one pker, your alignment is perfect again.

So someone is ambushing people? They arn't any more powerful than you. Fight them, if you die, oh well, its not like you got flamed at level 20 by a level 80, you lost a battle fair and square.

The way I see it, Darkfall is going be be something like this

Superior Semi-skilled Numbers < Skill < Zerging
and
Skill < Experience < Gear

If there are no levels, then there remain only a couple no so serious ways in which you will lose a battle.
1) You suck, or just having a sucky day, but probably because you suck
2) Outnumbered, a lot, like 10 to 1, and you trip, on your shoelace
3) You forgot your sword, and forget that you have 2 hands
4) You get knifed in back, and let him stab you repeatedly.
5) Once again, you suck = you die, or run off crying.

:ninja: Dueling
As for dueling or defending yourself and everyhting else taking a hit from the alignment system, I don't see why it would. Make it so your alignment won't decrease if you attack someone AFTER they attack you. And not that hard to put something like a duel button in; select person, click duel, they get invited to a duel, they accept, you fight without fear of alignment hit. Heck add in options for non-loot and loot duels and you should keep both sides happy.

:ninja: Guild combat
And of course there would a method so guilds at war wouldn't take hits to their alignment, I mean you know they already have that in, that's just a given, couldn't have pvp without it. Maybe they aredoing some method where a guild leader can declare war and then all members can attack without fear. Then to keep people from using the guild war/battle function to just list all other guilds as enemies, you make it so anyone you list as an enemy can automatically kill you as well wihtout suffering a hit to alignment. I'm almost positive they already have htis in place.

:ninja: Rez?
And did someone resurrect this thread after 5 months? Wow, and I thought I was a troll.

(this isnt ment to be rude or anything) but IMO who the f*ck cares about alignment except your own. I dont wanna be allies with anyone, maybe orks but thats about it.

adding on to your reasons people lose battles.. I dont think anyone will forget a sword that would be just the most stupid thing anyone could ever possibly do.. (i'm not flameing you just btw) I think people are gonna lose battles because yes THEY SUCK.. This is going to be a skill based game or

|-|How well you use the skills you have chosen|-| and how good you are at aiming (ranged or casting) and how good are you at spamming the attack key on someones face.

I'm now starting to not see how a really crappy player can have no problem killing a skilled player.. all your doing is probably jumping around and spamming the attack key. I want to see the Dev's make it so that it does make a difference if your skilled or not.